Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[matt4300]

My bad (._.);

As for the F-throw, I suppose tweaking the BKB a bit wouldn't be terrible, see how some heavies and fastfallers get chained 3-4 times. I'm just iffy on it because if it goes up too much---- Fthrow -> Fair -> Fthrow -> Aerial Hammer on midweights might not work anymore...and that's one of my favorite combos

Sounds like anything I suggest will take away something you like about kirby... but these things like that gay *** combo are ****ing crazy... and are why kirby needs nerfs in the first place.
Its hard to find someone who actually wants to code nerfs for a char... but this stuff needs to be tested thoroughly to see if they hit to hard... not hard enough ... or just right... Kinda like the snake range nerfs.
No one likes to see there chars nerfed but it has to be done for the sake of the game...

 

[Mattnumbers]

When does kirby even land during his bair? I fail to see how giving him 10% less landing lag on a move he never lands with will sufficiently nerf the move.

Although I see your point, and I agree that size/angle changes would probably be better so that the move retains it's WoP.

 

[Doval]

@Leafgreen: Double checked just now to make sure my memory wasn't failing me. All numbers were obtained using the Debug Pause code in VS Mode.

vBrawl:
Samus's Charge Shot (full charge, 26% damage): 9 frames of stun powershielded, 9 frames normal shielded
Samus's D-Smash: 5 frames powershielded, 5 frames normal shielded
Brawl+ 5.0:
Samus's Charge Shot (full charge, 25% damage): 8 frames of stun powershielded, 21 frames normal shielded
Samus's D-Dmash: 5 frames powershielded, 15 frames normal shielded

Those numbers are pure stun, hit lag excluded. The 26% on the Charge Shot in vBrawl is due to the Stale Moves system - doing it in Training Mode yielded 25% damage and 8 frames of stun. As you can see, the numbers for powershielding in Brawl+ are the same as vBrawl's, and that's resulting in a huge frame advantage on top of being able to choose any attack out of shield.

I had brought up this issue a few weeks back, although I think it might've been in the Competitive Code Agenda thread.

 

[kupo15]

Just so everybody knows, in Melee, the effortless Fortress Hog can only be done on ledges where the ground slopes downwards at the ledge (e.g. Yoshi's Story, Corneria [not the fin]). If the ground is flat (or sloping upwards) at the ledge, it'll take some skill to Fortress Hog it.

It is still more grab location than mobility but thanks for the clarification.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

why does metaknight have alr?
tehres a nerf...lol...not like it would make a difference cuz he doesnt need it anyway

 

[jalued]

why does metaknight have alr?
tehres a nerf...lol...not like it would make a difference cuz he doesnt need it anyway

but tbh thats not his problem at all. its his priority, and stupidly low learning curve and spammy playstyle

 

[IC3R]

Sounds like anything I suggest will take away something you like about kirby... but these things like that gay *** combo are ****ing crazy... and are why kirby needs nerfs in the first place.
Its hard to find someone who actually wants to code nerfs for a char... but this stuff needs to be tested thoroughly to see if they hit too hard... not hard enough ... or just right... Kinda like the snake range nerfs.
No one likes to see there chars nerfed but it has to be done for the sake of the game...

I understand. I don't like seeing Kirby receive nerfs (even though the tone-down on the F-Smash didn't really bother me), but I know he needs them. I know the main reason to increase the BKB on the Fthrow is to stop long chains of Fthrow -> Fair.
I said it would be fine if it was tweaked just enough so it doesn't chain the hell out of Link, Bowser, Fox, etc., but certain combos on midweights still work.

If I had the ability to, I would test a bunch of different values myself to see what is "just right", but I unfortunately do not.

Yeah, I won't be happy if I can't do my favorite combo--which has been around for at least six or seven months now--but if it must be destroyed for the sake of balance, then so be it.

When does kirby even land during his bair? I fail to see how giving him 10% less landing lag on a move he never lands with will sufficiently nerf the move.

Although I see your point, and I agree that size/angle changes would probably be better so that the move retains it's WoP.

IDK, my suggestion of 60% ALR is just a guess on what could be done. In all honesty, the angle change (and maaaybe the hitbox size reduction) would be perfectly fine.


Like I said, I'm no expert; and I just theorycraft when I don't have access to a Wii. Forgive me.

 

[GHNeko]

I just realized. Why dont we up the shield damage on Bowser's attacks? We can control how much damage a move does to a shield (ie Marth Shield Breaker)

So why not give added shield damage to more of bowser's common moves to make it so that constant shielding is not a good idea, so that with shield pressure, Bowser can slowly remove options. :V

Couple that in with good spacing and it might even help bowser out in more ways than once.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I would like it if Bowser's ftilt (s) had more shield damage. Mostly cuz people always shield it when I do it @_@

 

[matt4300]

I just realized. Why dont we up the shield damage on Bowser's attacks? We can control how much damage a move does to a shield (ie Marth Shield Breaker)

So why not give added shield damage to more of bowser's common moves to make it so that constant shielding is not a good idea, so that with shield pressure, Bowser can slowly remove options. :V

Couple that in with good spacing and it might even help bowser out in more ways than once.

Dude, that would actually be extremely cool... this should have been done right when we found out it could be... Fair/ bair/ ftlit/ jab/ nair/ **** it just make um all **** shields... He should do more shield damage and stun than anyother char lol. I'm not even jokeing

 

[IC3R]

Bowser can now ****. Hard. Especially with his Dair!
Bowser Dair + high Shieldstun + opponent's shield = Dazed opponent = Gimpysmash

 

[MK26]

let him have it ... super floatys are all really good anyway... no one is complaining about kirbys ****ED UP bull**** 0-40 chains on just about everyone.

I lol'd...thunderstomping, anyone? A guaranteed 2-hitter that does 44% vs 6 hits or more, mostly DIable and weight-dependent, that may or may not break 40%.

Either way, Kirby probably does deserve some nerfs, but I'd like to say that fthrow fair is completely SDIable and wont work on a competent opponent...his grab game as a whole is greatly overrated, as he cant touch most floaties (****in peach and luigi D:<) and on everybody outside super heavies and ffers, you really wont get more than 30% if they have a brain in their heads.

If anything should be done to his bair, it would be slightly lengthening the endlag while in air. Utilt has already been nerfed, but lowering the growth a bit and raising the base could still be a possibility. Maybe increasing the alr on fair only to prevent the weak hits from comboing into ground stuff. As for uair...learn to sdi. Theres nothing more to say.

Of course, if there are tradeoffs to be had, you could have his usmash/dsmash have lowered startup/endlag, respectively (thats the top of a list of like 10 possible buffs i can think of for kirby, he's far from an optimal character)

 

[GHNeko]

I'm so creative gaiz. :V

 

[MK26]

i was gonna have an edit @neko, but his post coincidentally allowed me to +1 post count

@neko: yehs!

 

[IC3R]

I was wondering when Maestro was going to arrive...

Either way, Kirby probably does deserve some nerfs, but I'd like to say that fthrow fair is completely SDIable and wont work on a competent opponent...his grab game as a whole is greatly overrated, as he cant touch most floaties (****in peach and luigi D:<) and on everybody outside super heavies and ffers, you really wont get more than 30% if they have a brain in their heads.

If anything should be done to his bair, it would be slightly lengthening the endlag while in air. Utilt has already been nerfed, but lowering the growth a bit and raising the base could still be a possibility. Maybe increasing the alr on fair only to prevent the weak hits from comboing into ground stuff. As for uair...learn to di. Theres nothing more to say.

Strangely, all the stuff I underlined is what I was thinking about while doing yard work a little while ago.

In any case, it looks like tacking on a little more aerial endlag on the Bair won't be as detrimental as I thought.

 

[matt4300]

I was wondering when another Kirby was going to arrive. At least he knows the math behind Kirby >_>

Yeh I have to admit I dont know much about kirbys fthow chains other than how to do them... I wasnt aware you could DI them.

but my Bair and utilts still stand!

 

[Alphatron]

Wait, you can SDI throws at all?

And Neko, your idea...FUND IT!

 

[IC3R]

Alphatron, I'm pretty sure Maestro meant you can SDI out of the weak Fair hits.

Also, slight edit on my above post.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If anything to bair, make it so the hitbox actually matches the animation >.>

And more shield damage on bowser's ftilt. RAAAAAAAAAA@PE.

 

[matt4300]

Wait, you can SDI throws at all?

And Neko, your idea...FUND IT!

By DI I hope he doesnt mean once you have already taken 30% >_>'

and Neko bair> 1/2 shield... make it happen.

 

[Doval]

I just realized. Why dont we up the shield damage on Bowser's attacks? We can control how much damage a move does to a shield (ie Marth Shield Breaker)

I'm not a Bowser user but that's not a bad idea. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. People say that you beat a big and powerful character with speed, yet in practice you can stand and shield Bowser's hits just as easily as the next guy's just because they do the same % even though Bowser's moves generally pack a much bigger punch when they do hit.

Wait, you can SDI throws at all?

In general, no, but "fancier" throws may have elements that are Smash DI'able. For instance, you could SDI each of Falco's laser shots in his throws in Melee, if my memory serves. Whether this is true of Kirby's f-throw, I don't know.

 

[IC3R]

If anything to bair, make it so the hitbox actually matches the animation >.>

A little more endlag would be fine, as Maestro said.
Aside from that, what are all the moves that the Bair can outprioritize atm?

And more shield damage on bowser's ftilt. RAAAAAAAAAA@PE.

YESZ!


EDIT: Whoa, double-ninja'd >_>;

 

[Doval]

EDIT: Disregard this post. I was trying to edit the previous one. I don't know how this double post happened.

 

[Alphatron]

Reading it again, I see you're right. With the hitlag increase next set, kirby should be getting less complaints about his awesomeness.


Now about Marth/Ike DownB...the next set should hopefully make these moves remotely useful again.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Once again, moar shield damage on bowser's ftilt.

and maybe more hitlag on forward smash for the lulz?


and is there some way we can make bowser's down smash a little more useful? It actually is decent against rollers. I would just speed up the animation a little bit. Like 1.2 or 1.3 times?

EDIT: OH Bowser's down smash would be like perfect for a shield r@p3r. just don't make it as quick as rob down smash @_@

 

[GHNeko]

Giving his ground attacks and aerials extra shield damage would probably be perfect for bowser as we've crafted him into this tank that brings a **** load of pain. Common sense that would carry over into shields as well.

Aerials would get less shield damage than grounds simply for lag + spacing + speed reasons, while ground moves would get more, and special moves such as Up B and Down B could get a nice shield damage chunk. Add in IASA for firebreath and you're done.

After that, we leave bowser alone and set how competent plays could be with him. :V

Now about Marth/Ike DownB...the next set should hopefully make these moves remotely useful again.

I obviously cant read. Did you say Marth counter isnt useful? LOL.

 

[IC3R]

is there some way we can make bowser's down smash a little more useful? It actually is decent against rollers. I would just speed up the animation a little bit. Like 1.2 or 1.3 times?

If that happened, then the smash wouldn't outlast the invincibilty of most dodges and ledge invincibility...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Maybe make it shield r@p3r, like my other idea?

 

[Alphatron]

Marth's counter isn't useful when the person who is supposed to be getting countered has frame advantage...and therefore doesn't get hit by the counterattack at all.

 

[zxeon]

I'm so creative gaiz. :V

Don't fish for compliments :V

 

[SymphonicSage12]

:V​

This thread is getting more and more the active the closer it is to releasing the next set. :D

 

[GHNeko]

Marth's counter isn't useful when the person who is supposed to be getting countered has frame advantage...and therefore doesn't get hit by the counterattack at all.

You also forget that there is going to be an roster-wise hitlag increase in the next build.

The failure of Marth's counter is based upon hitlag. :V

 

[Alphatron]

Which is why the next set gives me faith.

 

[matt4300]

Neko alert some other WBRers to get that bowser **** done pronto... before the next set is finished! "DO IeT KNOAWWWW"

 

[JCaesar]

Giving his ground attacks and aerials extra shield damage would probably be perfect for bowser as we've crafted him into this tank that brings a **** load of pain. Common sense that would carry over into shields as well.

Aerials would get less shield damage than grounds simply for lag + spacing + speed reasons, while ground moves would get more, and special moves such as Up B and Down B could get a nice shield damage chunk. Add in IASA for firebreath and you're done.

After that, we leave bowser alone and set how competent plays could be with him. :V

I really like this idea. Neko you should bring it up in the backroom.


There was a little Squirtle discussion earlier and I just wanna say something about that. In the new set his uair is getting a nerf (because uthrow->uair kills stupidly low on some chars). I think that is enough for him. Yeah he's very good and easy to play, but honestly I think he's overrated because he's so overplayed. His range is crap and his recovery is very gimpable by anyone with a decent spike, he has trouble killing if he can't land a grab because his smashes are garbage, and he's also extremely light. I think characters like Wario and Olimar and Diddy have the potential to all be better than Squirtle if they had better representation.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

hey I just remembered not sure if this is new but mario has some weird cape glitch thing when used on a character @ the ledge.. im really not sure how 2 explain this or if its new or not but its just glitchy not even sure how 2 explain the situation its like I used the cape correctly but the person asl or something

 

[GHNeko]

It was in Brawl. :V

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

(Squirtle) his smashes are garbage

hyrdoplane. use it.

 

[Dai Tian]

hyrdoplane. use it.

Ehhhhh, even then the move is still hard to land. I fight a **** good Squirtle fairly often these days, he hasn't hit me with the move in a long time. His kills have always been through uair, fair and water gimps or the eventual down throw.

Then again, it could just be he's not very good at aiming the hydroplaned usmash so...

 

[GHNeko]

You're friend cant be good if he cant space hydroplaned usmashes since hydroplane grab is a common tactic among squirtles. <_<

But idk, maybe I'm just dumb.