Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[matt4300]

It wouldn't even work that well on a cpu, because they know how to tech >.>


EDIT: I tried spamming this "broken upsmash" on a cpu. The bowser managed to koopa klaw me out of it.

Random falco is broken post!

Its hilarious how we got 2 falco is broken posts out of the blue... Do you guys know eachother?

Yeah, I find it funny how those most hurt by his original CG/infinite (Bowser, DK, DDD and etc.) are now fine, and those immune to his original (super floaties) can be CG'd.

Even though it is avoidable depending on DI, it is something to look into fixing. I'll see what I can do next time I'm at my Wii, or maybe the WBR already changed it for all I know (it was brought up a while ago that he can still CG certain characters). Right now it sends you up so high, and the floaties take their **** time when making their way to the ground like every other character; it allows you to go for the regrab on them. Basically what the throw needs to have basically all gayness removed is to send at a much lower angle, more like the original Dthrow, but actually tumble every character at any percent.

As long as its tech chasing options aren't hurt, I could truthfully care less about what happens to it as somebody who plays more DDD than any other character (sorry G&W and Wario ._.). As long as I can chase you, I'm going to pseudo CG you across the stage regardless.

Spoiler

Unless of course you are one of those characters who's forward tech roll is too long to get a regrab off of T_T

let him have it ... super floatys are all really good anyway... no one is complaining about kirbys ****ED UP bull**** 0-40 chains on just about everyone.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Um....I was saying that falco wasn't broken....wtf?


I was debunking the whole "broken" up smash deal.

This one random guy said that you can rack up like 50% with falco's up smash. I went and tried on a cpu bowser. The bowser managed to flying slam koopa klaw thingy (side b) after the first up smash.

 

[matt4300]

um....i Was Saying That Falco Wasn't Broken....wtf?


I Was Debunking The Whole "broken" Up Smash Deal.

This One Random Guy Said That You Can Rack Up Like 50% With Falco's Up Smash. I Went And Tried On A Cpu Bowser. The Bowser Managed To Flying Slam Koopa Klaw Thingy (side B) After The First Up Smash.

1.

falco Is Toooo Goood.

Shine Shouldn't Pull You In D:

2

i Dont Know If Its Been Mentioned Before But Falcos Upsmash Is Broken, Its Too Weak So You Can Hit With It Like 5 Or 6 Times, Racking Up An Impressive 50% Or Even 70% On Some Characters

 

[Mattnumbers]

He was agreeing with you sage.

Also, I wish you guys would at least give some kind of nerf to kirby, I really think he's too good right now.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

and, I just managed to do the true infinite dedede down throw chaingrab on donkey kong.

Like, I was just standing and down throw infinitely without moving. >.>


and I don't think it's avoidable with DI.

 

[Marth175]

It wouldn't even work that well on a cpu, because they know how to tech >.>


EDIT: I tried spamming this "broken upsmash" on a cpu. The bowser managed to koopa klaw me out of it.

on both a human and a cpu, and my friends are very skilled so i dont think they were stupid enough to fall over and over, and they also managed to do it to me

try this combo out shine>upsmash>upsmash>upsmash> side smash, one more thing wait till the frame where falcos feet are fixed on the ground before doing upsmash again and you can spam it incredibly fast

 

[SymphonicSage12]

um...yeah...the bowser attacked out of it before I can up smash again. You just fail at getting out of combos.

 

[timothyung]

and, I just managed to do the true infinite dedede down throw chaingrab on donkey kong.

Like, I was just standing and down throw infinitely without moving. >.>


and I don't think it's avoidable with DI.

lol CPU.
10CPUsucks

 

[Mattnumbers]

Guys, don't insult him, we should have more than just a single person try it before dismissing it.

 

[Marth175]

um...yeah...the bowser attacked out of it before I can up smash again. You just fail at getting out of combos.

how can i fail getting out of combos when i'm the one doing them, am i comboing my self? o.O

 

[matt4300]

um...yeah...the bowser attacked out of it before I can up smash again. You just fail at getting out of combos.

bowser gets out of hitstun pretty fast man... try on DK or D3 or something. Or no wait I will.

And yeh matt... Kirby, Luigi, squirtle, and MK all need more nerfs... Luigi just needs hitstun... Squirtle IMO should have his Dthow nerfed its an insanley good kill move for a combo damage rack char. Kirbys throws need tweaking to stop wtf gay combos on just about everyone... and a bair tweak... and MK 19% uber safe killing NAIR!!!!! DX;

but this is all just me thinking aloud...



falcos usmash- I can get off 4 on mario and wolf cpus.... probley only 2 or 3 on human DI...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I can see how the up smash can link together sometimes...

but seriously, DI, son. DI.


Ok, I tried on D3...it's a lot better...close to being too good..


but still, it's not broken. I mean, Falco is a fricking combo character. Just stop whining and get over it.

 

[Plum]

and, I just managed to do the true infinite dedede down throw chaingrab on donkey kong.

Like, I was just standing and down throw infinitely without moving. >.>


and I don't think it's avoidable with DI.

He can infinite Bowser, DK, and Snake if you fail at DI.
But they all have enough fatty to get themselves down to the ground and tech before DDD can do anything.

Spoiler

Then it just becomes a tech chasing CG

 

[shanus]

Oh, and just so you guys know, Dedede down throw chaingrab can still work on some characters (most notably Kirby and Luigi.)


It is avoidable with DI though....


But I like his chaingrab. Maybe give it some sort of a growth so it's not an infinite?

If they DI down and away you can't CG once. Non-issue as DI is everything in B+.

 

[Marth175]

I can see how the up smash can link together sometimes...

but seriously, DI, son. DI.


Ok, I tried on D3...it's a lot better...close to being too good..


but still, it's not broken. I mean, Falco is a fricking combo character. Just stop whining and get over it.

lol im not complaining, falco is my second main so im good with it , but just thought id mention it to know if this was intentional or not

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ok about the falco thing..


But the d3 chaingrab infinite is still possible on DK. like the nonmoving one.

and I don't think you can avoid it. @_@

 

[shanus]

Ok about the falco thing..


But the d3 chaingrab infinite is still possible on DK. like the nonmoving one.

and I don't think you can avoid it. @_@

Grab two controllers.

1/4 speed

Grab with D3 and then throw DK and hold down+right on DK's controller.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I have a feeling this is rhetorical...


and I miss Dedede's chaingrab


..yup Donkey kong can avoid it. GRRRRRRRRR I want his chaingrab back. But not the infinite.

 

[kupo15]

EDIT: I can't find any vids on youtube...all I get is team fortress two stuff. >.>

Search DJNintendo melee and find a match on YI

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I see O_O


Well, i would like that to be in brawl+ if possible.

 

[IC3R]

And yeh matt... Kirby...need more nerfs... Kirbys throws need tweaking to stop wtf gay combos on just about everyone... and a bair tweak...

What do you suggest, specifically?

 

[jalued]

What do you suggest, specifically?

maybe an increase to BKB on uptilt, or change upair angle (more behind kirby)

 

[Mattnumbers]

I say give Bair some endlag so it's actually punishable on miss/dodge/shield.

 

[Alphatron]

lol @ Squirtle needing nerfs. Also, without teching or DI, many characters suddenly become OP.


For Bowser, how about HA on his opening dash only instead? He could bring foxtrotting back as an approach.

Edit: Bair doesn't need to be punishable at all. He already can't WoP with it if you DI up. Reducing its power may allow it to combo into itself. Maybe a slight hitbox nerf so its not disjointed anymore...perhaps.

 

[matt4300]

What do you suggest, specifically?

Up the Base on fthrow leave the growth the same (stoping the fthrow fair re-grab chains)

Bair- Angle change from what looks like 50 or so to somewhere in the 65-75 so he can't **** every char with a bad recovery at 80 and the biggest problem: shrink the hitbox just enough to match the animations so its not an instant redic hitbox. Its gay disjointed atm.

More base on utilt kinda like what was done to foxes

these changes will stop all the stupid sans skill combos and chains... while makeing his bair less of the be all end all against chars with bad recoverys.

 

[thesage]

Squirtle's fine how he is now...

 

[Mattnumbers]

The characters that I think need nerfs most are Kirby and MK, but that's because I have more experience playing against them in Brawl+ than the other really good characters.

 

[timothyung]

Something that's always annoying me and make me puzzled is that characters can't be grabbed when they are lying on the ground, but they can be attacked as usual. I just don't understand what Sakurai is thinking when he designed this...
If it turns out to be a bad design, I want this to be fixed in Brawl+. I know it's in Melee too... but why? Someone explain this to me?

 

[NC-Echo]

Squirtle could use a nerf or two in my opinion.

 

[IC3R]

I did not direct my question towards either of you, but I shall reply anyway...

maybe an increase to BKB on uptilt, or change upair angle (more behind kirby)

I can understand why you would want a slight increase to Utilt's BKB, since it combos into itself out-of-shield and his Dthrow. It would have to be minor, so that aerials would be able to follow behind it. Speaking of which, what purpose would changing the angle of Uair to ~135 degrees have? I can see Kirby's Stairway to Heaven combo still working--very awkwardly, but still--and it would link into Bair and a turnaround Fair much more easily...but that's just my theory.

What if we turned it into it's Melee counterpart, where it sends up-and-behind, but it is a killing move, instead of a combo move? (Read: NOOOO!!!! D=)

I say give Bair some endlag so it's actually punishable on miss/dodge/shield.

Tacking on endlag will make the Bair Fence'o'Pain impossible, or just extremely difficult to do. Judging by the mention of the shield, it seems you merely want the Bair's ALR to be lessened slightly--(correct me if I am wrong). If you can find an "acceptable" value, please post it.


Anyone else?


Disclaimer: I am, by no means, a Kirby expert, but I've played with him enough to know how his moves run and link. >_>;

 

[kupo15]

So I tried to fix bowsers upB mobility to best allow it to fortress hog but no dice :-\

It didn't work because that isn't how it worked in melee. Bowser didn't have good jiggs mobility in melee with up b and in fact, you don't even need to to hold towards the stage to fortress cancel which further proves that mobility has nothing to do with it. It works because bowsers grab location. He has better grab sweet spot range out (like falcon) and up as well. His sweet spot range below the ledge is poor. So when you fortress cancel, it works because you are in sweet spot range the moment you leave the platform which is why you auto sweet spot without having to DI towards the stage.

 

[matt4300]

I did not direct my question towards either of you, but I shall reply anyway...

Anyone else?

Wait the question was directed at me... yet you reply to the guys you did not direct your question towards... lol?

 

[IC3R]

Wait the question was directed at me... yet you reply to the guys you did not direct your question towards... lol?

I may as well have; they had suggestions, and you didn't...yet you asked for Kirby nerfs...lol?

So I ask again, Matt4300, what Kirby nerfs do you suggest?

 

[leafgreen386]

will the BtL2 tournament really use Brawl+ Gold or are they just saying that?

Given the mechanics changes that will be implemented in some couple months, I think it's horribly flawed to call this a "gold release." Regardless of what people may call it, it is merely going to be a highly stable beta build that will be in place for a few months while the mechanics revamps are being taken care of. It will not be the "final" brawl+ build.

edit: actually, I think I'm going to repost this in the tourney thread. This is really unnecessary confusion and should be cleared up.

 

[Doval]

Regarding the topic of Bowser HA crawling through projectiles vs powershielding them: I'd like to point out that as it is, Powershielding isn't working as it originally did in vBrawl and Melee. Powershielding isn't supposed to reduce shield stun, and thus it doesn't really give you a frame advantage. On the offensive side of things, all it does is give you more options by letting you attack during the lag of releasing your shield, but it's not like it lets you attack sooner than you normally would've unless you use something faster than a grab or Up-B.

The thing is, the code that increased shielding stun didn't affect powershielding, so right now you only get vBrawl's shield stun when you powershield, instead of Brawl+'s. If this were to be fixed (and in my opinion it should be, as right now the frame advantage for powershielding is way too big) then powershielding a projectile wouldn't give you any advantage over shielding it normally besides not suffering shield damage. That is unless of course someone eventually manages to reimplement the reflector effect into powershielding.

 

[Alphatron]

I may as well have; they had suggestions, and you didn't...yet you asked for Kirby nerfs...lol?

So I ask again, Matt4300, what Kirby nerfs do you suggest?

He posted his suggestions on this same page actually.

 

[matt4300]

Up the Base on fthrow leave the growth the same (stoping the fthrow fair re-grab chains)

Bair- Angle change from what looks like 50 or so to somewhere in the 65-75 so he can't **** every char with a bad recovery at 80 and the biggest problem: shrink the hitbox just enough to match the animations so its not an instant redic hitbox. Its gay disjointed atm.

More base on utilt kinda like what was done to foxes

these changes will stop all the stupid sans skill combos and chains... while makeing his bair less of the be all end all against chars with bad recoverys.

Dude look up!

 

[leafgreen386]

Regarding the topic of Bowser HA crawling through projectiles vs powershielding them: I'd like to point out that as it is, Powershielding isn't working as it originally did in vBrawl and Melee. Powershielding isn't supposed to reduce shield stun, and thus it doesn't really give you a frame advantage. On the offensive side of things, all it does is give you more options by letting you attack during the lag of releasing your shield, but it's not like it lets you attack sooner than you normally would've unless you use something faster than a grab or Up-B.

The thing is, the code that increased shielding stun didn't affect powershielding, so right now you only get vBrawl's shield stun when you powershield, instead of Brawl+'s. If this were to be fixed (and in my opinion it should be, as right now the frame advantage for powershielding is way too big) then powershielding a projectile wouldn't give you any advantage over shielding it normally besides not suffering shield damage. That is unless of course someone eventually manages to reimplement the reflector effect into powershielding.

I thought the problem was just that vbrawl's powershielding was ******** and canceled shieldstun, too?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

It didn't work because that isn't how it worked in melee. Bowser didn't have good jiggs mobility in melee with up b and in fact, you don't even need to to hold towards the stage to fortress cancel which further proves that mobility has nothing to do with it. It works because bowsers grab location. He has better grab sweet spot range out (like falcon) and up as well. His sweet spot range below the ledge is poor. So when you fortress cancel, it works because you are in sweet spot range the moment you leave the platform which is why you auto sweet spot without having to DI towards the stage.

Just so everybody knows, in Melee, the effortless Fortress Hog can only be done on ledges where the ground slopes downwards at the ledge (e.g. Yoshi's Story, Corneria [not the fin]). If the ground is flat (or sloping upwards) at the ledge, it'll take some skill to Fortress Hog it.

 

[IC3R]

He posted his suggestions on this same page actually.

Dude look up!

My bad (._.);

It looks like he edited his post whilst I was working on my own...I didn't notice.


Anyways...I can see why you want the Bair's angle to be changed, but changing the size of the hitbox...I dunno. It's Kirby's only real option for defensive aerial play, and taking away the disjoint may end up getting outprioritized by...everything. If anything, as I had mentioned in my reply Mattnumbers, the ALR can be lessened to where it can still put up a small wall, but it won't be entirely safe against a shield/dodge.

I think the angle change and maybe 60% ALR would be fine, but if it absolutely needs to be shrunk, keep enough disjoint so it can beat out Falcon's Knee (._.);


As for the F-throw, I suppose tweaking the BKB a bit wouldn't be terrible, see how some heavies and fastfallers get chained 3-4 times. I'm just iffy on it because if it goes up too much---- Fthrow -> Fair -> Fthrow -> Aerial Hammer on midweights might not work anymore...and that's one of my favorite combos