BR Tourney Discussion

Surri-Sama

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#1
Alright so our tourneys where suppose to start in February...but this obviously did not happen, how ever, they will be happening soon enough!

Now tourneys have always been kinda awkward for our community. Most of the time they do not finish and if they do it's only because DQs where given out to reduce the number of people playing and push ahead the few who are really active.

I've been working on an idea for some time now...as a means to increase the tourney scene.

My idea is to offer Cash tourneys online. But not in a completely direct way.

What i was thinking is I will host “LoS” only tourneys with the top three placed receiving a small cash prize.

Firstly let me explain WHY I think using LoS only tourneys works better for cash games.

1.Less chance of the major three joining (Malva, Boom and JaimeHR) thus making it easier and reasonable for them to try and actually reach 3rd place.
2.Easier contact
3.Personal issues. (with people like nova pulling crap like lying about matches I see it being far better to have a more specific group playing for money then just everyone)

Now to the actual purpose of this thread, the BR tourney WOULD accept everyone. With that in mind I want to use cash games to help draw a crowd to our BR tourneys...in order to do that i was thinking offer a “lottery draw” for entry into the “LoS” tourneys. Each win within the BR tourney could count as 1 draw...thus the more you win the better your chances are...but even if your eliminated in the first round ...you can still get in!

This will allow people who have no interest in joining LoS to still have a chance at cash games, as well as (hopefully) it'll draw more people to play and actually get better!

These are just thought I've been pondering over...i want to hear what you guys have to think!
 

SheerMadness

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#2
BR tourneys would be cool. There are problems though:

Asianaussie would get like 300 ping with all of us on p2p. Ballin4life doesn't play online much i think? Dandan and King Funk would be high ping with most of us.

I know some people very much dislike high frame matches which would be tough considering there are multiple continents included in the backroom.
 
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#4
Ok I had no idea what "LoS" was but I figured out that it's a clan.

Anyway I think the idea is fine. Also I just got a new laptop ... will try to get online play working when I get a chance so I can play more often.
 
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#7
I'm not too hot on the idea of online tournaments for cash. The issue is that when money is on the line, there can be a lot of drama when it comes to stuff like lag, desynchs, and delay. When these tourneys are just for fun, those kinds of issues aren't a big deal. I also don't necessarily agree with using clan membership as means of weeding out the "major 3." Since when do tournaments try to deter top players from participating? That's a natural part of competition. It would also seem to promote BR favoritism towards a particular clan and I think that we should be neutral towards all clans.

I'd definitely be in favor of replacing the current ladder with an Elo ladder that incorporates results from BR tournaments and other "approved" matches. It would address this whole "player tier list" issue that a lot of people get so worked up about. A few days ago I suggested stuff like BR-run round robins to ensure the integrity of the matches. Do people like that or prefer something else?

What's unfortunate is that the infrastructure to manage this kind of thing easily is kind of lacking. If only Smashboards had a matchmaking system / ladder like AiB has...
 
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#8
The issue is that when money is on the line, there can be a lot of drama when it comes to stuff like lag, desynchs, and delay. When these tourneys are just for fun, those kinds of issues aren't a big deal.
This is true. The "weeding out" (as you put it) would help this but not prevent it.

I also don't necessarily agree with using clan membership as means of weeding out the "major 3." Since when do tournaments try to deter top players from participating? That's a natural part of competition.
It maybe in a new game but for this one i honestly feel offering a cash incentive to a broader range of players is at least some initiative towards trying to get this games growth going upwards. You are definitely right in what you say I'm just looking for a means to expand this game as it currently is.

It would also seem to promote BR favoritism towards a particular clan and I think that we should be neutral towards all clans.
If it's a clan thats dedicated to working towards to overall growth of the competitive community I dont really see the problem. And it would only be a very slight tie anyways because the BR tourneys would run on their own but offer a lottery draw as an extra prize to those who join (not only those who win). LoS tourneys would be separate events altogether

I'd definitely be in favor of replacing the current ladder with an Elo ladder that incorporates results from BR tournaments and other "approved" matches. It would address this whole "player tier list" issue that a lot of people get so worked up about. A few days ago I suggested stuff like BR-run round robins to ensure the integrity of the matches. Do people like that or prefer something else?
I dont think you'd need to replace the current ladder for that reason because the current Ladder is an event with a typically "ladder" style set-up. I'm sure though if we wanted to introduce "BR approved" tourneys (only applicable to tourneys who use the exact BR rule set) and then start keeping track of the results with ELO perhaps that would also work?

What's unfortunate is that the infrastructure to manage this kind of thing easily is kind of lacking. If only Smashboards had a matchmaking system / ladder like AiB has...
Agreed but This is one thing i really cannot do much about :(
 
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#9
If it's a clan thats dedicated to working towards to overall growth of the competitive community I dont really see the problem. And it would only be a very slight tie anyways because the BR tourneys would run on their own but offer a lottery draw as an extra prize to those who join (not only those who win). LoS tourneys would be separate events altogether
I think that the LoS tourneys should have little affiliation with BR tourneys (ignoring the fact that you are in both groups) and that the BR should simply "approve" the LoS events. Rather than the BR organizers saying that people get such and such points towards LoS events, I think it should be the LoS organizers saying that they'll use BR tournament results to hand out points. It's a very subtle difference and I think we're mostly in agreement here anyway.

I dont think you'd need to replace the current ladder for that reason because the current Ladder is an event with a typically "ladder" style set-up. I'm sure though if we wanted to introduce "BR approved" tourneys (only applicable to tourneys who use the exact BR rule set) and then start keeping track of the results with ELO perhaps that would also work?
Upon further consideration I think both ladders can co-exist just fine, as you said. I think that the ladder can become an example of an approved BR event and that matches on that ladder will also count towards the BR ladder.

Basically what I'm going for in all of this is to increase the legitimacy of the BR. A lot of people view the BR as a joke that doesn't actually do anything for the community, and having the BR sort of "take over" the online competitive community can not only change that, but improve the online competitive experience drastically.
 
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#10
I think that the LoS tourneys should have little affiliation with BR tourneys (ignoring the fact that you are in both groups) and that the BR should simply "approve" the LoS events. Rather than the BR organizers saying that people get such and such points towards LoS events, I think it should be the LoS organizers saying that they'll use BR tournament results to hand out points. It's a very subtle difference and I think we're mostly in agreement here anyway.
This would be fine with me, I'm honestly just trying to use both to promote the growth of smash64 and I can see why you'd want it to come from LoS rather than the BR it self.

Just a note too everything done regarding LoS passes through majority vote...I'm by no means in charge of anything.


Basically what I'm going for in all of this is to increase the legitimacy of the BR. A lot of people view the BR as a joke that doesn't actually do anything for the community, and having the BR sort of "take over" the online competitive community can not only change that, but improve the online competitive experience drastically.
I want this very much as well and will do what ever i can to get it!
 

Mahie

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#11
I really like the whole ELO idea. And as much as I'd like it to be worldwide, I think we should make it into three zones, Australia, Europe, and North America, and that each zone should have a whole month to do its tournament, then it's the next zone, and so on.

Month 1 : Australia

Month 2 : Europe

Month 3 : North America

Month 4 : Australia

That way videos will keep flowing in and keep everyone entertained, without the feeling that there are too many tournaments like that.
 
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#12
I would really like to stray a little from the tournaments and focus more on events that take place in a short period of time (such as a small round robin or even just individual matches). If there's no means of quickly getting a lot of matches played it'll take forever for the ratings to establish themselves. We can still do tournaments but we should have quicker events concurrently. I also think that, when it comes to stuff that isn't a bracket, just establish a minimum ping or delay for the match to be eligible to be rated.
 
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#13
australia just had an irl console meet at a major, decent 64 turnout (in terms of competitive players, we had like 20 entrants but more than half were melee/brawl)

videos will probably go up since there was a recording setup, dunno how much was actually recorded
 

Mahie

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#14
I would really like to stray a little from the tournaments and focus more on events that take place in a short period of time (such as a small round robin or even just individual matches). If there's no means of quickly getting a lot of matches played it'll take forever for the ratings to establish themselves. We can still do tournaments but we should have quicker events concurrently. I also think that, when it comes to stuff that isn't a bracket, just establish a minimum ping or delay for the match to be eligible to be rated.
Well you could still use the time schedule I gave above, and when the region doesn't have a tourney, they can just do round robins and stuff.
 

SilentSlayers

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#15
I would really like to stray a little from the tournaments and focus more on events that take place in a short period of time (such as a small round robin or even just individual matches). If there's no means of quickly getting a lot of matches played it'll take forever for the ratings to establish themselves. We can still do tournaments but we should have quicker events concurrently. I also think that, when it comes to stuff that isn't a bracket, just establish a minimum ping or delay for the match to be eligible to be rated.
I agree with this to be honest. It all sounds like good stuff though.
 
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#17
Since no one is Really very far into the ranks yet i just used 16 for everyone, for members higher then 1800 i planned to switch to 10.

And international groups might work but it's like Nintendude said It really doesn't seem like it'll function. We have a hard time keeping up with legitimate rankings in N.A, but honestly the Euro community could probably pull it off.
 

th3kuzinator

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#18
I really like the small bracket/round robin idea where all the matches are played out in one sitting.

Agreed w/ nintendude wrt most of his points about a LoS tournament.
 

SheerMadness

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#20
allisbrawl.com has/had a great ladder/ranking system IMO. Not sure if it's still there but it was for a long time.

The problem was people lost interest and activity eventually completely stopped, like every other ssb64 to ladder/ranking system to have ever existed.

We should just go back to using allisbrawl's.
 
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#21
allisbrawl.com has/had a great ladder/ranking system IMO. Not sure if it's still there but it was for a long time.

The problem was people lost interest and activity eventually completely stopped, like every other ssb64 to ladder/ranking system to have ever existed.

We should just go back to using allisbrawl's.
Actually we stopped using allisbrawl because people like PD would abuse the system.


Agreed w/ nintendude wrt most of his points about a LoS tournament.
So you agree it's resolved and there are no problems? Not sure exactly why you'd say this after me and nintendude say we are on a common ground with the LoS tourney and set-up
 
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#22
I thought the problem with AiB was that you had to get people to play matches in their chat server. It works for Brawl because a huge Brawl fanbase uses that website, but almost no SSB64 players do.
 
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#23
Well all I remember is PD would avoid playing every good player and buffed his ranks by playing tons of lower ranked players.

I suppose in reality it was ALL these things that contributed to us not using AiB any more.

There was a consistent group that used to go there but then everyone gave it up.
 

SheerMadness

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#24
Actually we stopped using allisbrawl because people like PD would abuse the system.
What PD did was not at all abusing the system. First of all anyone else could have done the same thing. Second, if you play higher ranked players and beat them you gain double, triple, and even more points than that sometimes.

It was not a flawed system. And allisbrawl also has the capability to host live round robin events/tourneys using their chat. I seriously doubt there is a better option outside of allisbrawl. It's the best ladder/ranking/tourney I've seen in my online ssb64 lifetime (2005).
 
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#25
Personally, I got bored with facing the same few people over and over (any newcomers I just trashed so it wasn't fun) and I wasn't a fan of rating decay forcing me to keep playing to maintain my rating. There's nothing particularly wrong with facing the same person over and over since that'll only get you so far, and round robins and brackets will prevent people from avoiding certain opponents.
 
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#26
You're both right theres nothing technically wrong but it kills the spirit of competition which thus causes interest to die...at least for me.

The ranks get skewed improperly either way so even if it's not "abuse" it doesn't show accurately who's ranked where.
 

SilentSlayers

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#27
Other then giving my opinion, I can't really help much with this. I know basic python programming as I take it in school, but besides that, tracking ELO and stuff is something I would not know how to do. It does sound pretty cool though. Interesting discussion.
 

SheerMadness

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#28
Personally, I got bored with facing the same few people over and over (any newcomers I just trashed so it wasn't fun) and I wasn't a fan of rating decay forcing me to keep playing to maintain my rating.
Lack of activity was absolutely no fault to the allisbrawl system. They're a brawl community that was simply trying to help us out. It's our communities fault we couldn't garner enough activity to keep it alive, like every other ladder we try.

IMO we should give allisbrawl a try again. This time the ladder can be "backroom" sponsored and we'll advertise it much better on smashboards and kaillera.

There's absolutely no point in continusously trying to create new ladders when the main fail point is ALWAYS lack of activity.
 
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#29
So I was just talking to Surri about trying to get a really simple system developed for us by someone on SWF. All you need is a spreadsheet with columns for name, rating, W/L record, and win %. It sorts automatically by rating. Then there's a password protected section for us where we can just select 2 players, say who won, and click OK. It'll update by itself.

I don't know enough web programming to develop this but for someone who does this should be really easy to do.

Sheer, an issue with the AiB ladder is you can't add extra matches. Only matches played through the matchmaking system count towards the ladder, so it would be impossible to do tournaments and round robins and have them count towards your rating. I'm also not a fan of rating decay. People shouldn't be forced to play to maintain their rating.
 

SheerMadness

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#30
Why couldn't tourney matches count towards ranking? You simply have the 2 opponents challenge each other via the allisbrawl site each round.

Also I agree the decay system is somewhat dumb. But it's really not that big of a deal IMO. It didn't subtract a huge amount from inactivity. Plus we could always ask them to modify it for the ssb64 ladder.
 
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#31
There's always the issue of people going "oh we agreed we didn't want our match to be rated so we didn't use AIB." Or people not wanting to get AIB accounts. There's nothing we can actually do about that besides DQ them or something.

I think it's also worth mentioning that when I envision ratings, I don't necessarily envision rankings. Like in chess you are rated, not ranked. There's a subtle difference that's kind of hard for me to explain. The point is to give a measure of relative skill, not absolute skill, that can be used to seed tournaments and stuff. By the way, I think it would be cool to require seeding by rating in order to be a BR-approved event. It would encourage people to participate in more events to boost their rating.
 

SheerMadness

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#32
Well the tourney could take place live (like you suggested) on teh AiB chat. That way if they weren't on the chat to challenge other people they wouldn't be able to participate. And it takes live 5 seconds to make an AiB account.

I understand what you mean by ranking/ratings. AiB has both. They just use the rating to rank people also.

Again I vote that we give AiB a try again. It's already made and it's a proven system.
 
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#33
It's already made and it's a proven system.
Like i said you wont be able to keep interest in it though because of the reasons already laid out.

Technically the system is good but it doesn't fit our community. Plus im not sure exactly how far we could really advertise AiB on SWF...not sure about the technicalities of that.

Another problem is the AiB ladder was international causing huge delay issues.
 

SheerMadness

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#34
These are all issues we already deal with. Every tourney we have to decide whether or not we let international players participate. Wouldn't be any different in AiB tourneys. As for the ladder if you don't like huge delay simply don't challenge/accept challenges from international players...

I don't see why the system isn't a good fit for our community. But that's just my opinion.
 
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#35
The system would be good if it was directly tied to smashboards or kaillera, but the fact that it isn't really is a big problem. I guarantee that even if it did catch on initially, it would soon fade out and people would get bored or simply not feel like visiting the site's chatroom. Then the big issue there is rating decay. At least if we used Elo and people stopped playing, their rating would be preserved.
 
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#36
These are all issues we already deal with. Every tourney we have to decide whether or not we let international players participate. Wouldn't be any different in AiB tourneys. As for the ladder if you don't like huge delay simply don't challenge/accept challenges from international players...

I don't see why the system isn't a good fit for our community. But that's just my opinion.
Allowing international people to play specific people within the ladder and not others botches the "true" results. And thats what we are trying to do here is provide a truly accurate system of ranking.

The reason it isn't a good fit is because we already have a general idea of whos where in terms of skill, but we dont have any REAL idea of whos exactly where. A system that allows free style challenging to international players isn't going to do that.
 

Mahie

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#37
Allowing international people to play specific people within the ladder and not others botches the "true" results. And thats what we are trying to do here is provide a truly accurate system of ranking.

The reason it isn't a good fit is because we already have a general idea of whos where in terms of skill, but we dont have any REAL idea of whos exactly where. A system that allows free style challenging to international players isn't going to do that.
I don't really understand how challenging international players changes anything. Is it because some players will have more people to beat ?
ie. a player from California keeps 5 stocking someone from N.Y.C. who keeps beating two different european players, thus the ranking being
1. N.Y.C. Guy
2. California guy
3. European guy 1&2

Because other than that, I don't see what the problem is, as you can, like Nintendude suggested, allow only matches under a set delay to be ranked and not the others.
 
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#38
Well with ELO, if one person has more players to play it's generally easier for them to go up in the ranks vs someone who has lesser people to play. The choice then becomes if you wanna play in the delay vs someone in order to keep your rank.
 

SheerMadness

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#39
I guarantee that even if it did catch on initially, it would soon fade out and people would get bored or simply not feel like visiting the site's chatroom.
Just like every other ssb64 ladder/rating/ranking system that has ever existed?

Generating enough interest and most importantly keeping interest is the main point we need to be focusing on involving ladders. We've already tried 100 different variations of ladders of the past 5-6 years. They all die the exact same way.

Until we solve that problem first there is no point in creating another ladder/rating system.
 
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#40
There's some fundamental differences here though. The BR can pump a lot more enthusiasm and effort into a project than past efforts, we are using results from tournaments, and people are playing to improve their rating to improve their seeding in tournaments.

Let's just ignore player participation for a minute and consider how much of a step forward that last point is. Seeding based on bias and opinions can finally be thrown out the window. There can now be a defendable basis for seeding, and if players are unhappy with their seeds, they can take the matter into their own hands. If I'm inducted into the MBR I will be pushing for a very similar system, just fyi. It's such an important issue to address.
 
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