Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[GHNeko]

He's not bad. He's still good. <_>

I dont think he's mid tier. I think he's high tier.

 

[Shell]

...That is just really, really ****ing stupid guys. You're nerfing a character who is already bad in this game.

Nah, he's pretty good. If you really need me to explain why I certainly can. As of several months ago most of the WBR agreed he was on the verge of top 10.

As of right now we're looking at various compensations. Try not to overreact until you can test it.

 

[CloneHat]

Snake isn't bad. He's just spammy. If the tilts are nerfed, Snake will suck. That's the problem.

He's so dependent on the tilts, he has no other options. He needs some OTHER OPTIONS.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Allow me to quote myself:

Well where will we trade off? Way faster dsmash? Stronger Usmash? A single aerial that will break combos? Let's face it, that's how snake plays. Without a serious change in what his attacks are (Nair which moves about 5x as fast?), there's not much you can boost on snake without polarizing him.

Also, how is snake good?

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yeah Snake isnt overpowered at all anymore. The WBR is overnerfing him imo. Do we want snake to be the worst character in the game or something?

 

[GHNeko]

Also, how is snake good?

Tilts, Nade, Tech Chase, Improved Stage Control, High Life Expectancy per stock, Buffed Recovery, Unstaling moves, Kill moves out the ***, Can **** characters at/on/around the ledge due to NASL. Did I mention he has hitstun now? And lowered hitlag makes some of his moves harder to Survival DI.

Majority of the same reasons from Brawl, really.

Obviously, they're not enough to make him top tier, but enough to have majority of people here agree he's high tier and can win tourneys. :V

Yeah Snake isnt overpowered at all anymore. The WBR is overnerfing him imo. Do we want snake to be the worst character in the game or something?

Overnerfing him? We've barely even touched the guy. :V

 

[CloneHat]

He's good because he has über-annoying grenades and he can tilt away at anyone who gets near him. That's about all the reasons.

You raise a good point about what to do in exchange. It doesn't help that all of his smashes are useless in CQC. Where's a Snake player...?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Yeah Snake isnt overpowered at all anymore. The WBR is overnerfing him imo. Do we want snake to be the worst character in the game or something?

Less logical fallacies, plz.

No one did anything to snake. There are a lot of complaints about the easiness of brawl+, and one of the aspects that make it seem easy are the combos, ones that lead into themselves, such as Snake's uptilt. So people are tossing around ideas of how to uncentralize snake's tilt game, or do something. I don't know. Stop being a whiny baby. Jesus. It's a game, people.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

He's good because he has über-annoying grenades and he can tilt away at anyone who gets near him. That's about all the reasons.

You raise a good point about what to do in exchange. It doesn't help that all of his smashes are useless in CQC. Where's a Snake player...?

I play snake. Also, Ally was just in the snake thread.

Tilts, Nade, Tech Chase, Improved Stage Control, High Life Expectancy per stock, Buffed Recovery, Unstaling moves, Kill moves out the ***, Can **** characters at/on/around the ledge due to NASL. Did I mention he has hitstun now? And lowered hitlag makes some of his moves harder to Survival DI.

Majority of the same reasons from Brawl, really.

Yeah, but....

Overnerfing him? We've barely even touched the guy. :V

You may not have (although half the knockback on Dair, WTF?), the game did. Snake always has been the easiest character to combo and juggle, and that's gotten worse here. Snake does not need tilt nerfs; he's fine as is.

 

[GHNeko]

I play snake. Also, Ally was just in the snake thread.

No offense to Ally, but sayings from people who barely play this game or dont even take it seriously enough to provide some LEGIT form of feedback, should be taken with a grain of salt.

You may not have (although half the knockback on Dair, WTF?), the game did. Snake always has been the easiest character to combo and juggle, and that's gotten worse here. Snake does not need tilt nerfs; he's fine as is.

Yes yes. He's gotten worse. What people are seemingly wanting to do is giving him the Fox make-over. You remember Fox in the days of 4.0 and 4.1. Yea sure. He wasn't the absolute best in the game, but he wasnt the worst. People claimed him as "fine as he is" but his game was overcentralized on Dair > Utilt and Dair > Usmash. He had plenty of other tricks to help him out like Shine gimping, but really, Dair > Utilt and Dair > USmash is what you really needed.

Now lets do something new here.

You remember Snake in the days of 4.2 and 5.0. Yea sure. He wasn't the absolute best in the game, but he wasnt the worst. People claimed him as "fine as he is" but his game was overcentralized on Ftilt > Ftilt and Nades > Nades. He had plenty of other tricks to help him out like Utilt, but really, Ftilt > Ftilt and Nade > Nade is what you really needed.

You see what I'm saying here? IF Snake took the route of Fox, the result could easily be favorable.

btw, I'm not for the range nerfs on Snake ftilt/utilt. I wanted to take a different approach.

 

[CloneHat]

Whatever, I no longer care about this issue. I don't play Snake.

If the mains are so unanimously set on Snake being a one-note band, scraping by on the roster with a few OP moves to balance out his useless ones... fine. Your loss.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

^ Exactly my thoughts, CloneHat.

If you guys are so fixed on the idea that even a grain of salt landing on snake's tilts will nerf them to the extreme, it is your loss.

In general, people need to be more open to changes.

 

[GHNeko]

People need to stop saying "omg be more open to change" because the hypocrisy of that statement is large enough to make both sides of bi-polar people facepalm.


Srsly.

 

[proteininja]

Everyone: WOAH! Snake changes!!!! I play him! I'm interested in making him as good as possible! Let's discuss it!

The Narator: And they never spoke of Bowser again...The End.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

People need to stop saying "omg be more open to change" because the hypocrisy of that statement is large enough to make both sides of bi-polar people facepalm.


Srsly.

Says the person from the people that ignore my every statement and shoot it down with their hypocratic favoritism.

 

[GHNeko]

Says the person from the people that ignore my every statement and shoot it down with their hypocratic favoritism.

Me != WBR. I don't agree with every single change made. I dont like how somethings have yet to be changed. I'm speaking for myself, as no WBR member has "the voice of WBR" except Shanus, and even that is just on occasion.

 

[stingers]

soo when are we gonna stop arguing and just let the game be

 

[shanus]

Says the person from the people that ignore my every statement and shoot it down with their hypocratic favoritism.

My hidden evil agenda has been discovered!

 

[WheelOfFish]

Proteininja, Ghneko wasn't saying that Snake should be made as good as possible by any means, but instead that Snake shouldn't be over-dependent on his tilts and grenades, which could be remedied by balancing out his moveset.

 

[GHNeko]

I like how there's an occasional glimpse of Logic in this thread. Makes it worth posting in. :V

 

[stingers]

you're talking about me right

seriously guys just let the game be D:

 

[CloneHat]

Wait WheelofFish...

People didn't get that until now?

 

[GHNeko]

you're talking about me right

seriously guys just let the game be D:

It will be after this next update. I'll lock this thread myself If I have to.

 

[stingers]

i'll hold you to that

 

[shanus]

i'll hold you to that

We are hoping to let the next set mature for a fair amount of time. So unless some gamebreaking bug is discovered like if I forget to zip my fly, it will be used for a while.

 

[CloneHat]

Sweet. There's been so much stuff that's been brought up recently, it'll be nice to have a break.

We should develop a metagame, have a lot of tourneys, and advertise Brawl+ while we're at it.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Wait WheelofFish...

People didn't get that until now?

Apparently not?

Anyone else's computers learning to tech? Mine are ridiculous at this point. I've been zero-deathed by a Mario, a Ness, and a Shiek. My friend has a video of a Ganon cpu attempting to SH -> side-b while he (my friend) rolling off a ledge. It didn't work, but still.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

We are hoping to let the next set mature for a fair amount of time. So unless some gamebreaking bug is discovered like if I forget to zip my fly, it will be used for a while.

I shall go ahead and resist the urge to say

Spoiler

"Shanus, your fly is undone."

and I think I found a gamebreaking bug:

/attempted humor


thank you for letting the next set mature for a bit. I'm still trying to learn some of these changes in this set.

 

[proteininja]

Proteininja, Ghneko wasn't saying that Snake should be made as good as possible by any means, but instead that Snake shouldn't be over-dependent on his tilts and grenades, which could be remedied by balancing out his moveset.

I didn't think it was possible, but you simultaneously missed the point and proved it.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Your point was that Bowser gets completely looked over while other characters get attention.

I didn't miss the point, I just had nothing to say. I've added to the Bowser conversation before, I'm sorry I failed to this time. I was just saying that your post made it sound like they were trying to break Snake.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Because WheelofFish is that awesome

 

[GHNeko]

Sweet. There's been so much stuff that's been brought up recently, it'll be nice to have a break.

We should develop a metagame, have a lot of tourneys, and advertise Brawl+ while we're at it.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=345

You can do that first one there. :V

 

[kupo15]

thank you for letting the next set mature for a bit. I'm still trying to learn some of these changes in this set.

You do realize that this means that if the WBR decides not to include any new mechanics changes that has been discussed in the past several weeks that the community liked, it won't be in for a long time, if ever (maybe)?

You better hope they are making all the numerous changes to the mechanics that everyone agreed on trying out

 

[CountKaiser]

So the next set will be an RC?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

****, I didn't think about that Kupo. Way to make me look even more dumb than usual.


*sobs*

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No offense to Ally, but sayings from people who barely play this game or dont even take it seriously enough to provide some LEGIT form of feedback, should be taken with a grain of salt.




Yes yes. He's gotten worse. What people are seemingly wanting to do is giving him the Fox make-over. You remember Fox in the days of 4.0 and 4.1. Yea sure. He wasn't the absolute best in the game, but he wasnt the worst. People claimed him as "fine as he is" but his game was overcentralized on Dair > Utilt and Dair > Usmash. He had plenty of other tricks to help him out like Shine gimping, but really, Dair > Utilt and Dair > USmash is what you really needed.

Now lets do something new here.



You see what I'm saying here? IF Snake took the route of Fox, the result could easily be favorable.

btw, I'm not for the range nerfs on Snake ftilt/utilt. I wanted to take a different approach.

What's your approach? And again, how do we return the buffs? Fox has the kind of moveset that works well enough in this game that virtually every attack on it's own is good; I couldn't name a single attack of fox that is bad in this game. By comparison, what does snake have? Clunky but powerful aerials, smashes that aren't worth **** as melee attacks... The only close range attacks snake has that are worth anything at all are utilt, ftilt, and jab.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

and down tilt...and grabs which can tech chase....

but snake isn't really meant as a melee character IMO. He's designed for mindgames and traps (mines + c4, obviously).


This is just my opinion though so feel free to flame.

 

[GHNeko]

What's your approach? And again, how do we return the buffs? Fox has the kind of moveset that works well enough in this game that virtually every attack on it's own is good; I couldn't name a single attack of fox that is bad in this game. By comparison, what does snake have? Clunky but powerful aerials, smashes that aren't worth **** as melee attacks... The only close range attacks snake has that are worth anything at all are utilt, ftilt, and jab.

My approach was simply on the issue of Ftilt. What I posted in that quote was an idea that would require ideas and input of people who main Snake and WBR. V:

What I personally wanted for Ftilt was...

I think Snake's ftilt would of been better off if it didnt push so much so that it could keep its range, but couldnt be mindlessly spammed and remained unpunished majority of the time.

Link can punish it because he's a tether grabber. With buffering and proper timing, any tether character and D3 can punish ftilt with grabs.

I'd think that reducing the push on ftilt (and maybe utilt) when it's blocked would of been way more reasonable because it would require proper spacing to remain unpunishable to most characters, but retain the qualities that make it lolwtf.

So that in turn, if Snake decides that ftilt is his favorite move, you can make him space improperly and punish accordingly.

Maybe even add some wind down lag to the second ftilt by 1-3 frames to further encourage proper spacing/timing/prediction rather than mindless spam.

Push the IASA on Ftilt 1 into Ftilt 2 to increase the gap of time between the 2 ftilts but not Ftilt > Grab or Jab.

These are just some ideas on how to work with Snake's ftilt to reduce the "spam" factor.

...Or something like that. idk.

:V

 

[shanus]

You do realize that this means that if the WBR decides not to include any new mechanics changes that has been discussed in the past several weeks that the community liked, it won't be in for a long time, if ever (maybe)?

You better hope they are making all the numerous changes to the mechanics that everyone agreed on trying out

A lot of the changes you proposed aren't going to be included for a multitude of reasons:

1. not everyone agreed on it

2. no1 figured out how to do it

3. no1 figured out how to do it (again for extra emphasis)

Using PSA and figuring out new operations isn't easy, and these large gameplay changes require a LOT of new development. I've been trying my hardest (getting closer to a working ledgetech fix), but am also greatly impeded by work as well. Working more than 50 hours a week certainly doesn't enable much time, either.

We'll include what we can, but frankly, a lot of these changes just don't seem possible with current tools. I thought I found ledgesnapping stuff, but it turned out to be fruitless.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

So I guess this means the delay of the next set? Take your time if you still need to figure out stuff.