Bowser's Stage Game

[Flayl]

Matchup discussions are either going very slowly or nowhere, so I thought it would be a good idea to take the easiest part out of the way first: Stages.

[collapse=All of these recommendations are based on the following stagelist (BBR-RC's stage list with 5 starters)]

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Counterpicks:
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
Picto Chat
Rainbow Cruise​

[/collapse]
That being said, I'm going to give my thoughts and edit accordingly. I won't be giving details on why you should pick/strike/ban/expect a stage on the first post. Discussions will be quoted and summarized on the second post.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Plaza
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd, Castle Siege


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Pictochat/Smashville
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, Pokémon Stadium 2/Lylat Cruise/Battlefield


STRIKE: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Battlefield/Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)/Pictochat
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Castle Siege


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination,
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, Castle Siege/Lylat Cruise


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Battleship Halberd
COUNTERPICK: Delfino Plaza, Lylat Cruise


STRIKE: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar/Battleship Halberd
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination


STRIKE: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Delfino Plaza, Battleship Halberd
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Castle Siege


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Smashville
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise?


STRIKE: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar, Delfino Plaza
COUNTERPICK: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Final Destination


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd,


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination/Castle Siege
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, Battlefield?


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Pictochat
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Castle Siege


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Battleship Halberd, Final Destination
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, Castle Siege


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination,
COUNTERPICK: Delfino Plaza, Lylat Cruise


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: Pokémon Stadium 1,
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination,


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Battleship Halberd,
COUNTERPICK:


STRIKE: Final Destination,
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise,
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar,


STRIKE: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar/Frigate Orpheon
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Smashville/Castle Siege


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd, Final Destination


STRIKE: Battlefield, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar, Delfino Plaza
COUNTERPICK: Yoshi's Island (Brawl),


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar/Delfino Plaza/Castle Siege
COUNTERPICK: Rainbow Cruise,


STRIKE: Final Destination, Battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege,


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise/Final Destination
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)?


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege, Battlefield


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Smashville
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Castle Siege/Brinstar


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Frigate Orpheon
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield, Brinstar?


STRIKE: Final Destination, Battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Battlefield
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege, Yoshi's Island


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Battleship Halberd, Lylat Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Pokémon Stadium 2, Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Pictochat, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, Battlefield/Pokémon Stadium 1


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville/Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise/Castle Siege


STRIKE: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd, Smashville/Pictochat


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination,
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield,


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza/Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield/Brinstar


STRIKE: Final Destination, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Delfino Plaza
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise,
COUNTERPICK:

 

[Flayl]

Discussions:

[collapse=Ganondorf]

A couple of things Phiddlesticks:

Norfair and Japes aren't on the list, but I suppose I could make a side comment for when they're useful

I don't mind Ganon taking me to Battlefield either, but you lose aerial release chaingrabs. They're too good to pass up against Ganondorf

[/collapse]

[collapse=Jungle Japes]BAN AGAINST: Donkey Kong, Falco, Peach
PICK AGAINST: Luigi, Olimar, Samus, Zero Suit Samus[/collapse]

[collapse=Norfair]BAN AGAINST: Ganondorf
PICK AGAINST: Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, King Dedede[/collapse]

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Matchup discussions are either going very slowly or nowhere, so I thought it would be a good idea to take the easiest part out of the way first: Stages.

[collapse=All of these recommendations are based on the following stagelist (BBR-RC's stage list with 5 starters)]

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Counterpicks:
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
Picto Chat
Rainbow Cruise​

[/collapse]
That being said, I'm going to give my thoughts and edit accordingly. I won't be giving details on why you should pick/strike/ban/expect a stage on the first post. Discussions will be quoted and summarized on the second post.


STRIKE: yoshis?? and fd
BAN AND EXPECT: i personally dont like delfino, probably would expect a neutral with platforms
COUNTERPICK: halberd


STRIKE: final d and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, get taken to pictochat/smashville
COUNTERPICK: norfair all day, or lylat/brinstar


STRIKE: yoshis and smashville B)
BAN AND EXPECT: ban japes/brinstar, get taken to yoshis??
COUNTERPICK: final d??


STRIKE: fd/smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban japes, expect fd
COUNTERPICK: norfair/brinstar/lylat


STRIKE: fd/smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect halberd sounds right
COUNTERPICK: dat lylat


STRIKE: lylat, battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: ban rainbow, expect brinstar
COUNTERPICK: fd (exact same as what you said)


STRIKE: lylat, smashville (i dont mind battlefield)
BAN AND EXPECT: ban norfair/brinstar?? (dunno), expect halberd or something
COUNTERPICK: fd, maybe castle siege, pkmn stadium 2


STRIKE: fd/smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect smashville
COUNTERPICK: brinstar/norfair


STRIKE: battlefield, smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban pkmn stadium 1? brinstar? I HAVE NO IDEA
COUNTERPICK: fd, yoshis maybe


STRIKE: fd and yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: ban rainbow, expect brinstar/japes? I HAVE NO IDEA
COUNTERPICK: fd, halberd


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect castle siege/delfino/smashville (run away during the walkoff parts)
COUNTERPICK: norfair/brinstar


STRIKE: lylat/yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: ban rainbow/pictochat, expect rainbow/pictochat
COUNTERPICK: fd??


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect norfair??
COUNTERPICK: I HAVE NO IDEA so im just gonna say castle siege


STRIKE: fd and yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect something
COUNTERPICK: lylat i guess


STRIKE: lylat and yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: im gonna say ban pkmn stadium 1 just because i dont like the stage, expect something that isnt pkmn stadium 1
COUNTERPICK: fd


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban halberd??, expect fd...?
COUNTERPICK: JUNGLE JAPES


STRIKE: i dunno man this ****'s unwinnable
BAN AND EXPECT:
COUNTERPICK:


STRIKE: lylat and battlefield/yoshis (personally i strike battlefield)
BAN AND EXPECT: ban rainbow/brinstar/frigate/delfino/lylat, expect rainbow/brinstar/frigate/delfino/lylat
COUNTERPICK: fd, smashville, MAYBE halberd


STRIKE: lylat and battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: ban rainbow, expect lylat/battlefield
COUNTERPICK: i like fd/halberd personally


STRIKE: smashville/battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: ban brinstar, expect delfino?
COUNTERPICK: yoshis


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban brinstar/norfair/castle siege/delfino, expect brinstar/norfair/castle siege/delfino
COUNTERPICK: rainbow cruise


STRIKE: fd and battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: ban japes, expect ?????
COUNTERPICK: CASTLE SIEGE


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban rainbow??, expect fd??
COUNTERPICK: battlefield or something


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect rainbow cruise or something probably
COUNTERPICK: id probably wanna try castle siege (just beware of walkoffs at low percents), but other than that id just go battlefield i guess


STRIKE: lylat and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban smashville (B)), expect ???
COUNTERPICK: somewhere flat, either fd or battlefield


STRIKE: fd and yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect rainbow/castle siege probably
COUNTERPICK: battlefield


STRIKE: fd and yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect either battlefield or somewhere big
COUNTERPICK: JUNGLE JAPES or if that isnt legal, lylat??


STRIKE: lylat and fd
BAN AND EXPECT: ban lylat (i just hate this stage against snake lol), expect halberd/frigate/brinstar/norfair/whatever (i honestly prefer halberd over lylat)
COUNTERPICK: POKEMON STADIUM 2 or rainbow cruise


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban pictochat, expect fd
COUNTERPICK: battlefield or lylat


STRIKE: fd and yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect somewhere big
COUNTERPICK: battlefield, lylat


STRIKE: yoshis and lylat
BAN AND EXPECT: ban brinstar, expect ????
COUNTERPICK: fd, pictochat, battlefield/smashville


STRIKE: yoshis and fd
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd/yoshis, expect fd/yoshis?? i dunno
COUNTERPICK: battlefield


STRIKE: fd and smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: ban delfino or castle siege or something, expect one of those?? (cos the grab release chaingrab)
COUNTERPICK: battlefield or lylat


STRIKE: fd and yoshis/smashville??
BAN AND EXPECT: ban ???, expect ???
COUNTERPICK: delfino B) or halberd


STRIKE: fd and yoshis
BAN AND EXPECT: ban fd, expect ????
COUNTERPICK:JUNGLE JAPES or just battlefield i guess

finished!!

 

[Hobobloke]

Final Destination, Smashville, and Battlefield all on a 5 stage starter list? Eww.

 

[Flayl]

A couple of things Phiddlesticks:

Norfair and Japes aren't on the list, but I suppose I could make a side comment for when they're useful

I don't mind Ganon taking me to Battlefield either, but you lose aerial release chaingrabs. They're too good to pass up against Ganondorf

 

[Phiddlesticks]

edited my post with the rest of the characters

i noticed japes/norfair werent legal on the list you posted so i tried to give alternatives, except for a couple characters that i just dont know anything about

and of course anyone is free to ask questions if youre wondering why i picked a certain stage or whatever, ill try to explain my reasonings the best i can

 

[Flayl]

Good job Phiddle, I'm glad somebody stepped it up. I'm going to edit in your suggestions and my own now.

For any Bowser that wishes to contribute to this thread: I recommend doing 5 characters at a time so you don't burn out lol

 

[Zigsta]

Alrighty, I finally have time to throw in my two cents. I've bolded and capsed my changes:


STRIKE: Final Destination, LYLAT CRUISE
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Plaza
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd, BRINSTAR, CASTLE SIEGE

I hate hate hate Lylat Cruise against Captain Falcon. The stage's low platforms make Bowser easy fodder for upairs. That said, I definitely like having some platforms to deal with Falcon--just not low ones.

I put on Brinstar and CS as CPs because those are generally where I like to CP characters.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Pictochat/Smashville
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, POKEMON STADIUM, BATTLEFIELD

I prefer PS1 over PS2. It's less gimmicky, and I'm more comfortable with the stage in general. As for Battlefield, I like the additional top platform to run away from bananas.


STRIKE: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), PICTOCHAT
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, CASTLE SIEGE

I've seen DKs CP Pictochat more than Halberd to take advantage of DK's up B invincibility from the ledge. I put on CS for CPing because the second part of the stage can be handy for walkoff aerial CGs.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination,
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, Castle Siege, BATTLEFIELD

Put on Battlefield for platform camping/running away from lasers. I've played a handful of Falcos in tournament, and I've almost always had success on Battlefield.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Battleship Halberd
COUNTERPICK: Delfino Plaza, JUNGLE JAPES?

If Japes is legal, Bowser will live a lot longer from Fox's upsmash.


STRIKE: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, HALBERD, GREEN GREENS
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination

All the GWs I've played like going to Halberd for low percent upsmash KOs, especially if you ban RC. I also tossed on Green Greens, if it's legal in your region. GW's silly at planking there--his up B can go through the exploding blocks without taking damage. I've seen Zac time out people there in tournament a handful of times.

In my mind, GW is more likely to go RC, Halberd, or Green Greens than Brinstar, especially since most people in Texas know I'm good on Brinstar with Bowser.


STRIKE: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Battleship Halberd, DELFINO
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Castle Siege

The Ganons I've played enjoy playing on Delfino solely for the water. Again, I wouldn't ban Brinstar.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Smashville
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, RAINBOW CRUISE?

This is most likely a MU we'll hardly ever--if EVER--play. Maybe Rainbow Cruise to run away more? Honestly, I'd probably just go ROB in this MU.


STRIKE: Battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: LYLAT CRUISE, DELFINO
COUNTERPICK: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Final Destination

Again, not a fan of the low platforms on Lylat. I've played a good bit of solid Ikes, and they always outperform me on Lylat. Same for Delfino. I CPed an Ike a long time ago to Delfino before I knew what stages are good/bad for Ike, and everyone told me afterwards that Delfino is a really good Ike CP. I don't remember why off the top of my head, but Ike's definitely better in the water than us.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, DELFINO
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd,

Again, Jiggs around here know I'm into Brinstar. After I ban RC, they usually prefer Delfino to shark over Brinstar.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination/Castle Siege, DELFINO
COUNTERPICK: Brinstar, BATTLEFIELD

Delfino has walkoffs and allow D3 to shark. I threw up Battlefield as a CP because its platforms are handy for added mobility. Whenever I play D3s, they almost always ban Brinstar.


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Pictochat, JAPES
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, CASTLE SIEGE

If Japes is legal, some Kirbys CP it just to play gay and try to Inhale you into the water as much as possible. Bowser can still win, but it's a really long and boring match. Castle Siege is there as a CP because there's plenty of room for Bowser to CG, and there's literally nowhere Kirby can shark. Just bear in mind if Kirby has the lead, he's likely going to run during the second transformation.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Battleship Halberd, Final Destination
COUNTERPICK: BRINSTAR, CASTLE SIEGE

Usual Brinstar. The statues of CS block Link's arrows and boomerang. Not gamebreaking, but handy.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination,
COUNTERPICK: Delfino Plaza, BRINSTAR

Brinstar for lower percent KOs against Lucario.


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: Pokémon Stadium 1, JAPES
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination,

Put on Japes if legal since Lucas is likely to just run and spam projectiles there. Other than that, agreed.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Battleship Halberd,
COUNTERPICK:

I hardly have any Luigi experience. I'd likely just CP Brinstar or CS.


STRIKE: FINAL DESTINATION, PS1
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise,
COUNTERPICK: BRINSTAR

I'd strike FD and PS1 because they're large stages that favor Mario's camping. Brinstar's the opposite: A small stage that forces Mario to stay close.


STRIKE: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar/Frigate Orpheon
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Smashville/Castle Siege

Agreed.


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, SMASHVILLE
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd, CASTLE SIEGE, BRINSTAR

Marths in my region love Smashville for platform cancelling. I took off Battlefield. Originally I hated that stage against Marth, but recently I've begun actually liking taking Marth there. Both Bowser and Marth have blind spots underneath them, so both of us excel when we're underneath platforms and suck when we're above them. I feel the stage is relatively even for both characters--personal preference. Usual CS and Brinstar for CPs.


STRIKE: Battlefield, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar, Delfino Plaza
COUNTERPICK: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), FD

Added FD to have an easier time grabbing Ness. Other than that, agree.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Delfino Plaza/Castle Siege
COUNTERPICK: Rainbow Cruise, BRINSTAR, YOSHI'S ISLAND

Took off Brinstar from ban and moved to CP. I've never played an Olimar who's taken me to Brinstar, and I have played both Zori and Denti in tournament and MM, respectively. I also play with SkyPirate on a regular basis, and he hates hates HATES Brinstar. Olimar's pretty good at pressuring Bowser when he's on the ledge. Against characters who excel at keeping Bowser on the ledge and/or limiting our options recovering from the ledge, I typically favor Brinstar. It's the only stage in the game that has platforms very, very close to over the ledge--both left and right sides. Brinstar makes the ledge a less dangerous place for Bowser to be against a lot of characters.

I put on Yoshi's because every Olimar I've played hates it. I don't remember why. SkyPirate, namesearch this.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Battlefield
BAN AND EXPECT: BRINSTAR, PS1, RAINBOW CRUISE
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege, BRINSTAR

I added Brinstar to both ban and CP, depending on your preference. I've played a handful of solid Peaches, but only one top recognized Peach: Illmatic. Brinstar is his favorite CP, and it's mine, too. We're even in terms of wins on that stage against each other. I like Brinstar against Peach because Peach has trouble killing Bowser (although not as much as Samus), whereas Bowser doesn't have any problems KOing Peach. Peach can be killed at pretty low percents there. So personal preference. Depends on how confident you are on Brinstar. I practice there a lot.

Threw on PS1 and RC because they're large stages that favor Peach's turnips.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise/Final Destination
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)?

I'm not 100% sure about this. It's been a really long time since I've played a good Pikachu. I'll see what K Prime thinks at the tournament we're both attending this weekend.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege, Battlefield

Agreed.


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, Smashville, BATTLEFIELD
BAN AND EXPECT: Smashville, BATTLEFIELD, RAINBOW CRUISE
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination, Castle Siege, BRINSTAR

PT loves Battlefield, especially against characters that can GR Squirtle. It's one of their best neutrals.

As far as PT CPs go, most PTs keep it to neutrals. You might see the occasional Rainbow Cruise, as Bowser can be gimped relatively easy there, and the entire upper part of the stage allows PT to Zero Switch EASILY. It's possible to go from platform to platform and switch out repeatedly.

I'd easily CP PT to Brinstar. A long time ago, a lot of PTs said Brinstar was a viable CP, but I along with Reflex both hated the stage: Brinstar's unlevel bottom messes with Squirtle's shellshifting. Squirtle also dies at low percents here, and Ivysaur gets KO'd by lava at lower percents than other characters due to its Fire weakness. FYI, watch out for Charizard using Fly (up B) from underneath the stage. If you know it's coming, it's really easy to punish.

Also of silly note--and this isn't stage related so much as MU specific--if you think Charizard is about to Flamethrower you from the air, input a grounded Bowser Bomb. If you time it right, Charizard's a sitting duck. I played MaTa, the second best PT currently, last week, and I tested this out a bit. Just wanted to type that up before I forget about it, haha.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, Frigate Orpheon, DELFINO
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield, Brinstar?

Put on Delfino for sharking purposes.

I'm not 100% sure about Brinstar. ROB can be really, really gay and shark with upair the entire match. I'm really, really confident on Brinstar in general, but I've never played a legitimate ROB period.


STRIKE: Final Destination, BATTLEFIELD, PS1
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, BATTLEFIELD, JAPES
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege, YOSHI'S ISLAND

First off, let me correct a MAJOR mistake: Do NOT ban/strike Yoshi's against Samus. They HATE playing there. KillerJawz told me he always bans it and that Xyro likely would against me, and sure enough, Xyro banned it straight away. The Shy Guys can be annoying for Samus's projectile game.

KJ also told me BF is one of Samus's best neutrals if not her best. He also said a good Samus will NEVER lose to a good Bowser on Battlefield. I took KJ's advice and banned it against Xyro, but I may try something different in our rematch next month.

I'd strike PS1 because it's a large stage with plenty of room for Samus to camp. I know Xyro feels really comfortable hear, as I'm sure many Samus mains do, because he played PS1 a lot in Melee since Samus had missile cancel shenanigans here.

If Japes is legal, it's a legitimate stage for Samus to go to, although it's not nearly as advantageous as FD or BF for Samus. The many ledges allow Samus to plank with ease and spam projectiles--two reasons this MU's really annoying. On the flip side, Samus has a lot of trouble killing Bowser. You're gonna live to high percents here. Just know you're gonna deal with a lot of planking and projectiles. I don't play here often since it's been banned at most Texas tournaments, so I'm definitely not an expert at this stage. That said, I'd still ban FD or BF over this.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville, BATTLEFIELD
BAN AND EXPECT: Battleship Halberd, Lylat Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Rainbow Cruise, BRINSTAR

I hate Battlefield against Snake. He's good at pressuring us when he's below platforms. Literally the two times I've ever played Razer, once with PT and once with Bowser, we've randomly gone to Battlefield. Do not want.

I like taking Snake to Brinstar. The uneven terrain messes with his grenades. I recently played Ice, a solid Snake (pun intended) here in Texas, and he banned Brinstar against me not because he knows it's my best CP but because he hates it.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Pictochat, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield, BRINSTAR

Took off Lylat and replaced with Brinstar. I hate playing Sonic on Lylat solely because of those low-to-the-ground platforms. Sonic's so quick that he makes being on a such a low platform really, really annoying. I'd much rather take Sonic to Brinstar and KO him at lower percents.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville, PS1
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination, RAINBOW CRUISE?
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield, CASTLE SIEGE

Put on PS1 because it's a large neutral that favors Toon Link's camping. I'd rather go there than FD or Smashville, though, so I put it last.

FD's a solid ban. Maybe Rainbow Cruise since it gives a lot of room for Toon Link to run away and projectile camp. I took off Lylat because I generally try to stay as grounded as I can in this MU. I just don't like being anywhere near TL's bair, and to a lesser degree, nair. Dislike the low platforms on Lylat.

CS for same reasons as Link. Just bear in mind since the second part is much more open than the first and third transformations, it's much easier for TL to run and camp.



STRIKE: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Lylat Cruise
BAN AND EXPECT: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Battleship Halberd, Smashville/Pictochat

Agreed.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
BAN AND EXPECT: Final Destination,
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield,

I'm not 100% sure about this. I've only played one top Wolf in tournament--Holms--and he took me to Battlefield. I don't have much experience in this MU at all.


STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza/Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Battlefield/Brinstar

Agreed.


STRIKE: Final Destination, LYLAT
BAN AND EXPECT: DELFINO
COUNTERPICK: Castle Siege

Added Lylat because the low platforms make bair/fair annoying.

Put Delfino on ban because it's a big stage that favors Din's Fire, and the water's not a good place for us to be against Zelda.

Took off Halberd because Zelda and Sheik have good upsmashes.


STRIKE: Lylat Cruise, FINAL DESTINATION
BAN AND EXPECT: Rainbow Cruise,
COUNTERPICK: BRINSTAR, CASTLE SIEGE?

I don't like playing ZSS on FD. I like having platforms to mix things up.

This is definitely a MU I've been having trouble with lately. I'm not 100% if there's a better CP to go to, so I've going to my usual Brinstar/CS, depending on which one they ban.


That's all of them!

 

[Cassius.]

The only reason why I'm sleeping on this thread is because I have a small amount of stage knowledge...well, I'm no expert to say the least. It would certainly improve my Bowser game if I found an actual counterpick...lol

I'll put my input in eventually. The daunting list of 30someodd characters turns on the lazy factor though :x

 

[B!squick]

Ha, 30 something. If only there were that few...

 

[Flayl]

Do 5 characters a day, like I suggested in the Bowser BR. I'll edit in Zigsta's suggestions later today.

 

[Zigsta]

Updated with my reasonings for Samus. Will do more later tonight.

EDIT--Updated through Sonic.

 

[Zigsta]

Finished the entire cast. All my suggestions are caps'd and bolded.

 

[Flayl]

I'm thinking Pokémon Stadium 1 could be a decent counterpick against Sonic if they ban Brinstar: Paper thin ledges makes it easier to hit them out of a spring and the transformations stop all the spin dash shenanigans

 

[Phiddlesticks]

the problem is campy sonics will just use the stage as an easier way to time bowser out. against more aggressive sonics it can probably work though (also know that in the grass transformation sonic can do the invincible side b thingie)

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, I enjoy going PS1 against Sonics. I typically go BF if they ban Brinstar, though.

 

[Flayl]

the problem is campy sonics will just use the stage as an easier way to time bowser out. against more aggressive sonics it can probably work though (also know that in the grass transformation sonic can do the invincible side b thingie)

Did not know that about the grass tansformation. Yeah I'll agree Battlefield is better against campier Sonics.

 

[Cassius.]

I agree with Phiddle's point, you'd be better taking Sonic to a smaller stage unless the Sonic is aggressive.

If there is any sloped area, similar to the way the edge is on YI/Pictochat, Sonic can do that invincible side b thing. There are a bunch of stages and random transformations..like on RC and Delfino I think.

 

[Sky Pirate]

STRIKE: Final Destination, Smashville
BAN AND EXPECT: Delfino Plaza/Castle Siege
COUNTERPICK: Rainbow Cruise, BRINSTAR, YOSHI'S ISLAND

Took off Brinstar from ban and moved to CP. I've never played an Olimar who's taken me to Brinstar, and I have played both Zori and Denti in tournament and MM, respectively. I also play with SkyPirate on a regular basis, and he hates hates HATES Brinstar. Olimar's pretty good at pressuring Bowser when he's on the ledge. Against characters who excel at keeping Bowser on the ledge and/or limiting our options recovering from the ledge, I typically favor Brinstar. It's the only stage in the game that has platforms very, very close to over the ledge--both left and right sides. Brinstar makes the ledge a less dangerous place for Bowser to be against a lot of characters.

I put on Yoshi's because every Olimar I've played hates it. I don't remember why. SkyPirate, namesearch this.

I namesearched this as fast as I could, bro.

At the time, I just hated Yoshis because the weird lumps and tilting of the center platform can screw with our Fsmash, which is actually a pretty useful move against Bowser IMO. It's also one of the smaller neutrals, which means less space to fight. The second-chance ghosts rarely actually help us, but the slanted edges make it harder for us to gimp you.
The platform in the middle being so large offsets all this a bit.

Brinstar's just annoying because it screws with our ground game and aerial Olimar against aerial Bowser is no bueno compared to ground Olimar against aerial Bowser. The ability to kill early and the lava saving people is a blessing and a curse for both parties...

Also have no clue why Rainbow Cruise would be worse than Brinstar/YI. RC gives us tons of room and tons of uneven terrain, which translates into tons of opportunities for free damage.

Keep in mind that Zigsta left Austin a few months ago, which means that my thought may be slightly outdated when considering the current metagame.

 

[Denti]

I actually ban Brinstar on Bowser.

 

[Flayl]

Dat over a year old namesearch.

 

[Sky Pirate]

I actually ban Brinstar on Bowser.

See? Confirmation, screw that stage.

Dat over a year old namesearch.

YUP.

...actually, I've just been checking in here since Zig's taking a break and happened to see the link to this one in the other thread. I feel terrible for lying now. :<

 

[Omnibus]

I find myself getting kited and distanced by Pit on Battlefield a lot, what should I do to use the stage to my full advantage?

 

[Flayl]

Klaw hop on/drop from platforms?

It's the starter that should give you the least camping problems, you might want to post a vid so people can help you better

 

[Denti]

See? Confirmation, screw that stage.



YUP.

...actually, I've just been checking in here since Zig's taking a break and happened to see the link to this one in the other thread. I feel terrible for lying now. :<

I actually ban Brinstar when fighting a Bowser. Yea I agree with you, that stage is booty.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Any tips on facing a spammy/campy Lucario?

I know Battlefield is supposed to be a counterpick, but I feel like the platforms get in the way of aerial klawing my way through his aura spheres since alot of campy people I've played stay under the two lowest platforms. The same applies to Yoshi's Island and that huge annoying platform.