Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[camelot]

About the bowser changes: How exactly would heavy armor on his nair help? It's a pretty useless move to begin with, and a good bowser player really shouldn't be using it. There are almost ALWAYS better options.

But see, if he had HA on his n-air, combined with the size increase/angle changes on the hitbox, I would guess it would be a much better attack/defense option than it is now. Plus you could n-air through Falco's lasers, Samus' homing missiles, etc.

or you could just stop posting

Oh snap

 

[IC3R]

But see, if he had HA on his n-air, combined with the size increase/angle changes on the hitbox, I would guess it would be a much better attack/defense option than it is now. Plus you could n-air through Falco's lasers, Samus' homing missiles, MK's Whorenado, etc.

You forgot something ^^

Oh snap

Indeed.



Would putting IASA on Bowser's Firebreath have a similar effect to the IASA on Ganon's U-tilt? Would speeding up the cooldown be better?

 

[Dan_X]

or you could just stop posting

Rofl!

I'm quite happy with the path the WBR is taking, releasing this next official set and holding off 4-5 months to release another build. It makes sense for them to take their time with the amount of gameplay mechanic related changes proposed.

I'm also willing to bet that openSA will also be very useful over that 4-5 month span... If it hasn't already.

I'm curious as to what Brawl+ will be like in a year, how different it will be.

 

[timothyung]

or you could just stop posting

Or THINK for a bit before posting something?

The HA crawl feels unnatural, yes. A Link almost never stands still/crouch to block projectiles because it's an unnatural input, and (perfect) shielding is almost always a better option.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Has anyone considered buffing Bowser's Dair to deal with that blind spot below him?

About the trouble with projectiles... Heavy Armor on everything? :V

 

[metaXzero]

Or THINK for a bit before posting something?

The HA crawl feels unnatural, yes. A Link almost never stands still/crouch to block projectiles because it's an unnatural input, and (perfect) shielding is almost always a better option.

Bad example. Link's shield requires him to sit still and not move to work. And it's shielding ability when standing up is inconsistent thanks to the idle animation.

Bowser's HA crawl allows him to have all his options while approaching through most weak projectiles (meaning once he gets to the opponent's comfort zone, he's not limited in his tools to attack or react to the opponents new attack).

 

[timothyung]

But they are both examples of unnatural inputs... and Link can block projectiles when crouching.
And Bowser's crawl is too slow for it to be effective

 

[jalued]

But they are both examples of unnatural inputs... and Link can block projectiles when crouching.
And Bowser's crawl is too slow for it to be effective

The crawl speed has already been discused and will prob b sped up.and why does no one mention in the bowser, falco matchup, that falco is loosing double laser in favor of shff laser. Which won't b as good at completely pining his fat *** down. Wish people would read more

 

[timothyung]

But his HA crawl will still be ineffective vs Falco's lasers because you can simply PS them. It's main uses will be against jabs. But they can grab out of it...
Do you think SA on the enter crouch animation work? It will work like Oli's downB

 

[kupo15]

or you could just stop posting

too pro! rofl =D

Sage: Just think before posting and leave your posts up. My posts are not perfect but I keep them up anyway.

 

[Alphatron]

I mainly see the crouch/crawl thing as something everyone playing against Bowser will get used to. No one spams projectiles when close to an enemy, and most chars have aerials or ground moves that can break through the HA. Or if you shield, they'll get used to grabbing. But we'll see how it turns out.

I'm interested in the IASA on firebreath, as well as how Sheik will be in the next set.

 

[proteininja]

Bowser isn't even all of the way inside his shell on crawl. i hate the idea of it, and when I try to use it it gets punished, and it feels unnatural.

PLEEAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEE!!! Don't make this a part of his game. It isn't fun or cool at all. It makes you look like a fool. And the implementation of it feels like someone is just trying to put a big patch over some bowser problems instead of going in and doing surgery.

On his dair and neutral air it makes more sense as he is in his shell. Also, if the neutral air was buffed a little it would make a great move for approaching through projectiles. it crosses the horizontal distance much faster.

If there was HA on his down air. he may be able to reach the ground more easily, but SA on dair would be better as most aerials are above 7%.

And TBH weak heavy armor on Bowser as a character does not sound like the most horribly overpowered thing in the world. he could still be comboed and killed and damaged, but the opponent could not use the same easy mode combos they always do. They would have to think and adapt to not use moves that are too weak for kb.

The moral of the story is if in the next set i am going to have to CRAWL ON MY HANDS AND KNEES during every...single...match when I am the true Dark Lord of Mushroom Kingdom, then I will probably just pick up another character.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ok... I get it...stop quoting the guy who dissed me badly. Delorted guy, I believe.


Proteininja....I don't think you understand. Anyone with full heavy or super armor on them at ANY time is OP. There is no reason bowser should just be immune to certain attacks one hundred percent of the time. You DO realize that the HA on crawl is very useful, correct? You can go through lasers. You can go through jabs. YOU CAN FREAKING CRAWL OVER DIDDY'S BANANAS. But, you're not FORCED to crawl the entire match. In fact, Bowser has another great move that actually has superarmor, and I see bowsers not using this enough: Whirling Fortress. If you time it perfectly, you will have invulnerability until the first hitbox comes out. So, in essence, It is a 1-frame startup move.


But back to crawling. You can shield out of crawling. It's only like a 2 frame transition, and it gives you ALL of your options back. You can Whirling Fortress OoS after a HA crawl. You don't seem to realize the fact that Bowser has MANY options other than having to crawl all over the place.

~SS12

 

[NC-Echo]

Sage you don't actually play as Bowser do you.

 

[shanus]

So I tried to fix bowsers upB mobility to best allow it to fortress hog but no dice :-\

I did improve bowsers fair shield damage, physics, and the hitbox for utilt can now get opinions in front of him as well.

 

[smashmaniac2008]

will the BtL2 tournament really use Brawl+ Gold or are they just saying that?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

You mean options in front of him?

And... you already CAN fortress hog. You just have to start the up b a little away from the ledge, facing towards the center of the stage.

 

[shanus]

You mean options in front of him?

And... you already CAN fortress hog. You just have to start the up b a little away from the ledge, facing towards the center of the stage.

You can fortress hog at specific points in the move which arent that useful. Go watch vids of melee fortress hog vs current fortress hog

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Hm.....I didn't know that it could only be done at specific points now. I do it all the time. @_@


Well, if you can fix it, kudos to you, I guess.

EDIT: I can't find any vids on youtube...all I get is team fortress two stuff. >.>

 

[NC-Echo]

Yea I was hoping for increased mobility on the fortress but what can you do. I am excited to test the next patch. Should be out soon right?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I've been hearing either today or tomorrow.

And you've fixed up b momentums for several other people, I'm sure Bowser won't be THAT impossible to do. But take your time if you have to.

 

[timothyung]

ganon, falcon, toon link, and bowser upB momentum [Phantom Wings, The Paprika Killer]

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh, snap, I misinterpreted mobility as momentum.

But the point stands, please do not give up on fixing fortress hogging.

 

[proteininja]

I guess what I am asking is that bowser's unique problems be addressed with something other than making his crawl more viable.

i know that crawl is useful to others as they can crawl under the projectiles and bowser can't, but i would much prefer a better form of approach such as PS, PS, Roll, to HA neutral air. Then you would only take one shot while covering the distance where as with crawl you must commit to the crawl entirely or else it is not as effective as his other crappy approach options.

Perhaps adding speed to his crawl will make this tactic more useful, but I ask that all other options be investigated. I am only posting so much because Bowser is definitely a lower tier character right now, and i know whatever comes in the next day for him is going to stick for a few months.

Edit: And Falcon's raptor boost is safe on shield and can't be side stepped. wtf?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It can be side stepped...he just still goes through with the animation.

 

[JCaesar]

Edit: And Falcon's raptor boost is safe on shield and can't be side stepped. wtf?

Most jabs and tilts beat it outright. Just takes timing.

 

[proteininja]

Most jabs and tilts beat it outright. Just takes timing.

I'll give it a try.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I think I remember this from vbrawl..

can't most tilts beat out falcon punch, too?

 

[NC-Echo]

You can grab him out of it as bowser with good timing.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh, and just so you guys know, Dedede down throw chaingrab can still work on some characters (most notably Kirby and Luigi.)


It is avoidable with DI though....


But I like his chaingrab. Maybe give it some sort of a growth so it's not an infinite?

 

[CountKaiser]

Won't need it if it's avoidable with DI.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

awwwwwwwwwww but I like the chaingrab ;_;


I'd try to make my own and make it not broken...


If only PSA worked with Dedede....

 

[Scidadle]

FALCO IS TOOOO GOOOD.

Shine shouldn't pull you in D:

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It's called a combo move.

and you can DI it. >.> and punish.

It's not OP at all. You just have to learn, son.

 

[Marth175]

i dont know if its been mentioned before but falcos upsmash is broken, its too weak so you can hit with it like 5 or 6 times, racking up an impressive 50% or even 70% on some characters

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It's called DI. SDI. Tech. Avoid. Punish.

 

[timothyung]

Are you doing it on a CPU? Or a person who doesn't DI at all?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It wouldn't even work that well on a cpu, because they know how to tech >.>


EDIT: I tried spamming this "broken upsmash" on a cpu. The bowser managed to koopa klaw me out of it.

 

[Plum]

Yeah, I find it funny how those most hurt by his original CG/infinite (Bowser, DK, DDD and etc.) are now fine, and those immune to his original (super floaties) can be CG'd.

Even though it is avoidable depending on DI, it is something to look into fixing. I'll see what I can do next time I'm at my Wii, or maybe the WBR already changed it for all I know (it was brought up a while ago that he can still CG certain characters). Right now it sends you up so high, and the floaties take their **** time when making their way to the ground like every other character; it allows you to go for the regrab on them. Basically what the throw needs to have basically all gayness removed is to send at a much lower angle, more like the original Dthrow, but actually tumble every character at any percent.

As long as its tech chasing options aren't hurt, I could truthfully care less about what happens to it as somebody who plays more DDD than any other character (sorry G&W and Wario ._.). As long as I can chase you, I'm going to pseudo CG you across the stage regardless.

Spoiler

Unless of course you are one of those characters who's forward tech roll is too long to get a regrab off of T_T

 

[CloneHat]

awwwwwwwwwww but I like the chaingrab ;_;


I'd try to make my own and make it not broken...


If only PSA worked with Dedede....

It's not broken, dammit.

It's been established you can DI.