Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[zxeon]

You respond quickly.

 

[Melomaniacal]

When will I be able to crawl-dash to the right anyway?

 

[proteininja]

I just watched your second and first match. You don't do any spacing at all.. you were just sitting there and waiting, playing a very reactionary game; you were still playing vbrawl style. Bowser plays a very defensive game, but that doesn't mean you should sit and wait; you need to space your ftilts and fairs like an Ike, constantly throw them out to protect yourself. You're also letting the falcon player read you really easily, too. I really hope someone else can confirm what I'm saying to make me seem like less of an ***.

So my judgment is that.. you need lots more practice before you can tell the backroom what they need to do with characters.

Way to not watch all of them. I recorded three with Ness to prove that it wasn't me. It was bowser. Bowser has to be reactionary because he has no safe options.

Fail.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Me and my really fast yet bad typing...yay...like 70 to 100 WPM...yaaaaaaaaaaaaay


Anyways, I'd be fine with sped up crawls as long as they don't have that slidy glitch (not crawldashing)


Let's talk about ledge stuff, now. How far are we on the new stuff like smaller range, no ASL on side b's, etc?

And I'm slower at typing than usual because I have a cold and can't think straight. XD

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Way to not watch all of them. I recorded three with Ness to prove that it wasn't me. It was bowser. Bowser has to be reactionary because he has no safe options.

Fail.

I didn't have to watch your Ness matches to know that you don't know what you're doing.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I didn't have to watch your Ness matches to know that you don't know what you're doing.

Eh...I'm kind of agreeing with both sides. His Bowser does not space well, but "spacing" is a very loose term, and it very different between ness and bowser.

It's kinda like comparing apples to an apple-orange hybrid. Close, but it doesn't exactly work.

 

[The Cape]

You may not have (although half the knockback on Dair, WTF?), the game did. Snake always has been the easiest character to combo and juggle, and that's gotten worse here. Snake does not need tilt nerfs; he's fine as is.

Ok, I am dying here.

THe half knockback on that move is so that it properly links. When we removed the move decay the move stopped linking properly and doing that to that hit makes it link better. So its an (OMG) Snake buff. As I recall thats the only thing we have done to him so far, so whats that? We buffed Snake?

As for Snake, his game is exactly the same as it was in vBrawl with more options. Its actually laughably easier to play him now due to the fact that his aerials have half landing lag which allows for more use of said moves. No move decay makes tilts BETTER, faster C4 (OMG ANOTHER BUFF) assists Snake's recovery even more so, and Snake's U smash, grenades, snake slide, C4, D smash, etc still gives him insane stage control. Add in non decaying Nair that autocancels, dair to U tilt as a legit combo thanks to the 50% ALR, and all the other crap the game physics gave him he is an insane character.

Nerfing the range on his U tilt and F tilt will force the player to use more of Snake's good options and he will most likely receive a small buff to his fair or upB to assist with his still bad recovery.

Also, dont forget his sick first hit F tilt to resets and tech chases. Thats just silly and guess what. The game buffed Snake on that one, not us.

Bowser:
This is a sore subject with me because I played a ton of Bowser in Melee and still play him now.

Lets go with what people were asking about.

HA on crouch and crawl:
Allows for an approach on anything 8% or less. This beats our jab grab, MK tornado, falco lasers, Samus homing missiles, and many other things.
"I cant do it"; "Crouch to stand is too slow" etc: Answer: Crouch to sheild. Its a 2 or 3 frame transition and gives you ALL of your options.:
- Falco is lasering you and he jumps in, sheild to U tilt. He goes flying.
- Fox shffles you: Sheild to upB
- MK does tornado (OMG USED TO BE A COUNTER MATCH WITH ONE MOVE): Crouch cancel and crawl with it, powersheild the last hit, charge F smash. Take 17%, do 32% GG!

So yea, HA on crouch and crawl is a huge improvement as it allows Bowser to handle quite a few of the negative options with proper and intelligent use.

Fire Breath:
Bowser firebreath does great damage and can keep people at bay. Keep blowing fire until they DI out behind you, then prepare for them to try to attack you. Sheild to upB anyone?
Best on the ledge. And whats good at getting people off the ledge? Back throw!

Throws:
Bowser has a SICK grab grab with dash grab's range and relatively quick winddown. D throw does an amazing 16% and sets up for a tech chase. With good timing you can D throw to D throw for 32% and get them to the edge. Then F or B throw them off to fire breath. Lots of damage there.

Edgeguarding:
D smash has a longer duration than the ledge invulnerability, use this to force people off the ledge. D tilt hits anything above the ledge quickly and painfully. Down angled F tilt hits below the stage and smacks a good deal of recoveries. Bair has a semi spike angle and hits people really low. Fair: take this bad boy off the stage and hilarity ensues. Bowser destroys off the stage.

KOs:
Bowser weak nair links to F smash, U smash, U tilt and Koopa Klaw. The move has a bigger hitbox and has fairly good priority. It beats out Snake mortar for example and then pops him up to a grab. Free damage! DownB out of sheild on a badly timed aerial that hits high on your sheild or a smash attack thats badly spaced. KOs at 80% or so. U throw to Uair: What is this, fox? No it kills at lower percents.

Weaknesses:
Recovery, due to the lack of height and priority on the upB you can be in trouble on recovery. Forces you to play smarter and be cautious on this.
Size: Bowser is huge, learn to DI and be tricky about getting back to the stage where your huge body is an advantage with grabs and upB out of sheild


Any questions?

Snake has a ton more options than he did in plus and all his old ones from vBrawl. Bowser is a ridiculous character if you understand his playstyle at all. Thinking man's character. Its almost as if we know what we are doing with this game or something.


However, if you still think that we are doing something wrong with these characters then we encourage you to go out and code your own changes (or get someone who will do it for you) and give it to us to test. We may get some good ideas. We work hard on this project and dont apprecitate complaints without real evidence, so either go out and get lots of match videos and show them to us, or program your changes so we can test them out.

Thank you.

 

[GHNeko]

Wait, you have falcon's knee hit on frame 1 instead of its default 14?

I think the Brawl Knee sweetspot operates in a fashion that it sweetspots on first frame, unlike melee.

 

[proteininja]

Love you cape...

Sorry.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[kupo15]

I think the Brawl Knee sweetspot operates in a fashion that it sweetspots on first frame, unlike melee.

unlike melee? Huh? So you are saying that the first frame the knee hitbox comes out in melee was a flub, then was the sweet spot? You make no sense. Both knees come out the exact same, except the sweet spot in brawl is 2 frames IIRC and melee was at prob 4. I'm saying that it would be better to have the smaller range and 4 frame sweet spot than the 2 frame sweet spot and a big range.

 

[CloneHat]

Doesn't Melee have like a 14 frame sweetspot? That would be OP'ed as hell awesome!

 

[Dantarion]

LOL at all the washdash talk.

I just set the crawl speed to a really high value to see if it was working right.

I tried for like 10 min to get rid of the slide, then realized that crawldashing in vbrawl is the exact same phenomenon that i was experiencing, except with an extreme crawling speed it was even more obvious.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

GAH!!i!!!!!

 

[NC-Echo]

Cape, most of the things you suggested are not possible... Fire-breath to shield to up-b! Are you kidding. It has way too much lag when you end it to avoid getting hit by opponents who s-di to punish. Characters with good recoveries Bowser can't edge-guard. For example, good luck edge-guarding a good peach. HA on crawl doesn't help that much at all because you don't get any reward for doing it. A good Falco is not just gonna eat a u-tilt just because you pushed him to the side. A good mk is gonna tornado away before the moves ends so that they don't get punished.

In fact in your post you didn't respond at all to the lengthy example I brought up.

Its almost as if we know what we are doing with this game or something.

I don't think you do.

 

[The Cape]

I didnt read your example as there were pages of stuff to read, please quote it and I will address it.

Also, program your changes and lets try them.

 

[iLink]

I don't see how the HA helps bowser much with falco's lasers. If you try to approach him by crawling your just gonna take a sideb to the face. Even if you do shield it, he can just run over to the other ledge and keep camping lasers.

 

[NC-Echo]

Also, program your changes and lets try them.

I don't have the ability to program changes and asking me to is to is stupid. You are supposed to balancing the game not making excuses for why you shouldn't have to.

 

[The Cape]

So I should take my hard earned time to program your changes I dont agree with instead of your learning the very simple programming method or going on the IRC channel to request someone to help you do so? That makes no sense to me.

It is not my JOB to make this game balanced for people that dont understand it, if we were to do that, Ness would still be ******** broken and MK would be untouched.

 

[NC-Echo]

I'm telling you the things you proposed as methods to utilize bowser do not work. Your suggested use of fire-breath is laughable, and suggested that I don't understand the game so that you can try to make your point seem more valid is ignorant and rude.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232823&page=719

 

[The Cape]

But your saying that I dont know what I am doing on the balancing of the game while I have been on the project for months and we have been doing excellent work isnt ignorant or rude?

If you dont agree with what we are doing with the game you can definetly suggest changes, or program them yourself which further proves that you are supportive of what you think, but coming in and trashing people for the hard work they have been trying to do is insulting and ignorant.

I recall when I was at your house in March and you told me that Sonic sucked, but refused to try anything other than U throw uair or sweetspotting with upB. Then when I made suggestions you told me I didnt know what I was talking about and you could balance the game better.

Honestly I would like to see you do so, I would like to see what you can do as the programming is easy to learn. Plenty of people will teach you to use the program and I would be genuinely interested in your take of Brawl+

 

[NC-Echo]

I don't have the time nor patience to program and I appreciate that you and other people are willing to program but how it is working it bad. You are the authority on bowser in the br so what you say is what goes, thats what i've been told from those in br. The problem is that when someone presents a bowser problem you just come in and say there wrong without giving any reason why. I'm glad you do well with bowser but that doesn't mean bowser is fine how he is. That likely means you are better than your opponents. Bowser definitely does well against certain characters, but the fact of the matter is that bowser cannot deal with camping from aerials or projectiles. There really isn't anyway to argue that.

 

[The Cape]

Bowser has problems with projectiles for sure, but the SA was actually a good way to approach if you can use it with dashing sheild and good spacing as well. He is also receiving it on crouch in the next set. Aerial camping can be a problem for Bowser for sure, but if the person lands close enough (which is anything without an extended hitbox) Bowser can hit with upB out of sheild. The faster up angled F tilt is also a decent option as it has good range and spacing and can swat even Ganon's fair out of the air. Even if he cannot do that he can DI full away and usually get relatively to safety. Wario and Marth are his worst matchups, but they will continue to be bad matchups as thats just how Bowser is programmed sadly.

For your suggestions, I reviewed that and will explain my thoughts on them.

1. Give his firebreath IASA frames so that he can have a safe option.
- I actually really like this idea and may consider it, but firebreath is already an option that has rare uses. Until this upcoming set the move locked the opponent very well and did excellent damage, forcing the opponent to DI out at the end of the stream. If they DIed towards Bowser and managed to trade with him to knock him out of firebreath Bowser would usually come out ahead in the damage trade, which is good for a heavy character. In the next set we have made Bowser firebreath a bit easier to smash DI and the IASA frames that you suggested may be a good counter to that so that Bowser does not come out in the negative on a well placed fire breath.

2. Give his f-air more shield stun and less landing lag so he has a safe option.
- With good spacing the fair actually already is fairly safe on sheild since you can jab or F tilt most approaches from the sheild. This allows Bowser to get some decent pressure on the sheild and allow him to keep his opponent at bay. We have also increase Bowser's fair damage on sheilds in the upcoming set which should further his ability to do this. The less landing lag is unneeded if you space the fair vertically well and hit the sheild lower. This should be easier with the new physics that we gave to Bowser.

3. Reduce the damage that he takes so that the reward system is more balanced for him.
- We actually tried this in a really early build and after we found out that the KBG and DMG are directly linked we discovered that this actually makes it easier to combo Bowser, therefore creating more damage on Bowser. We looked into compensating the KB on Bowser so that it would counteract the less damage but so far it has deemed to be a mathmatical and coding nightmare.

4. Increase the damage he deals so that the reward system is more balanced for him.
- We actually did a few of these. D throw now does 16 damage, Fair and F tilt both have +3 damage from before, and Bowser's more powerful B throw and F smash and his ability to U throw to fair or uair allows him to KO lower than ever before, making damage less important. Bowser downB also had a KB boost so that it kills as low as 80% on most characters.

5. Give him some way to be able to get out of juggles so he doesn't take so much damage after every hit. There are several ways in which this could be done.
- He had floatier physics for this and the faster nair that was given to him, with good DI you can actually force your opponent to end their combos earlier in most situations and then use your nair to get them off you or set them up for a damaging throw combo of your own (or F smash). With the new physics (which gives him a lower to ground and faster shffl like in Melee) this may be more of an issue. If it becomes one we will definetly look into it.

So most of your suggestions we have actually either looked at in the past or already exist. The IASA on the firebreath is something very interesting that I personally would like to look into and we might do, but please consider this information for Bowser as he stands now. To me he is a throw and thinking character and I think he plays best in that capacity. Other Bowsers may agree with me, but he is not the type of character that can play predictable, with bad spacing, or throwing himself at his opponent.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ignore post

 

[The Cape]

Toilet paper avatar guy, you call this no reasons for telling people why they are wrong?

Well he is right to an extent.

I am not around as often anymore as I have been training and travelling the country, but I would like to get more time to explain our changes and give my opinions when I have the opportunity. The last six months or so I havent really had much time to do so, but hope to do so in the future.

So he was correct.

Also, missed some NC-Echo points:

There is one last slightly related problem that I believe needs to be fixed also. If Bowser lands a f-b while the opponent is at a low percent the opponent can decide to suicide even if this is not a good outcome for the Bowser. Therefore in some situations the Bowser must remove the f-b from the list of options making the guessing game a great deal more skewed for his opponent. For instance in the example with Peach if Bowser cannot f-b then Peach can win every situation from the game just by sitting in shield and punishing.

I believe the best possible solution would be to make it so that Bowser's f-b goes straight up and straight down every time. Yea it makes it so you can't suicide as often but lets be honest, once your opponent at the percent where you can control the f-b its better to just kill him with a grab or f-air or whatever then it is to suicide and lose a stock as well.

If Bowser gets a sideB and is at lower percents and decides to suicide then he is either crazy or confident in winning. If Bowser is at the lower percent when he lands side B he deserves the control on the move.

Making the move go straight up would hinder alot of Bowser's options like manuvering the opponent to the top platform to ensure that they will die sooner from the move by reducing their distance from the top, or by forcing them to DI down which is where the real power of the move is concentrated.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Toilet paper avatar guy, you call this no reasons for telling people why they are wrong?

This post is unneeded.

And to avoid being completely hypocritical I will say this:

Everyone needs to remember that since the next official set is just about to come out, It's pointless to ask for physics changes right now. Wait till we're closer the the release after this for specific requests. Really only last minute character changes can be put in at this point, although those are risky to have in an official set.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

God, I hate it when I fail at argumements (which is like all the time)

and I contracted my statement

 

[NC-Echo]

My apologies if I was rude. I appreciate the work being done with brawl+ and overall I do think bowser is a fine character but there a few problems which he has that make some matches near unwinable. I honestly don't believe that either marth nor wario fit into this category but perhaps I am missing something. He has a lot of trouble with peach and toon link to name a few and ic's have a chaingrab to death on him which is also pretty dumb. As for Bowser doing more damage, I know you increased the damage he deals already I am saying that a little more damage on the correct moves may be appropriate. I have been playing brawl+ very analytically and I don't think bowser is necessarily bad but is definitely "low tier" and he definitely has some pretty bad match-ups.

 

[The Cape]

ICers infinite throws I actually neither considered nor honestly cared about as we would like to see the infinite (throw to throw) removed before the final version anyway. I can definetly see that as a rough match for sure. Peach can be a fairly challenging match, but her light weight makes her an easy candidate for U throw > Uair at about 75% (at the grab). Bowser has a few opportunities in this market and makes good use of his koopa klaw for damage in that matchup. Its one of the few where Bowser actually favors the opponent to be to his side instead of above him.

Toon Link's combos and range can definetly be an issue, but he also does not have many approaches where he can safely hit a combo move that Bowser cannot upB out of sheild on. TL is also fairly easy to tech chase due to his lack of quick moves on standup allowing Bowser to smartly chase with downthrows for that whopping 16% per throw. A good catch near the end can lead to weak nair > F smash for the KO as well.

Bowser also edgeguards TL fairly well if he can intercept TL during his jump, with practice, patience, and a good analysis of the TL player the Bowser can do this fairly well.

Definetly rough matchups and I think ICers might be the roughest one you mentioned (whom I always forget about) and I doubt Bowser will ever be top tier, but he definetly stands his chance and actually has a few favorable matchups that allow him to be at the very least a good secondary for some counter pick matches. He handles some of Mario's rough matches better than Mario himself (Snake for example).

I think the reason why I like Bowser so much is that he forced me to become a smarter player. This is one of the reasons that I feel I have adapted well to Brawl+ was due to my forcing myself to slow down and play smarter in Melee when I played Bowser. Thats also something that has transitioned to Brawl+. I feel Bowser is one of the hardest characters to play well, but he definetly has his niche.


You also mentioned, damaged buffs on "certain moves" which moves per say?

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think it's cool that since your giving Bowser HA on crouch as well, it can pretty much be considered an AT similar to Crouch Canceling.

 

[The Cape]

I think it's cool that since your giving Bowser HA on crouch as well, it can pretty much be considered an AT similar to Crouch Canceling.

On certain moves for sure.

I also forgot something. Making Bowser sideB go straight up would also be bad as he can no longer use it as a recovery move :-p

Bowser heavy armor > Ike's jabs. HA first two hits, PS third. Free sheild grab.

 

[Mattnumbers]

HA > most jabs

 

[kr3wman]

Free grab for Ike.

 

[Hyrus]

Bowser: HA on crouch and crawl:
Allows for an approach on anything 8% or less. This beats our jab grab, MK tornado, falco lasers, Samus homing missiles, and many other things.

The problem here is that "ducking" instead of shielding/dodging/rolling is an unnatural input, causes you to still take damage, and if misread ends with Bowser being hit and juggled when a simple shield would have done the job better.

Bowser has a SICK grab grab with dash grab's range and relatively quick winddown.

I'm pretty confident Bowser's grab range/winddown blows, but I wanted to dig up the frame data to back it. Bowser Dash Grab: Frame 10, move ends on 49. Luigi Dash Grab: Frame 12-13, move ends on 39. Snake Dash Grab: Frame 12, move ends on 29. I don't think B+ has altered those values. His grabs come out fast, but have terrible wind down and mediocre range considering the distance between the grab hitbox and his hurtbox.

D smash has a longer duration than the ledge invulnerability, use this to force people off the ledge. D tilt hits anything above the ledge quickly and painfully. Down angled F tilt hits below the stage and smacks a good deal of recoveries. Bair has a semi spike angle and hits people really low. Fair: take this bad boy off the stage and hilarity ensues. Bowser destroys off the stage.

Dsmash is decent at punishing getups from the ledge, but it has piss priority that will get beat out by any aerial or UpB. Bair and Fair can be decent off stage, but Bowser lacks a lot of mobility and speed to be aggressive. His blind spot (under him) coupled with the fact that people recover from lower in Brawl+ compounds the issue.

Bowser weak nair links to F smash, U smash, U tilt and Koopa Klaw. The move has a bigger hitbox and has fairly good priority. It beats out Snake mortar for example and then pops him up to a grab. Free damage! DownB out of sheild on a badly timed aerial that hits high on your sheild or a smash attack thats badly spaced. KOs at 80% or so. U throw to Uair: What is this, fox? No it kills at lower percents.

Bowser's Nair has a lot of startup and end lag compared to single hit Nair's in the game. The hitbox size is horrific compared to the size of the character and without a compensating feature. In what situation is Bowser going to be able to startup the attack, while airborn with crappy momentum, and get in a weak hit?

Fsmash and DownB(on stage) are mindgame material at best, not legitimate KO moves.

Weaknesses: Recovery.
Size: Bowser is huge, learn to DI and be tricky about getting back to the stage where your huge body is an advantage with grabs and upB out of sheild

where your huge body is an advantage with grabs and upB out of sheild

Uh huh.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or disrespectful, but that sounds like a lot of theorycraft and overemphasis on his lesser moves to try and make the character sound a lot better than he really is.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Bowser lacking mobility? Um....he's the ninth best aerial mobility in the game, son. Which is the like the second best tier of aerial mobility. >.>

 

[NC-Echo]

Addressing your mention of u-throw to u-air on peach. I have found that the opponent is able to di out of that, I think all the time; u-throw f-air works nicely though. As for ic's the grab I was referring to is not the infinite throw-throw one mentioned but rather a different one that works specifically on bowser. All you have to do as ic's is grab and d-b with nana and then release grab into the blizzard and regrab. Bowser is so big that he can't really get out of it at all and when he is at the right % the ic can just charge a smash.

As for toon link, the reason why I think the match is so bad is because the toon link can camp until you are in kill range then z-air (which autocancels) at range so that bowser can't punish and then when he finally hits, z-air leads into u-smash.

Kirby is also another problem character that I neglected to mention. B-air spam with good spacing can be infuriating.

As for which moves I would like to see do more damage I would say up-b is at the top of the list. If it sweetspots it does 16% which is great but often times you wont get the sweetspot to hit and all you hit for in that situation is a measly 5%. I would also like to see more mobility on his up-b but that is an unrelated point.

 

[kupo15]

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Can you really stop doing that? Why do I see so many of these?

 

[Deleted member]

...i love kupo

oh by the way can I be WBR?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I do so many of those because people get annoyed at my angriness, so I remove the posts as best I can.


Although, I guess just doing "ignore post" all the time would be more annoying than just leaving the post as is....

 

[Deleted member]

or you could just stop posting

 

[SymphonicSage12]

That doesn't matter if I've already made the post. And I deserve a right to speak my mind ( I realize that this is a very easily crossed line.)


About the bowser changes: How exactly would heavy armor on his nair help? It's a pretty useless move to begin with, and a good bowser player really shouldn't be using it. There are almost ALWAYS better options.


The only change that has been suggested that I might like is the IASA on firebreath, as firebreath actually has good uses.