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Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

kupo15

Smash Hero
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Playing Melee
Get used to it, people who complain about not being able to do something that they could do before should practice to do it with the new Auto-L cancel. It CAN'T change the double Uair THAT drastically...
Not to mention that the Uair is one of those moves programmed to have auto l cancel anyway...But I agree thats a lame excuse :p
 

BananaHammock

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 6, 2006
Messages
247
I don't see how auto l-cancel helps the competitive scene. Shouldn't we be adding things that make the game technical such as having to do our own l-cancels? In Melee/64 if you missed an l-cancel, it meant something. Auto l-cancel will make the game faster and allow for more combos but it won't do much to separate good players from bad. l-cancelling should be a skill, not a hand-out.
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
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1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
I don't see how auto l-cancel helps the competitive scene. Shouldn't we be adding things that make the game technical such as having to do our own l-cancels? In Melee/64 if you missed an l-cancel, it meant something. Auto l-cancel will make the game faster and allow for more combos but it won't do much to separate good players from bad. l-cancelling should be a skill, not a hand-out.
I tried to convey this point to them many times. They don't see it that way.
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
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USA-AL
I tried to convey this point to them many times. They don't see it that way.
I do see it that way... I would love to have manual l cancel to bad we dont have a good one. not only that its near impossible online to manual l cancel, but if someone could fix the one we have and make it more resonable I would definutly use it.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
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I do see it that way... I would love to have manual l cancel to bad we dont have a good one. not only that its near impossible online to manual l cancel, but if someone could fix the one we have and make it more resonable I would definutly use it.
And if the 75 moves in the game that are already programmed to have auto l cancel were taken away. Im not going to risk missing an l cancel when my opponent doesn't have that risk
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
With Auto L cancel on I can't do my combo's with Mario because it automatically L cancels my U airs when I don't want it too because I need that little bit of lag to stay in flow with my combo instead of guessing when to stop then go again. Really, it sucks. If I don't want my arieal canceled then I shouldn't have to have it canceled.

It throws all my combo's off and screws me over. I really don't see how that's useful.
Really? This is your complaint?

You're complaining that the lagless landing now means the timing for the combo isn't automatically done for you. You're complaining because the lagless landing means YOU now have to be in charge of the timing of the combo. And you're complaining because you can't time it properly. So you're complaining because you're too lazy to get the timing down and want the option of a lag landing so it can be done for you.

Seriously, learn timing. It's only the most important aspect of comboing.

Your combo requiring more timing means it now requires more skill to pull off. Why would you complain about that?

Anything a lag landing does for you can be achieved by simply waiting... timing...


I don't see how auto l-cancel helps the competitive scene. Shouldn't we be adding things that make the game technical such as having to do our own l-cancels? In Melee/64 if you missed an l-cancel, it meant something. Auto l-cancel will make the game faster and allow for more combos but it won't do much to separate good players from bad. l-cancelling should be a skill, not a hand-out.
I tried to convey this point to them many times. They don't see it that way.
Because we've already discussed numerous times how technical skill shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of Smash prowess. It's absolutely ridiculous to impose such a banal chore just so that we can "separate the community".
Why should we give a huge advantage to those with more dexterity?

Just look at SF2: HDR which was directed by Sirlin for competitive balance. Many moves were made easier to execute because the philosophy is that you shouldn't be focusing on the execution of the move, but instead on the use of the move and when to use it.

That's a competitive gaming philosophy, and it's the same philosophy used in using Auto L-cancel.
 

storm92

Smash Ace
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Feb 6, 2008
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844
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SoCal
I don't see how auto l-cancel helps the competitive scene. Shouldn't we be adding things that make the game technical such as having to do our own l-cancels? In Melee/64 if you missed an l-cancel, it meant something. Auto l-cancel will make the game faster and allow for more combos but it won't do much to separate good players from bad. l-cancelling should be a skill, not a hand-out.
The thing is, we've been over this so many times.
L-canceling may be a skill at first, when first learned, but once it is known it is simply a reflex, not a skill. You subconsciously see your char hitting the ground and L-cancel. We're simply taking that necessity away, because no matter what you say, the real skill comes in comboing. You can give a noob/scrub ALC and hitstun, but I can guarantee they won't be able to do anything or even close to as much as an average, competitive player.
The skill will be in comboing, DI'ing, and combo breaking in Brawl+, not measly a button press.
 

MBlaze

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I tried to convey this point to them many times. They don't see it that way.
Too many people are too lazy to do it.

And you all you others say "is that your excuse". Do any of you play Mario since 64 like me? No. Have you been playing him since Brawl came out and trying to do combos with him as your main? No. Do you guys go out and try it to see what I mean? No I think not, until you do I suggest you stfu. ;)
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Apr 27, 2006
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Have you been playing him since Brawl came out and trying to do combos with him as your main?
Umm... actually, I have and I know what I'm talking about. When I have someone over and my Wii is repaired, I'll play Brawl+ with them and see how Mario is. Until then, your complaint is void.
 

kupo15

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Its not that hard to adjust. You just have to move your fingers faster and I don't see how this would be a Mario specific "problem" either. Besides, 3 of your moves are already auto l canceled....
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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Mar 20, 2006
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
Too many people are too lazy to do it.

And you all you others say "is that your excuse". Do any of you play Mario since 64 like me? No. Have you been playing him since Brawl came out and trying to do combos with him as your main? No. Do you guys go out and try it to see what I mean? No I think not, until you do I suggest you stfu. ;)
You are by far the biggest whiner in this thread, and that's saying something. You whine about ALC because it takes away "skill" from the game. Then when you realize that you actually have to have good timing in your combos with it, you complain about that, saying that you should have the "option" of not l-canceling. If you don't know your character well enough to do a combo when you have less lag, I don't think you have any say in how we should be making brawl+. All your "argument" has done is show your own incompetence. You're just as bad as the nubs who argue that their low tier main is amazing and you "just have to know how to use them." I don't need to have used a character to know that if you can't do something with them that you were able to do when you had more lag on your moves that you don't know your character as well as you thought you did.
 

kupo15

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You are by far the biggest whiner in this thread, and that's saying something. You whine about ALC because it takes away "skill" from the game. Then when you realize that you actually have to have good timing in your combos with it, you complain about that, saying that you should have the "option" of not l-canceling. If you don't know your character well enough to do a combo when you have less lag, I don't think you have any say in how we should be making brawl+. All your "argument" has done is show your own incompetence. You're just as bad as the nubs who argue that their low tier main is amazing and you "just have to know how to use them." I don't need to have used a character to know that if you can't do something with them that you were able to do when you had more lag on your moves that you don't know your character as well as you thought you did.
**** QFT

Saying that more lag helps you combo better is completely.....@_@ and that is your reason why ALC is bad.

idk how you were able to combo with mario in 64...
 

BananaHammock

Smash Journeyman
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May 6, 2006
Messages
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I see how the execution of a move isn't as important as knowing how to use it, but here's something to consider. When a character hits a shield with an aerial it slows your descent, making it a little harder to time your l-cancel. In Melee it was common practice to light shield to make it even more difficult for an opponent to get their cancel timing right. Obviously, there's no light shield in Brawl, but the point still remains that l-cancelling isn't an absolute "got it everytime" kind of thing. I'm not saying we have manual l-cancels to split the community either. Fact is: most people who don't l-cancel play against other people who don't and vice versa (not everybody, but for a majority this is true). So it's not like it hurts the community. manual l-cancelling in Melee didn't hurt anyone.
 

Rebel581

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In Melee it was common practice to light shield to make it even more difficult for an opponent to get their cancel timing right.
Were you and I playing the same game? I don't remember anyone light shielding. I remember some people light shielding to avoid Peach's dsmash a very long time ago, but nothing about the l-cancel. The window for the cancel was large enough it wouldn't matter anyways.
 

kupo15

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So it's not like it hurts the community. manual l-cancelling in Melee didn't hurt anyone.
Your forgetting about two things:
1. No one planned for the opponent missing an l cancel. Everyone assumed you would cancel
2. All aerials had landing lag so you have to l cancel, in brawl, 75 moves are already programmed to have auto l canceling.

So it didn't make that much a difference in melee since it was more balanced as opposed to brawl where it plays favorites and not everyone has to l cancel some moves.
 

Kyd

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Warner Robins, GA
I say if it's so ba dfor ALC, find a way (without screwing something up) to give all ALC moves twice the landing lag so that Manual LC would be worth something....

Part of this project was to create more of a balance, if I realized I had to manually LC thats just more premise for me to go use MK or something.
 

BananaHammock

Smash Journeyman
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May 6, 2006
Messages
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Ok. I just thought of something...and I'm really not 100% sure if it even makes a difference but here it is anyway. When you do an aerial and input the l-cancel, that counts as an L button press (obviously) which means you can't tech walls/ceilings/floors within the next however many frames (I don't know the exact amount of time). So manual l-canceling also makes a difference in that regard. If you shffl a move at somebody and input the l-cancel but get outprioritized/clash/whatever you could potentially miss your opportunity to tech and get punished because of it. I know it doesn't happen a lot and I'm not sure if many people even actively think about it during play enough to say that this knowledge effects the way people play, but there it is.
 

Osi

Smash Ace
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I will always say WD should be included if it can be because of how much it adds to entry options, speed of gameplay, mindgames, and combo potential. I am totally open to ideas in the air... whether it be all attack options after airdodge or none at all. I'd like to accommodate everyone in the air if possible, but the idea of limiting the ground game where BAD has 0 positive effects is something I'm not behind.

This isn't an issue like where ALC vs manual will not change the game much, but instead separate people who do it better(either option in the game results in the same speed, combos, and entries when performed correctly). Taking WD out will completely remove some possible combos and speed from the game(not saying combos are gone or anything like that, just the set which use WD to connect moves). The only aspects that I could see leading to no WD is if a smaller code can not be made and if more recovery options like up B after MAD can not be enabled.
 

Heavyarms2050

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May 24, 2006
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Scroll up to where Leaf called me a nub and Kupo said "QFT", if they're really sure of my skill level, then they should have no problem taking me down.
sorry not trying to be a jerk, but if that is the case, then please leave the flame war in the PMs and not this thread. Last thing we need is to have this out of control and have the mods lock this tread
 

MBlaze

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sorry not trying to be a jerk, but if that is the case, then please leave the flame war in the PMs and not this thread. Last thing we need is to have this out of control and have the mods lock this tread
Your not, your being reasonable. As for Leaf and Kupo, come at me if you think I suck. ;)
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
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Messages
909
As for Leaf and Kupo, come at me if you think I suck. ;)
Simply put: LOL

Why? Because you're not helping your case.

The "I challenge you!" response is the scrubbiest response there is, plain and simple.

It's the "Oh no, you've beaten my logic! Let's duke it out instead then!" approach, and it speaks volumes about you, Marioblaze.

No one will take you seriously if that's your attitude toward debate.

Instead of bringing up counter points, you just shrug off their comments and challenge them, bringing nothing to the discussion whatsoever.

Chill out, take some time to review everything that's been said, then come back here with a thought out response instead. Otherwise, you're just digging a deeper hole, friend.
 

Starscream

Smash Ace
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Burnaby, BC
Ganon needs brawls buffer system kinda though with his follow ups to sideB

When I wavedash I got annoyed by it turning me around but then I realized it was my analog input, sometimes I use the turnaround to my advantage though it can be very useful.
C'mon, no character needs the buffer system, all it really does possibly make you do something unintended like crouching from a SHFLL or turn around upon landing while DIing a reverse neutral B backwards. I mean, I don't see why I should crouch if I input the fastfall and let go before I even hit the ground or even during the landing frames instead of the neutral standing position, I just think it's kind of ********. Anything that Ganon may be able to do with the buffer system helping you he'll be able to do without, it will just take slightly different timing and more precise inputs. Mehbeh I'm just crazy but I bet Sakurai put it in there to discourage SHFLLing.

And holy hell giant hit lag is annoying. Don't know why, it just bugs the hell out of me. Code for hitlag reduction plz.
 

MBlaze

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Simply put: LOL

Why? Because you're not helping your case.

The "I challenge you!" response is the scrubbiest response there is, plain and simple.

It's the "Oh no, you've beaten my logic! Let's duke it out instead then!" approach, and it speaks volumes about you, Marioblaze.

No one will take you seriously if that's your attitude toward debate.

Instead of bringing up counter points, you just shrug off their comments and challenge them, bringing nothing to the discussion whatsoever.

Chill out, take some time to review everything that's been said, then come back here with a thought out response instead. Otherwise, you're just digging a deeper hole, friend.
Well debating is boring and actions speak louder than words. You wanna face me too? I got no prob with this. Keep thinkin I'm a scrub and see where it will get you. ;)

And stop pen0r riding, this matter doesn't concern you.
 

MBlaze

Smash Champion
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we need more melee vets to test this stuff out some of you guys are hopless>.>

also, you should make a manual Lcancel code that keeps auto lcancel for those certain moves
I can get some people to play it while I'm at tourneys, they seem to be alright with the idea of Brawl+.
 

MBlaze

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thats good, if there were a Brawl+ community for vegas, id love to do some testing aswell, anyways, that modified Lcancel code?
Seems alright with me, I suppose now is a good time to stop trolling, lol as soon as you say something that more than 1 person dislikes you got a bunch of ppl on ya pecker. ;p

I'll be truthful, auto L cancel isn't all that big of a deal to me, it's just that auto anything is just really really gay to me. lol Your making something easier on yourself and others which really isn't needed. With Manual, you actually have to put some kind of effort into your cancel and it pressures you not to mess up. I mean, even pros have to make mistakes sometime, why should they go unpunished. And I hear everytime "Well character A doesn't have to L cancel but character B does! No fair!!! That character shouldn't have to do it either!!" Well you know what I say to that? Tough ****. My main doesn't have a glide, does that mean he should get one along with the others that don't have one to make it fair? No, I deal with it.

Also Kupo and Leaf, I'm still up to play you even though I was trolling and anyone else who wants some.

Falco: Don't try me!
 

Starscream

Smash Ace
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Oct 22, 2006
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Well don't you think a better game design decision would have been to design the game with low landing lag by default? Like why design the game to be slow and then make you press an extra button to get the outcome you're going to want every single ****ing time anyways? Why not just design the game to be fast in the first place?
 

MBlaze

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Well don't you think a better game design decision would have been to design the game with low landing lag by default? Like why design the game to be slow and then make you press an extra button to get the outcome you're going to want every single ****ing time anyways? Why not just design the game to be fast in the first place?
Because auto is for pansys. I don't see whats so **** hard about pressing a button really. We did it in 64 and Melee and dammit it should be in this one too. 3 keywords: Timing, effort and pressure. Think about it.
 

kupo15

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Marioblaze: Wifi proves nothing.

Because auto is for pansys. I don't see whats so **** hard about pressing a button really. We did it in 64 and Melee and dammit it should be in this one too. 3 keywords: Timing, effort and pressure. Think about it.
If auto is for pansies, dont play Mario. He has three auto l canceled moves.
 

MBlaze

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Marioblaze: Wifi proves nothing.
Like this already isn't known, but it givesa general idea if the connection is good.


Lol Kupo, that's the only good thing Mario has. When you were talking about auto cancelled moves I was thinking more of the lines of Samus and Mk, Mario still has a bit of lag he could be caught by.
 

kupo15

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No I was talking about everyone. Samus and peach have all 5, mk has 3 but acts like 5, mario has 3, lucario 1 Dk 1 ect...

Now Im confused. You said that auto is for pansies and its just stupid yet its ok and in fact good that mario has it. So why can't pika or pit or ganon have them? Biased much?
 

NinjaFoxX

Banned via Warnings
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Small hole, looks nice though~
Like this already isn't known, but it givesa general idea if the connection is good.


Lol Kupo, that's the only good thing Mario has. When you were talking about auto cancelled moves I was thinking more of the lines of Samus and Mk, Mario still has a bit he can be caught by.
only in japan


guys, get back on topic or this is gonna get closed. now, auto Lcancel lacks depth, therefore, manual.
 

MBlaze

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Copiague, New York
only in japan


guys, get back on topic or this is gonna get closed. now, auto Lcancel lacks depth, therefore, manual.
/debate...

And Kupo I said the only good thing Mario has (non laggy aerials). I'm still not saying everyone should have them automatically.

/discussion
 
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