Brawl+ could become a whole new game.

[Deleted member]

It could be the new DotA. If (or when) model / animation hacking is complete, I think we should really reconsider allowing new characters into an official build. For anyone concerned about balance, you should look how DotA adopts new heroes. (In-depth suggestion pages like we have, rigorous testing, until finally added into the latest map.)

I used to be against clone characters like Doc Mario and what not. I'm not exactly anymore, but **** clones. Let's see some brand new models and get some legitimate new characters going.

(I don't and can't hack, but I'm blown away by some of the stuff that emerges in this sub-forum. Congrats)

And btw, what is the likelihood of making SSE stages legal?

 

[stingers]

Backroom should be more open to new things yeah. I mean they've already changed so much, they really need to just hack the **** out of brawl lol.

 

[Sails]

There's a line between rebalancing/retooling the game and adding new content. I draw it for myself of course, but if Brawl+ stepped over that line in to adding new characters, I (And I would assume others) would be fairly annoyed. It just seems...odd.

Edit: It would also increase the workload on balancing the WBR has.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Way too early to be discussing that. When B+ is fully established for years and the community feels the need to introduce something new to spice things up why not, but not right now as adjustments are still being made (even if 5.0 RC1 is here to stay for a while).

 

[Deleted member]

I think the only reason you think that is because of the general sloppiness of the current clones. Lucario as Mewtwo? I'm sorry, it just doesn't work for me, but perhaps if the model was good.

If Brawl had DLC, would you be against new characters?

It's too early to discuss that? Isn't a bit arbitrary to demand large decisions be made years later?

 

[STUFF2o]

... why would anybody be against this? Isn't this the purpose of the Mewtwo, Roy, and Pichu .pac's? I think it's a great idea. If it doesn't replace characters, there's no harm that can be done to anybody.

 

[n88]

This comes up roughly all the time. Adding new characters is great and all. If they're high-quality, I'm all for it. But I don't think they need to be officially included in Brawl+. Perhaps as a separate project, or an offshoot, but there is a big difference between adding and changing content, as has been said.

Rather than trying to make the Backroom accept new characters, why not just create your own project (Once totally new characters really get going)? A database of new characters shouldn't be too hard to maintain, providing you have multiple people working on it, and you can decide whether they're balanced enough for inclusion in your sub-hack.

Or rather, you can decide that you want an all-Capcom roster, go do that, and make a project out of it. In short, if you really wanna see something done, take the initiative and do it yourself. Some projects falter (It's been a while since I've seen Brawl 64 on the front page), but if you stick with it and produce results, I imagine you'll gain quite the support-group.

If you can't hack yourself (I just noticed you said you couldn't XD) , then find someone (Or multipple someones) who can and is willing to help. This is the internet, and people love hacking Brawl. It can't be too hard.

 

[Deleted member]

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showforum=247

I may remind people that this game is played for a lot of money. Based off suggestions and basically home-made heroes that our community has done.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Rather than trying to make the Backroom accept new characters, why not just create your own project (Once totally new characters really get going)? A database of new characters shouldn't be too hard to maintain, providing you have multiple people working on it, and you can decide whether they're balanced enough for inclusion in your sub-hack.

This.

I honestly think that Brawl+ should stick to what it is and was; brawl, tweaked to be more competitive. The idea of it becoming a whole new game goes against the concept.

Instead of adding all this new stuff to b+, I recommend instead, that a new hacking project be made; or even 2, one similar to each of the existing biggies from playstyle (one like Brawl+ and one like BBrawl) and being "all-inclusive" and/or "pushing boundaries" in the sense that new characters are added, all limits are pushed, stuff like that. We could call it "Brugen". :V

 

[JCaesar]

I think that when we have some really good, balanced, polished PSA characters and a working clone engine, we should have a daughter project (Brawl++?) which would be separate from the tournament standard Brawl+. If there is overwhelming support for some of the new characters, then we could consider adding them to the official Brawl+ roster.

But this would be far in the future. I think we should focus on having the base cast be well-balanced first, and we're pretty far from that goal right now.

Keep in mind this is just my personal opinion, not that of the WBR.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I think the only reason you think that is because of the general sloppiness of the current clones. Lucario as Mewtwo? I'm sorry, it just doesn't work for me, but perhaps if the model was good.

Not exactly my point here. They could have a perfect model for Mewtwo and I'd still say we should wait.

If Brawl had DLC, would you be against new characters?

The other game I play competitively had DLC characters banned so yeah. Not gonna touch that.

It's too early to discuss that? Isn't a bit arbitrary to demand large decisions be made years later?

Now just isn't the time. Balancing the current roster is enough work for the WBR and they're not even done with that. But when B+ becomes a solid game with a few years of tourneys behind it with a long established metagame, to the point that a large part of the community actually WANTS something new, custom characters could be considered a valid solution. But for the time being, they belong in a side project, which should definitely exist since that would allow for information about balance that can only help making them more suitable for competitive play.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Threads like this I heard were shunned, closed, and infracted for discussing new characters in Brawl+. Though some of that's probably not true.

No. Won't happen. Unless someone in the WBR pulls a hamster and decides to secretly put a new character in, I don't see it happening UNTIL Gold is ready.

But if it's ever considered, models and their movesets must be judged, played continuously, and handed out to separate individuals by Beta Testing. How this would go, really we couldn't say. But for now, just continue with our current progress on Models in BrawlBox.

 

[MK26]

JCz, wouldnt it be Brawl#?

 

[[TSON]]

^LOL

But seriously guys. I thought what we were doing is making the game more appealing? I honestly am not going to lie, I have no backup for my want for some official support for new characters other than Wifi (>_>) being a bit easier, but this "Brugen" project wouldn't be nearly as big as Brawl+ and it'd take forever to find someone else that plays it.

At least bring in those who were cut between Melee and Brawl and leave it at that.

 

[stingers]

yeah exactly, nobody will play it if it's not standard and the effort will be wasted. we already have b+ and balance brawl, we can't just keep oversaturating the market with hacks upon hacks or people will just get fed up and nobody will play anything

 

[IndigoFenix]

The clone engine, even the current one, adds potential for an 'official' secondary player list. One reason so few people would play with a secondary player list is because it prevents them from playing online unless the other person has it. Add the clone engine, and you can just press a button if the other person has the clones, and play with the normal characters if they don't.

Although there are a lot of character hacks out there, the great majority are partially changed, overpowered, or just feel weird. The number that really feel like they could be official character material is so small that making an official secondary fighter list may be possible.

I might mention Mugen Brawl here...

 

[CloneHat]

There's Brawl+, and there's that Mugen Brawl.

TWO different options.

 

[[TSON]]

yeah exactly, nobody will play it if it's not standard and the effort will be wasted. we already have b+ and balance brawl, we can't just keep oversaturating the market with hacks upon hacks or people will just get fed up and nobody will play anything

this.

The clone engine, even the current one, adds potential for an 'official' secondary player list. One reason so few people would play with a secondary player list is because it prevents them from playing online unless the other person has it. Add the clone engine, and you can just press a button if the other person has the clones, and play with the normal characters if they don't.

Does the clone engine even work online? I don't think it does. The game would have no way to know that the other console wants it to load the other pac, would it?

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, but what if we got an assist trophy to work perfectly? And changing the common.pac that includes their character name in-game? And a CSS panel?

If done right, it could totally be tournament-viable.

 

[n88]

yeah exactly, nobody will play it if it's not standard and the effort will be wasted. we already have b+ and balance brawl, we can't just keep oversaturating the market with hacks upon hacks or people will just get fed up and nobody will play anything

I would. At any rate, I wouldn't call having three different major hacks "Oversaturating". Perhaps fewer people would play the newer hacks, but I sure as **** won't stop playing B+ if this forum is flooded with hacks.

There's already a MUGEN Brawl project, as well as that Super Smash Bros Clash thing that's looking for recruits. People are already setting out to load up the roster w/custom characters, whether the SBR approves them or not.

Also, where can you draw the line for including characters? There are only a few really good and near-complete ones now, but that number seems likely to exponentially increase. When there are hacks for seemingly every character ever in existence, which ones get in?

And this is all ignoring the fact that (So far as I know) every custom character has to replace another character. I'm sure that boundary will be broken eventually, if it didn't already happen while I wasn't looking, but it's still something to consider.

 

[Deleted member]

I know there's tons of threads for this and that there's already a Mugen idea rolling around, but that's not really what I'm looking for. I (humbly) want Mario vs Peach vs Waluigi, not mugen brawl.

 

[dessert fox5]

I know there's tons of threads for this and that there's already a Mugen idea rolling around, but that's not really what I'm looking for. I (humbly) want Mario vs Peach vs Waluigi, not mugen brawl.

But what if I want my Ridley/Samus/Tom Nook battle and want waluigi to stick to tennis? We all have different tastes. SSE stages I would ask to be implemented, but of all the PSA characters I have tried just didn't....feel it, I guess. Maybe they can get a non-clone out that does wonders. Then I'll go for it.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Overpowered/Cheap = First thing that pops in my mind when I hear MUGEN

 

[ph00tbag]

The problems with this abound no matter how you look at it. On the front of creating a separate project, you have the competition problem that's been brought up already. If you allow modded characters, but don't have any process for standardizing them, then you get chaos. If you make a democratic process for including mods, you please the most people you can, but the sheer size of the community bogs down the process. But you can't bureaucratize the process to speed it up, because the only logical conclusion of bureaucracy is a compromise that no one is happy with rather than a one sided option that some people are happy with. You could opt for something more totalitarian, but the fact is, not even the WBR has enough authority in the community to pull something like that.

Any option that involves adding new characters is doomed to failure, because there is no one in the Smash Community that has some divine power to know which characters belong in the game, and to dictate to anyone else who those characters are. The whole topic is way too divisive, and it best avoided on those grounds.

 

[[TSON]]

The problems with this abound no matter how you look at it. On the front of creating a separate project, you have the competition problem that's been brought up already. If you allow modded characters, but don't have any process for standardizing them, then you get chaos. If you make a democratic process for including mods, you please the most people you can, but the sheer size of the community bogs down the process. But you can't bureaucratize the process to speed it up, because the only logical conclusion of bureaucracy is a compromise that no one is happy with rather than a one sided option that some people are happy with. You could opt for something more totalitarian, but the fact is, not even the WBR has enough authority in the community to pull something like that.

Stop comparing this to government. We could be simple about it; HERE ARE YOUR GUIDELINES. FIRST 10 CHARACTERS THAT FIT THESE GUIDELINES WILL BE ACCEPTED.

 

[ph00tbag]

Stop comparing this to government. We could be simple about it; HERE ARE YOUR GUIDELINES. FIRST 10 CHARACTERS THAT FIT THESE GUIDELINES WILL BE ACCEPTED.

Assuming development of characters is allowed to continue indefinitely, the amount of defensible characters begins to exceed all existing limitations on space. There are thousands of characters that fit the existing criterion for Smash characters, and several that don't that have incredibly high demand. At some point, you have to have a cut-off, and to meet that cut-off, you need to have criteria to decide who gets in and who doesn't.

And who decides the first set of criteria in the first place? Do they just appear out of thin air? Does God appear to TheCape in a vision and give him a pair of stone tablets with the criteria inscribed? Or do we go the old fashioned route and let a group of people decide? And what about people whose ideas are immediately cast out by the first criteria? They're probably not too happy about that decision, are they? If they're good enough at hacking, they might as well go set up their own version that suits their feelings.

The fact is, we're talking about a community reaching decisions that affect the community. If you think government is not inherent in that process, then welcome to the real world. The neighborhood my parents live in has a democratically elected government, and there are only a couple hundred homes in the development. My high school student body had a democratically elected (figurehead) government. This ****ing forum has a hierarchical oligarchy, if you want to be really precise. The B+ community can't just be anarchy if there's to be any progress; there need to be people giving the project direction, and going in the direction of adding characters can only end in tears.

 

[[TSON]]

overthinking is bad.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

overthinking is bad.

^ That and a ROFL

 

[ph00tbag]

overthinking is bad.

You prefer underthinking?

 

[ph00tbag]

double post

 

[SmashChu]

Adding new characters is not an addition to Brawl+ but one to Brawl as a whole.

 

[smashbro29]

I'd like this, so long as only the REALLY good ones are used and well balanced.

 

[ChronicleX]

I'd like this, so long as only the REALLY good ones are used and well balanced.

Same. At the moment the only PSA I have seen that is worthy is Zero. I mean that PSA is a work of Art.

 

[Viquey]

So we have vBrawl, Brawl= (BBrawl), and Brawl+. And wasn't there one that wanted to make it 64-ish? So that could be Brawl- or Brawl64. So why not have Brawl/ (divided) and/or BrawlX (multiplied)? XD

Seriously though. Point is, offshoots of B+ and = with custom characters/stages/what-have-you would be just fine, I think. IMO arguments against it are weak, in that they seem to be pessimistic overthinking what-ifs and worst-case-scenarios. We won't know how it'll unfold until we try, you know? If those who want it are the ones to organize and do it, it wouldn't effect anyone who's against it/the rest of the WBR. Everyone's happy. What's the problem? >.>

This is quickly becoming a tired old argument ain't it. XD

 

[colored blind]

Same. At the moment the only PSA I have seen that is worthy is Zero. I mean that PSA is a work of Art.

But what if I want to keep the new characters Nintendo only?

Anything like this quickly becomes an annoying argument about who is 'qualified' to make it into an official set and what would be the requirements of such a character. Many of the WBR have expressed opinions that it won't even be considered until custom characters can reach the polish of official characters (CSPs, custom models, compatibility with all characters, balance, doesn't replace a character). So right now is probably still too soon to be thinking about that because there's not character who reaches that level yet.

Also, on a different note but still in response to your post, the Roy PSA is pretty polished, and Mewtwo will be looking a lot better once model hacking is available and animation hacking more flexible. Though, neither of those represent the pure ingenuity that Zero exemplifies.

Lol, I like the name BrawlX. BX. Though Brawl# wins just as many awesome points as Brawl^.

 

[JCaesar]

But what if I want to keep the new characters Nintendo only?

Zero first appeared on the SNES

 

[Slashy]

By forcing characters to have all necessary sound effects, you restrict the roster to about 19 characters.

 

[CT Chia]

Just letting everyone know that if the character doesn't already appear in Brawl somehow, it will never make it into + officially due to copyright issues, or at least that's my stance on it.

If the character somehow appears in Brawl (sticker, trophy, etc), then that means Nintendo likely has the copyright clearance for it. If we want Brawl+ to be as official as possible, we have to stay away from lawsuits. We don't need Capcom suing us if they start to see Zero or something in the game.

 

[Slashy]

I agree with ChiboSempai, though you forget that Capcom tends to prefer this kind of activity, they see it as free advertising.

 

[Shadic]

If the character somehow appears in Brawl (sticker, trophy, etc), then that means Nintendo likely has the copyright clearance for it. If we want Brawl+ to be as official as possible, we have to stay away from lawsuits. We don't need Capcom suing us if they start to see Zero or something in the game.

How? It should qualify as fair-use. There's no profit, and we're not taking any of their copyrighted files. You don't see Newgrounds getting sued for Flash videos.