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Brawl's Not a Competitive Fighter

Vermanubis

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...or so the nutsacks who deem themselves "fighting game purists/buffs/*homo name*" say. I'm not too sure about everyone here, but, loving Smash and the community as much as I do, it makes me want to throttle some *****es when something like that is so callously claimed. Smash Bros. pioneered into a completely different dimension of game, but retained the fundaments of fighting games. Problem is, that the archetype runs so deep, that people often refuse to acknowledge Brawl as a legitimate, complex fighting game. For a while now I've wanted to take an in-depth look into what makes Smash Bros. so unique amongst other fighters. What makes it the game we've all come to love and value over all the other competition. My goal today is to analyze the facets that make Smash Bros. Smash Bros., and what makes every other fighting game a Street Fighter/Tekken clone by comparison. Hopefully I can articulate well enough that this may be the "go-to" post if you ever want to suckerpunch someone in the shame gland for talking out of their *****.

Let's see what we'll be covering:

A) Archetypes of fighting games
B) What Smash brings to the table
C) Why Smash is, holistically, just as (if not more so) competitive and legit a fighter than any other on the market

ARCHETYPES OF FIGHTING GAMES

As we all know, being the fighting game fans we are (most of us anyway) fighting games come in all shapes and sizes; not a single one is the same in many respects. We have Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, etc. Each game offers its own unique flavor to the fighting game archetype. But therein lies the problem. Each one simply tweaks and builds on the archetype; they never actually change it or add a new dimension to it. With this in mind, let's look at some of the general facets of these fighting games.

Let's start off with the primary objective in most fighters. Each opponent is given a health bar, and you have to find a way to deplete your opponent's before they deplete yours. Once you hit the opponent enough, they die and you win. Pretty vanilla. Now let's look at variables that can affect this or make it more interesting. There are none. It comes down to simply putting out more force. Due to restrictions such as being grounded, and not moving very fast, this removes a major could-be facet from the fray of most fighting games. It comes down to working in a little box in close quarters. A Judo match would be a good analogy. This brings up a few more points.

Stages. The stages in most fighters change almost none, with the exception of minor stage hazards. In Soul Calibur we have ring-outs, which are the gayest thing God ever put on this earth. In DoA we have the occasional electric fence that you can wall combo someone on to death with Jan Lee. Again, nothing too special; nothing that forces the players to adapt and cope. Lastly, we take a look at unique characters. The one thing that arguably ties fightings games together in the most meaningful way, is how the characters operate. The only thing separating most of these games though, is not how unique the characters are, rather, what system the characters fight with.

A direct-counter system like Soul Calibur. A pressure system like Street Fighter. A combo-heavy system like Mortal Kombat. A juggle system like Tekken. But what is always kept the same, is the similarities that tie each character together. Every character has a basic set of moves that don't deviate from one another: punch and kick variations (such as high/low kick, strong/weak punch, etc.) with a character specific special move set. Ryu and Ken's Hadouken, Cyrax's cyber net and detonators, etc. Most of the time, speed is not applicable, due to a confined setting. These are just a few of many character unique traits that are absent from a lot of fighters.

All that said, let's recapitulate in an abridged version. Fighting games as we know them adhere to a strict pattern. Differences between characters usually go only as far as special moves, and similar moves with slightly different functions. The dimensions of the game remain confined to close-quarters fisticuffs, which automatically alleviates potential dimensions. It does, ultimately, boil down to outputting more force than your opponent.

The general fighting game archetype has been tweaked here and there, but it has almost never changed. You are confined to an unremarkable arena, in which you're forced to strongarm your opponent in close range. There are just, plain and simply, a lot of restrictions, especially in movement and freedom. Trademarks include what I like to call "dial-a-combo", in which a button sequence results in a combo. Oftentimes, a combo's intended implementation is unrealistic to execute, but its pseudo-complexity belies its unrealistic nature. Killer Instinct Gold is a good example. Fulgore had at least 50 auto-doubles, and 100 combos, but none but one were ever used. Why? Because it was the strongest, and covered the most bases. In other words, just because a game like Soul Calibur has 8,000 different combinations, does not mean it is complex, despite it giving that illusion. If you ever watch an SCIV match, you'll see Hilde trying to do her auto-ring-out and a Yoshimitsu trying to spam her to death.

Overall, some fighters have a lot to offer. But the reality is that many of them are one-in-the-same in many regards. Each one operates on a rock-paper-scissors system, and that system alone. Each one only modifying the archetype slightly.

WHAT MAKES SMASH UNIQUE

Now for the interesting part. As we discussed before, almost every fighter out there gives its own flavor of ice cream, but that's the problem: they're all still ice cream. With Smash, it takes the general concept of implementing an arsenal of moves to defeat your opponent, but removes the restrictions of the fighting game archetype. Let's explore a bit what these restrictions are, and how Smash transcends them to add a whole new level of gameplay.

Let's just make a quick list of unique traits that Smash possesses above other fighters. Forgive me if I miss a few.

-Unique stages
-Completely unique characters
-Counterpicks
-Range and priority playing a huge role due to unique character traits
-Survival and recovery
-Free-roam
-Creativity methodologies
-DI
-Tier Lists

Now, time to delve into each facet.

Unique stages: As previously mentioned, most fighters have different stages for the sole purpose of scenery change, with an occasional gimmick. Smash flips this concept upside-down. Smash is the foremost game in its league/genre to allow the stage to play a pivotal role in your victory. Having the mobility and freedom to run, jump and everything in between allows for some creative implementations. Stages that cater to different character's latent abilities. Norfair being great for Ganon because it makes his otherwise inadequate recovery, adequate. Final Destination being the Diddy brothel (because if he picks it, that means you didn't ban it, so the "****" was consensual, so you're not a victim, you're just his ***** now) thanks to there being no way to effectively cirumvent the bananas strewn about the expanse of the stage. This all makes it so each character has to adapt a strategy to that stage, and work use his/her resources to the best of his/her ability.

Unique characters: In most fighters I've ever seen, as mentioned in the previous section, characters differ, but how much? Minor differences do exist, such as a different animation for the same class of move, but they're often too negligible to notice. Smash, again, takes the core concept to the next level by giving the characters differing, well, everything. No single character has a single similar trait aside from clones. Ike is, by all means, the antithesis of Fox. Ike's move implementations are completely alien to what Fox's are. The only similarity is the general direction in which each attack goes. Same goes for every character. These differences include weight class, KO moves, trajectories, framerates, planes, gravitation (falling speed, etc.), size, hitboxes, range, etc. I could go on for hours. The characters are fettered by models only in the sense that they have the same amount of moves and each move corresponds with the direction which is pushed, i.e. forward = fair.

By and large, Smash is Smash primarily due to the vast uniqueness of each and every character. This makes it so a player has to adapt to not only a playstyle, but the character accompanied by it as well. Each one necessitates a new way of thinking and playing. Due to the variables given by the stages and other characters, every match-up is infinitely different and each move interaction has to be known, adding quite a lot of depth to the equation.

Counterpicks: Smash is probably the only fighter in the world that has such a vivid counterpick system. Due to each character transcending uniformity, and every mode of attack being available through any given character, a system consequently arises that feeds one character's strength and the other's weakness in a large way. Sure, there are other fighters with counterpick systems, no doubt, but due to aforementioned reasons, I find it difficult to believe as they're... shall we say "intimate". What I mean by intimate is that each character interacts on the minutest of levels, whereas in many other fighters, counterpicks are based more on countering styles from my experience.

Precision: Hitboxes in Smash come in all shapes and sizes. Their knockback power no different. What these unique hitboxes and priorities create is a rock-paper-scissors system for each move. It adds the dimension of precision and prediction and vivifies them. If your opponent is above you, and his dair ***** your uair, then you find a way around it, or use a less conventional move by being creative.

Survival and Recovery: Yet another big'n. This is probably the second most important dimension of Smash gameplay. What this concept of survival and recovery does, is it makes you and your opponent work for your kills. No longer will simply overpowering your opponent suffice. You will need to think, predict and act quickly to successfully kill your opponent. Beautiful thing is, that thanks to no boxed-in confines, if you're near death, you can implement a strong defensive game. You have to find a way to both survive, and concurrently catch your opponent in a vulnerable state to kill them instead of just spamming hadoukens while the other guy hides in the corner crouch-blocking. It also adds a great deal of longevity to matches.

Free-roam: I've mentioned this many times already, but I don't believe I've given a full explanation as to why it's so terrific. What makes your freedom in Smash Bros. so wonderful is the fact that it opens up for new types of gameplay. Camping, defense, offense, etc. It alleviates strict close-quarters combat, allows for more mindgames such as baiting and punishing and necessitates precision. Not being held captive in a small, boxey arena means more room to make a comeback, more strategical implementations and an endless myriad of other things. In general, it is the gateway for several other facets to be mentioned.

Creative Methodologies: Again, hearkening back to the uniqueness of each character's moves, Smash allows for something most games do not: attacking out of context, if you will. What I mean by this is since you are granted such freedom of movement, an attack that would normally not be used in a certain context can be used to catch an opponent off-guard. A good, yet simple example is Ganon's fair. Most good Ganon users won't attack with it as it's "intended", which is when facing the opponent. Instead, they will jump behind them, shattering the opponent's expectations, which means they drop their shield and eat fair from behind. Most other fighters, you don't need to anticipate anything other than a high/low/grab attack, since most combat is about-face and full-frontal.

The reality is that in a lot of fighters, since you are fully-frontal, you can't really catch someone off guard with much but cross-ups. "Attacking out of context" isn't really an option, since you're always facing forward and have no stage exploits at your disposal.

DI: An entirely new idea added to fighting games. DI, or, directional influence. DI, as most of you know, is a method in which you can manipulate where you are sent after an attack by using the control or c-stick. What this offers is more depth to the prediction system, in which you must predict your opponent's DI and react accordingly.

Tier Lists: Ever wondered why tier lists are such a big deal? It's because along with Smash's unique gameplay, a unique imbalance gets mixed in. Sure, other games have tier lists, but Smash's is different I believe. I've never seen an entire community get hyped up and get into 10,000+ reply debates on why a character shouldn't be where he/she is in relation to another character. What makes Smash so incredibly fun is overcoming obstacles. Finding ways to circumvent hindrances and use everything in your ability to emerge the victor despite unfavorable odds.

Simply put, there is an endless network of intra-character relations whose significance in the difference between winning and losing is paramount. Most other fighters do have tier lists and character discrepancies, but they lack the intimate relationship that Smash characters do with the rest of the cast. As stated earlier Smash's quirky gameplay allows for multifaceted combat, which in turn, allows for deeper character analysis.

SMASH IS ****ING LEGIT

Hopefully by now you've gotten the picture that Smash is a little more complex than people like to give credit. Unfortunately, a lot of what has caused the disrespect for the Smash community and game in general is the ill-perceived notion that it's strictly a party game due to its less "abrasive" presentation, and the ostensible simplicity of button pressings. What Smash trades this memory-oriented scheme for is the need for precision and timing. Smash Bros. has always retained the fundaments of every great fighting game, but ousted old archetypes and presented new, improved concepts that dilutes some aspects, but adds plenty more to even the playing field out.

Sure, Smash has its share of shortcomings. Things that would be considered degenerative to competitive play. Brawl for instance has things like planking. But the fact of the matter is that this doesn't subtract from the overall Smash gameplay, both as a fighter and as a competitive game. While it is also true that Smash brings only a few truly new ideas to the mix, those ideas form most of what comprises Smash, mixed with old models given a new twist.

If you ask me, being a fighting game fan since day one, Smash is probably the most complex, multi-faceted and brilliant fighter of all time. If not by gameplay alone, in its analysis, community and staying power. ****, I don't know of any game in ****ing history that lasted 8+ years with a strong competitive scene like Melee. Notice the word "strong". That means that just because a few people still played SFIII for a decade doesn't mean it had a strong competitive scene.

The intricacies and vectors of Smash I do not think were intentional. I do not think Sakurai was sitting with his hug-box thinking of some incomprehensible system on which his new fighter would work. But **** it all, whatever HAL lab and Nintendo collectively thought of conglomerated to make one of the most prolific and unique fighting games to ever hit shelves. It's just a crying shame how many people take Smash at face value, and fail to recognize the potentialities that lie in it through its unique characteristics. Wanna know how other game's match-ups work?

"So, uh, hey, how Cyrax beat a Human Smoke?"

"Just block his teleport punch and punish him. Don't use detonators 'cause he'll t.punch you and be out of range of them."

How Smash match-ups work:

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=118

I see a difference, believe it or not.

So, in closing, I hope I was able to enlighten a few people as to why Smash is the amazing game it is. Why it is no less a veteran to the fighting game world than its archetypal counterparts. Why it has such incredible staying power, and why it is, whether you like to admit it or not, one of the most ****ing legit competitive games ever made.
 

Aznpkilla

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I'm not sure if anybody on smashboards needed convincing that smash is a fighting game...
 

rhan

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Smash is a low tier fighting game. Whether it's Brawl or Melee, it doesn't compare to other games like Tekken, Street Fighter, or even Soul Caliber.

Edit: Another thing that I might add:

Smash's commentary is all just random screaming and outbursts. It's not informative about what's going on or how things are done. It's extreamly bias when it comes to well known players and new players.

Street Fighter commentary at least informs the viewer on what's going on and how it's done.
 

fullynick

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Good Thread

I think you'll find, however, that fighters like Super Turbo and third strike have been around just as long as smash. 8 years is not THAT long in terms of a games lifespan.
 

Vermanubis

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Good Thread

I think you'll find, however, that fighters like Super Turbo and third strike have been around just as long as smash. 8 years is not THAT long in terms of a games lifespan.
Aye, but Third Strike didn't have the following Melee did as long as it did. Ultimate MK 3 still has a following to this day, almost 15 years later. But it's not a very strong one. :p
 

fullynick

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The idea of smash is competitive at the core, however I feel that there are elements of smash brothers which make the game less suited for competition. A game where 2 out of the 3 main elements (Items, Stages) have to be banned or regulated is not generally considered to be at the height of competitive fighters. And That's without mentioning the various infinites and stalling tactics.

That said, the current ruleset gives rise to a highly competitive game.

But i mean, the idea of one game being 'more competitive' than another is ludicrous
 

Vermanubis

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The idea of smash is competitive at the core, however I feel that there are elements of smash brothers which make the game less suited for competition. A game where 2 out of the 3 main elements (Items, Stages) have to be banned or regulated is not generally considered to be at the height of competitive fighters. And That's without mentioning the various infinites and stalling tactics.

That said, the current ruleset gives rise to a highly competitive game.

But i mean, the idea of one game being 'more competitive' than another is ludicrous
Yes, good points. And I agree. I believe the focus should be on how legitimate and challenging the game is to excel at. How competitive the game is is immeasurable. D:
 

rhan

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The idea of smash is competitive at the core, however I feel that there are elements of smash brothers which make the game less suited for competition. A game where 2 out of the 3 main elements (Items, Stages) have to be banned or regulated is not generally considered to be at the height of competitive fighters. And That's without mentioning the various infinites and stalling tactics.

That said, the current ruleset gives rise to a highly competitive game.

But i mean, the idea of one game being 'more competitive' than another is ludicrous
Melee only has about 2 infinites.

If you want infinites......... play Marvel vs Capcom.

Vermanubis: Just because a game may seem challenging, or competitive, doesn't really mean it is (or should be). In my opinion, MvC isn't competitive due to the fact that everyone in the game has an infinite some way or another.
 

fullynick

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Melee only has about 2 infinites.

If you want infinites......... play Marvel vs Capcom.

Vermanubis: Just because a game may seem challenging, or competitive, doesn't really mean it is (or should be). In my opinion, MvC isn't competitive due to the fact that everyone in the game has an infinite some way or another.
I do play MvC <.<

My point was that a lot needs to be banned in smash to make it competition ready.

Items
Stages
Stalling (Rising Pound, etc)
In some tourneys wobbling is banned (which i disagree with)

whereas a street fighter game is competition ready 'out of the box' so to speak. I think this is the problem a lot of fighting game enthusiasts have with smash.

That said, I don't mind, considering that there are options IN THE GAME for item switch and stage switch

Edit: a game being 'challenging' isn't really important, as in the end, a game is just a way for you to express your thoughts against those of your opponent.
 

rhan

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Smash was created as a party game. But in all actuality the people who make a game competitive is the actual players. So technically any game is competitive as long as you can put a prize behind it or some kind of ranking system.
 

JOE!

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I do play MvC <.<

My point was that a lot needs to be banned in smash to make it competition ready.

Items
Stages
Stalling (Rising Pound, etc)
In some tourneys wobbling is banned (which i disagree with)

whereas a street fighter game is competition ready 'out of the box' so to speak. I think this is the problem a lot of fighting game enthusiasts have with smash.

That said, I don't mind, considering that there are options IN THE GAME for item switch and stage switch

Edit: a game being 'challenging' isn't really important, as in the end, a game is just a way for you to express your thoughts against those of your opponent.
while true, is it necesarily better if the end result is the same?

I mean, if Ryu was disccovered to have some broken-***...thingy in SFIV, would the game be worse if that technique were banned?
 

Anther

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The idea of smash is competitive at the core, however I feel that there are elements of smash brothers which make the game less suited for competition. A game where 2 out of the 3 main elements (Items, Stages) have to be banned or regulated is not generally considered to be at the height of competitive fighters. And That's without mentioning the various infinites and stalling tactics.

That said, the current ruleset gives rise to a highly competitive game.

But i mean, the idea of one game being 'more competitive' than another is ludicrous
That's like saying in tennis, since it's feasable for people to throw pillows and for there to be puddles of water or even pools on the courts and not allowing every possible influence possible means it's not competitive.

Just because those games aren't DIVERSE enough to have elements to be taken out for competitive play, and just because of the fact that the default isn't how the game's played competitively... well basically, what you say makes no sense on whether something's more "legit" competitively.

Sports like football have changed their rules overtime and recently, while even Starcraft has banned stages, modified stages, and the gameplay is changed from the speed of Normal to Fastest.

Anyways, what I'm getting at... is that your reasoning is flawed.

Smash is just as thought provoking and just as reward/punishment based as other fighting games, with a greater deal in punishments and opportunities that go outside of the real of infinites and combos. IMO it's more content for less BS in my play experience ;p.

Btw nice beefy post Vermanubis. <3
 

fullynick

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That's like saying in tennis, since it's feasable for people to throw pillows and for there to be puddles of water or even pools on the courts and not allowing every possible influence possible means it's not competitive.

Just because those games aren't DIVERSE enough to have elements to be taken out for competitive play, and just because of the fact that the default isn't how the game's played competitively... well basically, what you say makes no sense on whether something's more "legit" competitively.

Sports like football have changed their rules overtime and recently, while even Starcraft has banned stages, modified stages, and the gameplay is changed from the speed of Normal to Fastest.

Anyways, what I'm getting at... is that your reasoning is flawed.

Smash is just as thought provoking and just as reward/punishment based as other fighting games, with a greater deal in punishments and opportunities that go outside of the real of infinites and combos. IMO it's more content for less BS in my play experience ;p.

Btw nice beefy post Vermanubis. <3
Well, yeah it probably is :chuckle:

I went on to say though, that with the current ruleset smash is a competitive game...

Oh btw your vids helped me get my friend into Brawl!
 

Albert.

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Smash is a low tier fighting game. Whether it's Brawl or Melee, it doesn't compare to other games like Tekken, Street Fighter, or even Soul Caliber.

Edit: Another thing that I might add:

Smash's commentary is all just random screaming and outbursts. It's not informative about what's going on or how things are done. It's extreamly bias when it comes to well known players and new players.

Street Fighter commentary at least informs the viewer on what's going on and how it's done.
LOL at the hypocrisy of a person dissing smash EVEN THOUGH they have 1,800 posts on said Smash forum LOL
 

fullynick

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LOL at the hypocrisy of a person dissing smash EVEN THOUGH they have 1,800 posts on said Smash forum LOL
Just because someone doesn't view smash as one of the BEST competitive fighters doesn't mean they can't enjoy playing it.

People still play Rock paper scissors, even though they know that it is tactically an inferior game than chess.
 

Albert.

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...uh ok LOL you seem to have missed my point.

If he thinks smash is so "low tier" compared to those other games then why has he logged on enough time on smash boards to accumulate so many posts?

those high tier games' boards he better have like 34634532453245 posts to compensate for their obvious superiority

*sarcasm
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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LOL at the hypocrisy of a person dissing smash EVEN THOUGH they have 1,800 posts on said Smash forum LOL
People can admit something is inferior to another thing while liking it.

Some people here do like smash but think it's bad competitively.

I don't really care one way or another, I'm going to play what is fun to me, aka Smash.
 

KuroKitt10

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I agree - I think Smash does offer a lot of things that traditional fighting games do not. I think that with the correct rule sets, it's a very rich competitive experience (and one that would, in all likely hood, be even richer if Meta Knight were given a ban =P). It's not perfect, mind you - the fact that there are stalling tactics is a hindrance, mostly because stalling tactics are usually challenging to ban fairly. It also suffers from a slippery slope in the form of the Damage/Knockback system - though admittedly it's not a big slope; however, perfection isn't necessarily required for a game to be competitively fulfilling.

Meow.
 

ph00tbag

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First of all, I agree with your premise that Smash can be a competitive game.

But you clearly don't know why. And the reason you don't know why is you clearly have not played any other game at a high level, and haven't even played some of the games you mention. Plus, I suspect you don't play Smash at a very high level either, because your reasons for it being "deeper" than other games are either not unique to smash or ultimately not particularly deep, actually.

First of all, your assertion that all other fighters are about putting out more force or having quicker reflexes is outright false. A great deal of thought goes into starting each combo, and there's a great deal of prediction that goes into each one. Afterward, there is always a wake-up prediction element. The point is, prediction and playing as safely as possible while still taking advantage of openings is at the core of competitive fighting games, and in competition in general.

Second of all, although you mention Guilty Gear, it's painfully clear that you've never even seen the game played, let alone picked it up. Guilty Gear has mobility, massively unique characters, and several factors that affect the game outside of just health. In fact, Guilty Gear alone could be used to debunk many of your assertions. Let's go through them, shall we?

Unique stages: Contrary to popular belief, most stages do not add a significant amount of depth. There are maybe three stages in Brawl that could be said to effect significant changes in balance without being totally or even borderline degenerate with certain characters. These stages are Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville. Generally, stages that contribute to depth in one aspect do so by subtracting depth in some other. For instance, ROB should never win against a good player playing a viable character. That's what's called broken, and it's degenerate. This is why your mention of CPs is also bunk. Counterpicks only add depth by significantly altering the balance of the game such that it becomes a less deep game as a result. If those stages were neutral, the game would be a particularly dumb game of Poker.

Essentially, the fact that half the stages in the game are usually banned at a tournament should be telling.

Completely unique characters: Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong... Wrong. Have you never picked up Blazblue? Guilty Gear? Arcana Heart? MvC2? CvS? TvC? All of these games have a plethora of bizarre, unique movesets and qualities that are not found in any other game. This point is so clearly biased, I was embarrassed to read it. Please, do your research before you do something like this.

Range and priority playing a huge role due to unique character traits: Agggggggggggh, why are you doing this to me? Range is in every fighting game. Why else would you spam Hadoukens in SF? Why does Litchi poke with 2b maximum range in BlazBlue, and not when she's right next to you? Priority doesn't exist intrinsically in other games like it does in Smash, but there are equivalents. Anti-airs are unblockable in the air, and often upper body invincible, overheads beat low blocks, and can be invinicible to low attacks, sweeps beat high blocks and can duck under a lot of highs, and even some middles. DPs are invincible for some time, so they outright beat several attacks and pressure strings. Essentially, both of the things you mention are in some way present in every fighting game, and have been for some time.

Survival and recovery: The oft misunderstood element of recoveries. Yes, it adds a really unique element to the game that all other fighters lack, and that element provides more opportunities for unique character movesets and such. Of course, some of the most uncompetitive strategies originate from abuse of the very depth you tout. For instance, MK can abuse his unbelievable offstage game to make it impossible for characters with bad recoveries to win. There were broken stalling strategies in Melee, too.

Free-roam: Guilty Gear. Arcana Heart. Hell, even Street Fighter allows you to camp in order to orchestrate a comeback. Just because you can't turn around doesn't mean you can't run away. Smash has its share of up-close fighting, block pressure strings and claustrophobia. Other fighters have their share of creating space and controlling space. Just because you see people playing up close doesn't mean that's the only way to play a game.

Creativity methodologies: Cross-ups, hi-lo mix-ups, cancel mix-ups, the list goes on. Good players are always creative, and very often will surprise their opponents. That's what makes them good. Incidentally, good players tend not to play games that don't reward creativity.

Tier Lists: Really? Really? I'm having trouble believing that you're saying this. If you don't think there are fighters with tier lists that are as widely varied as Smash's, then go look at MvC2. In fact, generally, games with horribly imbalanced tier lists are looked at sideways, while games with relatively balanced rosters are lauded. A game will definitely have to be ****ed good to overcome an imbalanced roster.

And yet, despite all of this questionable argumentation, you fail to hit on the one aspect that gives smash a truly unique fighting system: DI. The incredible thing about DI is that unlike many other fighters (games with bursting excluded), there is no way to escape a combo once it's begun; one hitconfirm, and muscle memory can take over. In Smash, you have to essentially hitconfirm on each hit to make sure the next one will. This inherently gives the defender branching options, even while their being comboed. Giving a character who's being comboed forces the player who's on the offensive to constantly be thinking about what their opponent is doing and what they can do to reverse the situation.

But even then, there are some questionable things. Games that allow bursting mean that you have to be thinking about when your opponent is going to try to burst out of your combo, predict the burst, then do something about it. This is not unlike Smash's DI system, so in a way, Smash isn't even all that unique here.

Furthermore, DI can allow people to live as high as 200% without much difficulty, making each hit impossible to follow up on. This means you never know how many times your going to have to predict your opponent to win the stock. In other games, this problem is alleviated by a health bar that puts a distinct limit on the amount by which you have to be outthinking your opponent.

Pay attention, also, to what fullynick has to say.
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
Joined
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-Unique stages
Smash does give very good stage diversity. Its a shame that so many of them get banned due to them not being compatible with the fighting mechanics at high level. Other games have stages that definitely will change how you approach the match though and will make you have to be a little creative depending on circumstances. Even tiny changes in stages can make BIG differences in some games.

-Completely unique characters
Absolutely wrong. A lot of games have insane diversity between characters, and there are ones that are much older that do this as well. I actually think the character diversity in smash bros is just so-so.

-Counterpicks
It has existed in competitive fighters before Smash Bros. It usually just affected character choices but it had been used for stages too years before smash bros hit the scene.

-Range and priority playing a huge role due to unique character traits
This is not new to fighters at all. Its interesting in smash while combine with the free-roaming and survival ideas but it isn't unique on its own.

-Survival and recovery
Parts of this have been used in other fighting games besides smash before it was released. Smash series does do it in an interesting way that I really like though.

-Free-roam
Though not completely unique to smash bros, it is an aspect that I greatly enjoy in it. Smash bros, especially the 64 version, does a very good job at this.

-Creativity methodologies
Its called a cross-up, its in the majority of fighting games. Its not something new to smash. A lot of moves in fighting games have weird hitboxes that can be used in ways that shatter expectations.

-Tier Lists
Other games go through this same thing. You do not hang out with other fighting game scenes do you? Maybe you should do a little research before you say something like this.

I am not dissing the smash series to say its not competitive. But its not as unique as you are making it out to be. It has a lot of unique features but it isn't that different from other fighters.
 
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ph00tbag hit most everything I had to say and more.

I'd also like to add that banning a certain tactic is not so different from say, banning items. As long as the rule is clearly defined, the banned tactic is detectable, and the tactic is worthy of being banned, then it is bannable.

For example, ph00t, you mentioned that stalling tactics remove some of depth that comes with the recovery aspect of Smash. This is true and I fully agree. However, in melee, all viable stalling tactics are banned (rising pound, peach bomber, etc.), worthy of being banned, and clearly detectable. So what's difference between banning an item and banning the rising pound? Nothing really. The same can be said ,for the most part, for Brawl.
 

ph00tbag

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ph00tbag hit most everything I had to say and more.

I'd also like to add that banning a certain tactic is not so different from say, banning items. As long as the rule is clearly defined, the banned tactic is detectable, and the tactic is worthy of being banned, then it is bannable.

For example, ph00t, you mentioned that stalling tactics remove some of depth that comes with the recovery aspect of Smash. This is true and I fully agree. However, in melee, all viable stalling tactics are banned (rising pound, peach bomber, etc.), worthy of being banned, and clearly detectable. So what's difference between banning an item and banning the rising pound? Nothing really. The same can be said ,for the most part, for Brawl.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that the depth of recovery games in Smash leads to some degenerate tactics, some of which are broken enough to be bannable.
 

Anther

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Well, yeah it probably is :chuckle:

I went on to say though, that with the current ruleset smash is a competitive game...

Oh btw your vids helped me get my friend into Brawl!
I read that, I just wanted to point out why in my opinion the changing the rules thing was irrelevant =P.

Glad my vids can do that, haha >:D
 

rhan

Smash Hero
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LOL at the hypocrisy of a person dissing smash EVEN THOUGH they have 1,800 posts on said Smash forum LOL
Most of my post come from spam and bashing. =3

...uh ok LOL you seem to have missed my point.

If he thinks smash is so "low tier" compared to those other games then why has he logged on enough time on smash boards to accumulate so many posts?

those high tier games' boards he better have like 34634532453245 posts to compensate for their obvious superiority

*sarcasm
Only reason I play smash is because it's simple to pick up and the money flow is decent.

In all honesty if I was better in Tekken or Street Fighter you wouldn't see me here anymore. I'll be on SRK or Tekkenzaibatsu.
 

Vermanubis

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Uh, okay, I entered a large post, and it's saying it's too short and needs to be 10 characters. <_<
 

Vermanubis

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But you clearly don't know why. And the reason you don't know why is you clearly have not played any other game at a high level, and haven't even played some of the games you mention. Plus, I suspect you don't play Smash at a very high level either, because your reasons for it being "deeper" than other games are either not unique to smash or ultimately not particularly deep, actually.
I demonstrated that I know why. I've played Smash competitively for years now. I don't spend my life traveling cross-country to California for tournaments, but I do play at a high level. Secondly, I never said it was "deeper" than other games, per se, rather, it had more elements and more dimensions which amalgamate. I also never said any particular thing was unique to smash, rather, Smash vivified the concept.


First of all, your assertion that all other fighters are about putting out more force or having quicker reflexes is outright false. A great deal of thought goes into starting each combo, and there's a great deal of prediction that goes into each one. Afterward, there is always a wake-up prediction element. The point is, prediction and playing as safely as possible while still taking advantage of openings is at the core of competitive fighting games, and in competition in general.
Fundamentally, they are. Deplete the health bar equates to force output. If you put out less force than your opponent, you will likely lose. Simple as that.

Second of all, although you mention Guilty Gear, it's painfully clear that you've never even seen the game played, let alone picked it up. Guilty Gear has mobility, massively unique characters, and several factors that affect the game outside of just health. In fact, Guilty Gear alone could be used to debunk many of your assertions. Let's go through them, shall we?
You'll notice I never said anything specific about Guilty Gear because I do not play it at a high level. However, I do play it, and I'm fully aware of its absence from the list of games with a level of freedom equivocal to Smash. Guilty Gear is fast, but you're deluding yourself if you believe it's without confines and has a plane of motion like Smash's. As for its characters, I'm aware they have a distinct uniqueness to them, but they still are primarily separated by special moves. Basic movesets are still present among a myriad of other things.

Unique stages: Contrary to popular belief, most stages do not add a significant amount of depth. There are maybe three stages in Brawl that could be said to effect significant changes in balance without being totally or even borderline degenerate with certain characters. These stages are Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville. Generally, stages that contribute to depth in one aspect do so by subtracting depth in some other. For instance, ROB should never win against a good player playing a viable character. That's what's called broken, and it's degenerate. This is why your mention of CPs is also bunk. Counterpicks only add depth by significantly altering the balance of the game such that it becomes a less deep game as a result. If those stages were neutral, the game would be a particularly dumb game of Poker.
That's the entire point: that the stages are trying, but not impossible to overcome. I main Ganondorf, and I've beaten R.O.B.s on FO before, and Warios on Brinstar. Good ones. I had an extremely rough time, but the beauty of it is that I was able to think differently and play differently to utilize the facets of the stage to my advantage. That, my friend, is what adds depth. Your line of reasoning that it being degenerate to one character subtracting depth doesn't quite follow.

Essentially, the fact that half the stages in the game are usually banned at a tournament should be telling.
19 are left. That's plenty, methinks.

Completely unique characters: Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong... Wrong. Have you never picked up Blazblue? Guilty Gear? Arcana Heart? MvC2? CvS? TvC? All of these games have a plethora of bizarre, unique movesets and qualities that are not found in any other game. This point is so clearly biased, I was embarrassed to read it. Please, do your research before you do something like this.
I've played them all save for BlazBlue. And you'd be less embarrassed if you actually read into why the characters were unique. The point I covered several times was that fighting games can have unique characters, but Smash supersedes them by a mile. Why? Speed difference, attack speed, range, personalized movesets, different physics, weights, KO options, etc. Shall I go on? It's nice that MvC2 has everybody and their mother's in it, but that doesn't change the fact that each character follows a basic model.

Range and priority playing a huge role due to unique character traits: Agggggggggggh, why are you doing this to me? Range is in every fighting game. Why else would you spam Hadoukens in SF? Why does Litchi poke with 2b maximum range in BlazBlue, and not when she's right next to you? Priority doesn't exist intrinsically in other games like it does in Smash, but there are equivalents. Anti-airs are unblockable in the air, and often upper body invincible, overheads beat low blocks, and can be invinicible to low attacks, sweeps beat high blocks and can duck under a lot of highs, and even some middles. DPs are invincible for some time, so they outright beat several attacks and pressure strings. Essentially, both of the things you mention are in some way present in every fighting game, and have been for some time.
There's a difference between projectile range and actual move range, especially in a rock-paper-scissors sense. In MK Shang Tsung's jumpkick has an annoyingly long hitbox that's impossible to punish, but if you're Nightwolf, your high kick extends beyond it a tiny bit, and can knock him down. Each move has its own range and priority, and is not limited to projectiles or special moves.

Survival and recovery: The oft misunderstood element of recoveries. Yes, it adds a really unique element to the game that all other fighters lack, and that element provides more opportunities for unique character movesets and such. Of course, some of the most uncompetitive strategies originate from abuse of the very depth you tout. For instance, MK can abuse his unbelievable offstage game to make it impossible for characters with bad recoveries to win. There were broken stalling strategies in Melee, too.
Does this subtract from the inherent uniqueness of the concept? No. That, and planking rules have been instated, drastically mitigating the amount of plankers. Over the past several months, I haven't fought one MK, G&W or anyone who planked. Even if they did, again, this doesn't demerit the dimension of play it offers.

Free-roam: Guilty Gear. Arcana Heart. Hell, even Street Fighter allows you to camp in order to orchestrate a comeback. Just because you can't turn around doesn't mean you can't run away. Smash has its share of up-close fighting, block pressure strings and claustrophobia. Other fighters have their share of creating space and controlling space. Just because you see people playing up close doesn't mean that's the only way to play a game.
You're sorely undermining the profundity of Smash's fluidity. I didn't state camping can't be done in other fighters, nor did I say you can't run. Sure, Smash has its share of just about everything; but that's the great thing: it accommodates everything. The fluidity of the game alone should be indicative of how much it can affect the need for precision, timing and punishing. Those games give you limited options, again, hearkening to rock-paper-scissors. Not to say this is intrinsically bad, but my point is that Smash's nature breeds technical ability, precision and an analysis of more variable outcomes.

Creativity methodologies: Cross-ups, hi-lo mix-ups, cancel mix-ups, the list goes on. Good players are always creative, and very often will surprise their opponents. That's what makes them good. Incidentally, good players tend not to play games that don't reward creativity.
It seems like you're purposely ignoring the focal point of each listing. Cross-ups and mix-ups do not equate to creativity. Again, rock-paper-scissors. You have to anticipate simply that: high or low. Pay close attention to the phrase "attacking out of context". Most fighters simply do not allow for it, as each move is too restricted to be implemented in creative ways.

Tier Lists: Really? Really? I'm having trouble believing that you're saying this. If you don't think there are fighters with tier lists that are as widely varied as Smash's, then go look at MvC2. In fact, generally, games with horribly imbalanced tier lists are looked at sideways, while games with relatively balanced rosters are lauded. A game will definitely have to be ****ed good to overcome an imbalanced roster.
Did I say Smash was the only game with tier lists? You're repeatedly proving to me that you just skimmed my post and decided to be contentious. >_>

And no, I've never, in all my years, seen as much thought and consideration going into constructing a solid tier list as Smash. The uniqueness catalyzes imbalance, and that imbalance is carefully dissected and formulated into a list. There are many more factors into considering a Smash character's tier placement thanks to the vast ocean of differences and remarkable attributes.

And yet, despite all of this questionable argumentation, you fail to hit on the one aspect that gives smash a truly unique fighting system: DI. The incredible thing about DI is that unlike many other fighters (games with bursting excluded), there is no way to escape a combo once it's begun; one hitconfirm, and muscle memory can take over. In Smash, you have to essentially hitconfirm on each hit to make sure the next one will. This inherently gives the defender branching options, even while their being comboed. Giving a character who's being comboed forces the player who's on the offensive to constantly be thinking about what their opponent is doing and what they can do to reverse the situation.
I didn't forget it, but I didn't expound upon it. But you're right, it is an important facet. But if you're fooling yourself into thinking DI is the one unique trait of Smash, then you're sadly mistaken, I'm afraid.

But even then, there are some questionable things. Games that allow bursting mean that you have to be thinking about when your opponent is going to try to burst out of your combo, predict the burst, then do something about it. This is not unlike Smash's DI system, so in a way, Smash isn't even all that unique here.
Combo Breakers could be compared as well.

Furthermore, DI can allow people to live as high as 200% without much difficulty, making each hit impossible to follow up on. This means you never know how many times your going to have to predict your opponent to win the stock. In other games, this problem is alleviated by a health bar that puts a distinct limit on the amount by which you have to be outthinking your opponent.
Half the fun of Smash is consistently outthinking and outplaying your opponent. The healthbar sidelines a lot of potential creativity and gameplay.

Overall, I can see where you're coming from, but in your own presentation of points, you failed to fully acknowledge the bulk of mine. Instead of focusing on the inherent dimensions of gameplay, you picked at scabs and negative possibilities. If you reply to this, I'd appreciate some examples of how any other game stacks up to Smash as far as characters and stages go.
 

fullynick

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
135
Location
adelaide
ugh........

about 'unique characters'

characters in other games can have different physics, attack speed, multiple jumps, teleports, you name it.

For just about every smash character there is an equivalent character from another fighter.

Samus is based on Dhalsim
Mario is obviously Ryu
Bowser is based on the typical 'grappler' character seen in almost every fighting game
Fox is the typical 'pixie' character
Most other characters are merely variations of these elementary 'types'

and so on

and don't tell me that games like Guilty Gear don't have characters which are just as unique as those in smash brothers.

Like Ph00tbag said.. there are a lot of things that can only be understood when you play a fighter at a reasonably high level.

If you'd ever tried playing street fighter at a decent level, or even Marvel, you'd know that neither of these games are solely about having 'quick reflexes'.
 

JOE!

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Melee is...

anywho, @fullynick:

are they straight-up clones almost, or just similarly designed?

I can see Mario seeing as hes the "average" guy, but bowser isnt much of a grappler aside from his grab release and Side B...
 

Vermanubis

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*sigh*

What do people not understand is that what robs most fighters of uniqueness is the basic model of kick and punch variations? It's not a difficult concept. Really. I promise. You don't have to play fighters at a Justin Wong level to know that the game follows an archetype and that the characters are not wholly unique. In fact, I can guarantee very few people actually read the entire post, judging by how they're stating things covered and explained in the OP. >_>;

Secondly, if anything, I'm an MK fanboy. I just know people give Smash a lot of hell it doesn't deserve.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
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Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
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North Carolina
Well Verm, I did read the entire post. I just didn't call you out on several parts which were incredible and utterly ******** to the point of ***********. You've never been part of a competitive fighting game community outside of Smash, have you?

Let me just reply, then.

Now, I'm only going to be covering the "WHAT MAKES SMASH UNIQUE" section, because honestly if I took the time to point out every error you stated in the others, I'd probably be here till kingdom come. So let's get started, shall we?

>Unique stages

Yes, Smash has unique stages. Different layouts. Different hazards. Different setups, gimmicks, and other various assorted interesting applications/effects of unique stages, all which change. And yes, this is unique to Smash. You get a point. This is true. I cannot refute it. It is correct.
And yet, you, proclaiming that smash is a COMPETITIVE game, playing COMPETITIVE smash, COMPETITIVELY, while COMPETING with other people...have you ever realized that these unique stages are NOT COMPETITIVE?

Mindblowing, huh?

Perhaps you don't realize that what these stages do is that they provide an intrinsic UNBALANCE in the game? What a unique stage does is it sets up for a certain character, with certain traits, who can use them for an instant and unfair advantage over what otherwise would be a fair fight. In an even 50/50 matchup, if you choose a stage advantageous for you, it's suddenly skewed. You are given an unfair and instant advantage, with no skill or other outside factor involved, aside from knowing what stage to choose. And oh, it's not all happy-go-lucky utopia-like in that one character has one good stage, and you can simply just ban it. No, because simply put, several characters have several incredibly good stages, while some characters have none. What are you going to do if my otherwise-decent character has all of one advantageous CP stage, which you cross off, and your pretty-good character has seven, and I can only ban one? Competitive, no? Frankly put, anything which introduces an intrinsically unbalancing aspect into the game cannot be considered competitive, simply because there is no standard unbiased basis by which you can judge skill.

But of course, let me also point out another thing you might not have noticed in this system of "unique stages". I'm not even going to point out how over half the roster is flat-out banned and unplayable at competitive tournaments. I'm just going to point out that outside of the neutral stages, which, I might point out, makes smash little different than a traditional 2D fighter, since these are just flat low-interference stages with pretty colors, cps are less about fighting the opponent, and more about fighting the STAGE. Yes, you're fighting the stage, simply because you have to keep a large amount of factors in mind. Namely, stage hazards. Yes, perhaps, Norfair gives ganon an edge by boosting his otherwise terrible recovery, but it also provides extra factors that the opponent (and you) have to worry about. Yes, you can use them to your advantage, such as using the lava to help recover at low percents, but honestly, it's a terrible nuisance to have to worry about that lava EVERY SINGLE TIME you recover, especially since the MAJORITY of situations means that that lava is not advantageous to you, but rather a danger. But Norfair isn't the best example, let me point out a far more infamous one...Rainbow Cruise. Rainbow Cruise is hands down the perfect example of "fighting the stage". But Ark, I hear you say, Rainbow Cruise isn't that bad if you learn it! You can set up traps! Situate the opponent! Use it to your advantage!. Bur Verm, I reply, do you realize that you need to be in a situation where you have the advantage, you have the setup, you have the location, and you have the knowledge in order to pull these off? Do you realize that in the vast majority of fights, you are missing one or more, and thus can't use the "uniqueness" of the stage to your advantage?

Do you realize that all these stages do, in the long run, is merely provide irritating and annoying hazards which YOU have to take effort to work around, while rarely, if ever, providing you with an actual advantage? Simply put, these stages give the promise and glittery appearance of uniqueness, and nothing more.

Oh, and might I point out something else: if these stages are so good, what happened to them at high-level competitive smash? Why don't I see M2K using cps to effectively beat his opponent? Why don't I see Ally using stage-specific strategies and resources to win?

Honestly, if you have to study and memorize a stage specifically in order to be on equal grounds with your opponent, I think that says plenty about unique stages.

----------------------------------

Onwards to the second point!

>Unique Characters

Now honestly, I don't think you were even thinking on this one. Have you like, ever even TOUCHED another fighting game? El Fuerte and Ryu are OBVIOUSLY the same person (with some minor aesthetics changes), who have the same moves and differ in specials some. Let's not point out that El Fuerte has an incredible which way wakeup game, while lacks in other departments, while Ryu is a solid zoning character with fireballs. Let's not point out that Rachel works mostly through setting up projectiles, pressure, and traps in order to beat the opponent, whereas Tager works off using holes in the opponent's gameplay to punish, along with a large grapple-based game and a unique trait like magnetism. Let's not point out that most characters in most 2D fighters have completely different playstyles, with completely different approaches to zoning, pressure, punishment, and options.

Though to be fair, it'd be pretty hilarious to see you play Sol in the same way you'd play Bridget. Because you see, "spacing, timing and prediction" are in every single 2D fighter. Do you truly think that Smash is unique simply because you can attack from different directions? Have you ever heard of, perhaps, ground-to-air, or anti-air moves, such as a shoryuken? That's what we call "attacking from below". Or perhaps, air-to-ground. Or long-range fireballs, like hadouken. Might I mention fast, close-range moves such as jabs? Or maybe longer-ranged zoning moves such as dhalsim's hp?

But enough of that, this is simply an absurd point. You think Smash has unique characters? Yeah, it does. Most fighting games do. All fighting games do. Please, if you think this is even somewhat of a defining point, go out and play a fighting game. ANY fighting game.

"Smash is Smash primarily due to the vast uniqueness of each and every character. This makes it so a player has to adapt to not only a playstyle, but the character accompanied by it as well." - And by the way, it's pretty easy to adapt to Rachel pressure compared to Noel pressure, huh? Not totally the same thing, nope, definitely not, not at all.

Nope.

------------------------------------

And here's the third!

>Counterpicks

I'm starting to get tired of replying to these silly points. Counterpicks? "Smash is probably the only fighter in the world that has such a vivid counterpick system."? Please. Whatever it is that you're taking, please stop, because I highly doubt it's legal.

Have you ever heard of "matchups"? THIS is the basis of your "vivid counterpick system". Simply put, a counterpick is using a character with a better matchup against another character. And no, contrary to your ******** claim, Smash does NOT have one of the most "vivid counterpick systems". Have you never seen a matchup chart for another game? Have you never played a game, even something relatively new and well-known, like BlazBlue, where there are big matchup differences? Do you not understand the difference between playing a Tager versus a Carl and playing a Rachel versus a Carl? Do you not understand SIMPLE FIGHTING GAME IDEAS?

Please, just...please.

God.

--------------------------------------

Time for the fourth, oh boy.

>Range and Priority

Wat.

Man, seriously, what ARE you smoking, because I swear to god it's not good for your health. Are you telling me that Dhalsim HP has no range compared to Ryu LP? Are you telling me that my shoryuken won't beat your HP?

Like seriously. Range and priority are some of the biggest factors in EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME. You know disjointed moves? Yeah, the thing that you think is "priority"? They're in EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME. (Oh, and just for your information, "priority" does not actually exist in fighting games.) DPs? They're invincible. Sweeps? They hit low. Overheads? They hit high. Fireballs? They have range. Your point is that this..."range and priority" gives a unique rock-paper-scissors system for every move. Hey, man, newsflash: IT DOES THAT FOR EVERY FIGHTING GAME. They've ALWAYS been in every single fighting game.

...like jesus, why do I even bother if you're using ****** points like this. Can't you please god come up with ONE legit reason?

-------------------------------------

Fifth.

>Survival and Recovery

And here we FINALLY start getting into something somewhat unique to Smash. (It only took you 4 stupid reasons before you came to this). Smash is an arena game, a "versus platformer", if you will. Smash's offstage game is what makes it so unique, so different, so SMASH. But, you know, like, why didn't you point this out earlier. Why is one of the MAJOR SELLING POINTS, one of the FEW EXTREMELY UNIQUE PROPERTIES of smash, not something you point out before something like "hurr durr durrrrrr smash has a vivid counterpick system hurr durr yup". Legit point. Moving on.

--------------------------------------

Free-roam is legit, lol creative methodologies, DI is legit, etc. Moving on because I honestly do not care anymore. I will address the last point.

>Tier Lists.

Lol. Loooooooooooool. "Negligible as hell". MvC2 would like to have a word with you, drag you out back, beat the living **** out of you, and then dump you in the trash can. You've never seen an entire community get hyped up and get into 10000+ debates? You've obviously never played Blazblue. Unique imbalance? Yeah, I'd say metaknight's a pretty "uniquely imbalanced" character. I'd also say that he serves all of no purpose in furthering your claim that smash is "competitive".

GGs. Just, ggs. Intimate relationship? Smash tier lists? It's almost like the difference between Sagat and Claw is nil. It's almost like I can beat Nu-13 with Tager without much effort. It's almost like TIER LISTS DON'T MATTER IN MVC2.

Lol.

(You'll notice as the further I got, the less I wrote. This isn't because your points got better or more legit. It's because they got so idiotic I simply stopped caring.)

-------------------------------------

But nobody reads all that. Tl;dr, am I right?

Don't worry, there's a condensed version:

Tl;dr

You are generic smash player who has never touched a competitive fighter outside of smash but thinks he knows something about it #950185091250812501925.
You are also dead wrong.
 
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