BR Tourney Discussion

SheerMadness

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#82
No no, I meant that as in "if a majority of the backroom agrees". Given was probably a poor word choice.

I've actually already asked for permission to make a polling thread about the subject. Were just going to see if Surri can add a poll to this thread. If he doesn't want to I'll just make a new thread.

Sorry for the confusion.

:phone:
 
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#84
I'm pretty neutral about this. That's why I haven't taken a stance on this. I truly don't know which one would work better. I'm leaning towards Nintendude's side, though.

Anyone should feel free to try and convince me.
 

Mahie

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#85
Same as StarKing here. I kept reading but I have still to decide whose idea I prefer. I'd like to know more about the future TIO implementation of Elo and stuff before deciding.
 

SheerMadness

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#86
K, to sum it up:

AiB pros:

- Automated rating/ranking system. Ratings and rankings are updated immediately after each player inputs match results. No waiting days or weeks for a single person who maintains the rankings to input and update match results and rating/rankings.

- It's a proven ladder/rating system. We know what were getting, there's no unknowns. With nintendude's system we don't know what were going to get or when were getting it. If ever.

- It's already customized for an online smash community (brawl), where Nintendude is making his system for a melee community that doesn't even have online play availability.

- It would be very easy to use their rating system in tourneys. All players would have to do is challenge each other via the ladder chat on AiB.

- We have AiB's main programmer (nealdt) who has made it clear he's willing to work with us to customize the ladder/ranking system to best fit our community.


Those are my main points. I stress the fact that Nintendude's system is basically just an idea at this point. An idea that wasn't even intended for ssb64. I don't know about anyone else but a system that doesn't even exist yet and wasn't intended for the ssb64 community does not sound like a good fit at this point, to me.

The only example we have of Nintendude's system right now is the beta program, which isn't very impressive at all. I'd suggest everyone download it to see what it's like if you have any doubts about AiB in comparison.

No offense at all to Nintendude, he's a good guy and he's just trying to help the melee community out. But I would be dumbfounded if anyone in the ssb64 community chose to wait for a non existent idea to materialize over a proven online smash ladder/rating system. If his system ever comes out we can certainly give it a try, but until it does there's really no comparison here.
 

SheerMadness

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#88
Looks like people have already started an AiB revival...

We need to make a movement on this and sponsor it.

Mahie has played a couple matches. What are you thoughts on it now?
 

Mahie

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#90
The rules displayed on AiB are old and should be replaced by the latest ruleset. Other than that the system looks good, although having to imput a Brawl code to play 64 is kind of dumb. Having to use their chat system shouldn't be mandatory either.
 

SheerMadness

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#91
Lol funny how that works eh?
No idea what that is supposed to mean...

Mahie, rules can be changed easily. The ladder requiring a brawl code is pretty dumb, I'm sure we can get nealdt to remove that. But the chat is needed, it's the only place to report matches as far as I know.

I'm going to make a polling thread soon.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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#92
The rules displayed on AiB are old and should be replaced by the latest ruleset. Other than that the system looks good, although having to imput a Brawl code to play 64 is kind of dumb. Having to use their chat system shouldn't be mandatory either.
I can message him to replace the ruleset with the newest one. I haven't yet as people didn't want to use this ladder so I saw no point.
 

Mahie

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#95
How is the program development advancing? And what's going on on that subject in the Melee BR? I'm not sure whether you're allowed to talk about it or not.
 
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#97
How is the program development advancing? And what's going on on that subject in the Melee BR? I'm not sure whether you're allowed to talk about it or not.
We've added 2 programmers to the MBR Project Room who will begin formal development shortly. In the meantime people are discussing the policy issues regarding the system (how it should be regulated, guidelines for rated events, etc.). The Elo system is currently a top priority MBR project.

We don't have to wait for this to finish though. We already have sufficient tools for our purposes (see people's test runs in the thread).
 
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#98
So I had a discussion with Surri last night about the plan for BR competitive events. We've decided that we want to hold round robin tournaments in order to maximize the number of matches played. BR tournaments can start as two pools of 4. Then the top-2 in each pool advance to a final pool of 4. In order to give additional incentive for winning the whole thing, LoS will apparently be using the results of the BR tournaments to seed their own events. LoS will comply with BR guidelines for ratings so that their events can be rated too.

We can start as soon as Surri's current ranked tournament is complete. We can just use his list of ratings to start off with. If adjustments are later made to the rating formula, it really isn't a big deal. They wouldn't result in any drastic changes to what people's ratings should be under new guidelines, and if there are problems, the system will quickly sort itself out.
 

SheerMadness

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#99
I'd support round robin tourneys. They'd be fun. But it would have to be live.

Can you imagine how long a round robin tourney would take if we were to do it traditional style via smashboards?
 
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I actually thought the same thing, but if you had all the round robin matches going on all at once (you'd essentially have 3 matches on the go at once) it should be pretty easy to run into the active players. The only issue comes if someone goes inactive, but that's the story of smash64 lol

You'll spend more of your kaillera time in competitive event matches..which is something i consider a good thing.
 
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Eh, I agree with Sheer. Especially if there's only two pools of four. It shouldn't be hard to gather 8 people for a live tournament.
 
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I'd support round robin tourneys. They'd be fun. But it would have to be live.

Can you imagine how long a round robin tourney would take if we were to do it traditional style via smashboards?
I'm up for live events if people think they can work. The only thing is that if someone has to leave in the middle, they have to forfeit the rest of the matches, damaging their rating and inflating other peoples' ratings. That's common in a rated online game though so whatever.

I don't think that a round robin tournament would take much longer than a bracket tournament. Let's say my first pool had Sheer, Nova, and Snake, and my second pool had Sheer, JaimeHR, and Star King. The time it takes to find and play Sheer, Nova, and Snake would be approximately equal to the time it would take me to play only Snake, because during the time I spend trying to find him, I can easily find Sheer and Nova. For the second pool, it would be the same thing but with Jaime as the limiting factor.

Now, compare this to a regular 8-person bracket. Let's say I beat Nova, beat Surri, then lost to Jaime, and in losers I beat A$, and lost to Jaime in grand finals. That's 5 rounds of having to find a specific person, and if any of those are slow, it holds up the entire bracket. I also can't play other matches while waiting for my slow opponent to show up. So, if this is faster than a round robin tournament, I think it would be almost negligible, yet overall way less matches are played. I have a hunch that brackets are potentially slower than small round robins, especially because there's always hold ups waiting for a whole branch of the bracket to get played.

Does that make sense? Of course, you could end up with fail pools full of players that don't play their matches, but seeding by rating would hopefully separate the inactive players out since presumably they wouldn't be rated as highly.
 
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Yeah, we shouldn't fully switch. The main purpose is to get more matches played. Otherwise it'll take forever for ratings to settle when everyone starts at 1000 or whatever. Besides, LoS and other groups will be holding bracket tournaments anyway.
 

Nintendude

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Any progress with that, Surri? Also, people are discussing an A-tier round robin to try and order those players. I think we should make this a ranked event. We could have some B-tier ones too, if there's interest.
 

Surri-Sama

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Here is ranked tourney data, brackets is win:loss ratio.

1. JaimeHR - 1257 (8-0)
2. Surri-Sama - 1219 (7-4)
3. thekuzinator - 1207 (3-2)
3. Korobeniki - 1207 (2-2)
5. Battlecow - 1206 (2-2)
6 Nova - 1200 (2-2)
7. Snake - 1195 (3-4)
8. Oblio - 1193 (1-2)
9. ImNotPro - 1192 (2-2)
9. Abs - 1192 (1-2)
11. Felipe_9595 - 1184 (0-2)
11. GlowWorm - 1184 (0-2)
11. Lion - 1184 (0-2)
11. Gowa - 1184 (0-2)
11. Boles - 1184 (0-2)

I think the BR should stay away from any player tier list threads. The majority of ranking will be accounted to peoples opinions anyways. We already have tourneys that people ignore the results from when giving their opinions on people.
 

Nintendude

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I was just thinking it would be a way to get people more interested or excited about it. If you don't think we should then let's get our round robin tournament running instead.

btw, how is it that every 0-2 player has the same rating? Is that because they both lost to opponents rated 1200 and you updated as if every match occurred at the same time?

In the MBR we have been discussing the order of processing matches. As of now, pool matches will be updated simultaneously and bracket matches will be updated sequentially.
 

Surri-Sama

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yeah, they either played the same level foes, or foes that where close enough not to make a difference.

One of the errors i think i may have made was using 16 K-factor for this, it's a really slow progress and should be used after a higher point then 1200 lol. Because of this the variance in rating is lower.
 
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