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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

MrEh

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One fatal flaw with the Klaw is it's range is the same as his normal grab. Can you extend Klaw's range with a pivot?
You cannot.

I will say that Bowser's grab range is enormous in this game though, so it's hard to justify using ground Klaw all that much.

Using Dash Klaw is amazing if done out of a pivot though. Since you can punish things from absurd distances.
 
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B!squick

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Wind Bomb is the best Bomb. I once had a Falcon do his upper cut SideB thing at the same time I DownB'd. Made his SideB end off stage and you can probably guess what happened. :)
 

Flayl

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So since I recognized it's going to take me a long ass time to play correctly on a 3ds, I've been doing some mild testing. I hope I can put a "setup" thread soon. Some things I can already tell you:

1. DThrow is completely useless in every way (it's still the funniest throw if that counts for anything).

2. BAir is just way too good. Like they took Dedede's Brawl BAir, made it do more damage, and allow it to set up at low %s. It's insane. Does not feel Bowser'ish at all.

3. Cross-up SH FF Nair might be a thing, the landing lag makes it iffy. Again this totally feels unBowser'ish to me

4. Not really a setup thing, but jumping out of suicide klaw is really easy. I couldn't do it consistently in Brawl and now I can
 

Mr. Bones

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Oh, and don't touch Koopa Klaw. It's insulting.

-Final Boss, Out.
Dash Claw is actually somewhat useful, to be perfectly honest. It's actually a reaaaallly gravy tech-chase tool, as well as the Sliding Fortress. They both let you continue attack strings that would otherwise be over if you knock your foe too far away and they hit the ground and it's not so bad in neutral game either.

But I am disappointed about Fire Ball and Fire Roar. They had so much potential.

Still, I'm glad his basic Fire Breath is as good as it is. It's really great with its increased range and width.
 

B!squick

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I love Fire Roar. You gotta give a HARRRUGGGH! while you use it though. Especially in public. The more people around the better.

But seriously, I so rarely use Fire Breath the down time is meaningless.
 

Jerodak

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I love Fire Roar. You gotta give a HARRRUGGGH! while you use it though. Especially in public. The more people around the better.

But seriously, I so rarely use Fire Breath the down time is meaningless.
Does it still have a tipper windbox?
 

Mr. Bones

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I love Fire Roar. You gotta give a HARRRUGGGH! while you use it though. Especially in public. The more people around the better.
That actually makes it sound more attractive. I'll try this. <3

But seriously, I so rarely use Fire Breath the down time is meaningless.
But...it's soooo good. </3 I'm not saying spam it, obviously. But we have great Fire Breath now why not use it?
 

B!squick

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I don't if anyone's mentioned it yet, but with speed equipment and the high vertical Fortress (2), you can actually recover from a Bowser-cide. You barely don't get enough height without equipment.
 

Jerodak

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And also, does anyone still think Bowser suffers from the same blindspot problem he had before? For anyone that doesn't know, Bowser had a pretty big issue dealing with opponents who were directly below him, without risk of committing to airdodges or trying to gamble on klaw. We do have buffed moves like DAir, and Down B which can break shields at times, but I'm still not really convinced that we can handle people who are in that area as efficiently still. I've been trying to test out and use NAir in certain situations where people are in the process of going below me or crossing me up, but I've had less success than I've been expecting.
I don't think that Bowser is completely helpless from this angle anymore, but for now, I think that it's still the weakest area for Bowser. That being said, Bowser can now use his Dair for aerial whiff punishing, and the landing hitbox seems a lot better than it was in Brawl, and the spike is very strong and capable of killing with it's Ground bounce. Then on the flip side, we have the Bowser bomb with it's improved priority and bigger shockwave when landing. Not to mention that it breaks shields now which is great. Nair, while moving away from the opponent preferably, is also a great aerial defensive option and it does hit below us but I find we need to start Nairing somewhat premptively because it does have quite a bit of start-up to it, so it's probably not going to be great as a combo breaker, but it's good for when you're too far away for them to combo but they are trying to juggle you on the way down and you want to get past them to land.

However just between our two stall and fall moves, I've noticed that a lot of players seem to favor non-interaction when it comes to dealing with those options, or smart players will try to bait them out of us to punish, in these situation, you can actually land for free by just fast falling if you're already close enough to the ground, and to be extra safe you can cover yourself with firebreath if you feel like they will catch on and try to approach at the last moment for a grab or something.
 

MrEh

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I am a huge advocate for Dash Klaw on the grounds that Regular Klaw is no where near as good as it was in Brawl.
 

Big-Cat

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So since I recognized it's going to take me a long *** time to play correctly on a 3ds, I've been doing some mild testing. I hope I can put a "setup" thread soon. Some things I can already tell you:

1. DThrow is completely useless in every way (it's still the funniest throw if that counts for anything).

2. BAir is just way too good. Like they took Dedede's Brawl BAir, made it do more damage, and allow it to set up at low %s. It's insane. Does not feel Bowser'ish at all.

3. Cross-up SH FF Nair might be a thing, the landing lag makes it iffy. Again this totally feels unBowser'ish to me

4. Not really a setup thing, but jumping out of suicide klaw is really easy. I couldn't do it consistently in Brawl and now I can
Speaking of setups, I was coming in here to see if any were found. I discovered one for Palutena and was hoping some Bowser ones were found.
 

Jerodak

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I am a huge advocate for Dash Klaw on the grounds that Regular Klaw is no where near as good as it was in Brawl.
When does it K.O?

Edit; By the way, I found out that Bowser bomb does not care about Lucario's Aura Sphere, at all. I fought one trying to use it while I was recovering, and even after charging it, Bowser bomb to the ledge won every time, It just erases the projectile and keeps going! The improved priority on the bomb is pretty nice, I think we may want to test that out.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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When does it K.O?

Edit; By the way, I found out that Bowser bomb does not care about Lucario's Aura Sphere, at all. I fought one trying to use it while I was recovering, and even after charging it, Bowser bomb to the ledge won every time, It just erases the projectile and keeps going! The improved priority on the bomb is pretty nice, I think we may want to test that out.
In training mode, the dash klaw kills at the edge of an omega stage when both you and a light weight opponent are at 140% without vectoring. You can translate this to x1.2 due to rage effect for 168% without vectoring. No equipment for strength, btw. Strength was at 0.

@ J Jerodak About the bowser bomb beating projectiles, I've found that I cannot beat Airman with it no matter what I do. Even after 1000x, Airman ga Taosanai.

EDIT: Forgot that training mode in Brawl and in this game reduces damage and knock back by a small amount for some reason. This should tack on 2% or so for 170% against a light weight.
 
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Xadrin

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I don't if anyone's mentioned it yet, but with speed equipment and the high vertical Fortress (2), you can actually recover from a Bowser-cide. You barely don't get enough height without equipment.
You actually can recover like that without equipment. It's just character-specific on certain stages. Some characters make Bowser jump out of his Bowsercide lower than other characters do for some reason (it isn't a size issue), and with those characters, you can't recover on every stage. Yoshi's Island seems to be the only legal stage where it isn't character-specific. I've had success with it without equipment on Battlefield, Final Destination, and various Omega form stages.

But it definitely does take some good timing to get down.
 
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Rs71

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how do you get rid of bowser's landing lag? its the only thing holding him back?
 

UltimaLuminaire

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how do you get rid of bowser's landing lag? its the only thing holding him back?
Landing with the Klaw will cancel landing lag. Similarly, both the bair and fair can be auto-canceled as long as you know the timing for it. Bowser can also simply land without attacking, and in most instances you can get off a shield or spot dodge if the enemy attempts to punish an empty landing. Simply start up your flamebreath if you don't care to bait someone. Angle it down and catch people that are too close. You can also reverse your flamebreath by gently pushing the circle pad in the direction you want the attack to go. It will take some practice on the 3ds.

If you're up against an advanced player who's trying to shield grab your landing, you can also just jump off of them. You'll get a fair bit of distance from it and they won't be able to do much about it.
 
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Mr. Bones

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Landing with Firebreath? What? This sounds like a bad idea to me.
It is in most cases. Especially if they're directly under you or close to it. I usually Klaw Land and dash away while keeping my distance.

Sometimes I land with aerial Down-B once per fight to catch someone off guard. Other than that, Firebreath can help if they're a safe distance away. I find that being about 2 or 2 1/2 "Bowsers" away.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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Landing with Firebreath? What? This sounds like a bad idea to me.
If the opponent hesitates as you fall, you can usually fadeaway firebreath if you just don't care to land laglessly. It's rare for someone to rush you once you've already got the fire out in the air and angled down, and if they unsuccessfully challenge it, it can lead to anywhere from 11-18% damage. That said, it's just another option and so it's nice to bring it out every once in a while to test its limits. So far, it's been a solid option against opponents trying to shield grab or spot dodge your landing, especially since the fire auto-spaces, pushing you back at the same time it pushes the opponent away. That aspect in particular has been useful to me a couple times, and I recall ZeRo noted it being a nice feature while using Bowser against M2K back when only the Japanese version was out and ZeRo was streaming his 100 hour marathon (yup, it's in past broadcasts if you don't believe it). It's possible for it to push you off the ledge, too, but the cost of being in a less advantageous position can alter your decision in that instance.
 
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D

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I was wondering...is Up-B out of shield as effective an option anymore as it was in past games? It seems like the hitbox for his Whirling Fortress has gotten considerably smaller and it just doesn't feel as safe of an option in this game.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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I was wondering...is Up-B out of shield as effective an option anymore as it was in past games? It seems like the hitbox for his Whirling Fortress has gotten considerably smaller and it just doesn't feel as safe of an option in this game.
It no longer has invincibility, so it's not good for trades. The only times to use it are when you literally have no faster or safer option to punish, but the window of opportunity is still there. An example is when a character whiffs an attack and lands right behind you or otherwise just rolls right behind you. Your jab, ftilt, and Klaw might go right past them due to the hitbox being placed in front of Bowser but not being inside of Bowser, and you didn't prepare a down smash since you didn't hard read your opponent. In fact, the ftilt and Klaw may not come out fast enough anyway, also ruling out the use of down B's initial hitbox. That's a good time to use it on reflex.
 
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D

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It no longer has invincibility, so it's not good for trades. The only times to use it are when you literally have no faster or safer option to punish, but the window of opportunity is still there. An example is when a character whiffs an attack and lands right behind you or otherwise just rolls right behind you. Your jab, ftilt, and Klaw might go right past them due to the hitbox being placed in front of Bowser but not being inside of Bowser, and you didn't prepare a down smash since you didn't hard read your opponent. In fact, the ftilt and Klaw may not come out fast enough anyway, also ruling out the use of down B's initial hitbox. That's a good time to use it on reflex.
Hm...it just doesn't sound worthwhile anymore. I keep Tap-Jump on for the purposes of using that option, but it may be a better option for me to turn it off, as having tap-jump on causes me issues sometimes.
 

DD_

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You actually can recover like that without equipment. It's just character-specific on certain stages. Some characters make Bowser jump out of his Bowsercide lower than other characters do for some reason (it isn't a size issue), and with those characters, you can't recover on every stage. Yoshi's Island seems to be the only legal stage where it isn't character-specific. I've had success with it without equipment on Battlefield, Final Destination, and various Omega form stages.

But it definitely does take some good timing to get down.
Just an extra titbit, my region is allowing Tomodachi as a counterpick for our first tournament to see how it runs. Bowser can easily perform a survivable Bowserside on this stage without using a custom upb. has worked on all characters i've tested so far. Duno how Bowser will otherwise fare on this stage but at least we get this jank
 

MrEh

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Hm...it just doesn't sound worthwhile anymore. I keep Tap-Jump on for the purposes of using that option, but it may be a better option for me to turn it off, as having tap-jump on causes me issues sometimes.
It's still worth it because it allows you to punish things that a shield grab wouldn't be able to.
 

Jerodak

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So I've noticed that SH autocancel aerials always puts Bowser into his hard landing, the same goes with side b, I did a bit of dabbling around with both custom versions, I can see why everyone likes the dash grab, but I feel like a few were a little quick to judge the dash slash, it covers more distance, has even less lag than the other klaws when you land it, and while it may not beat counters and shields or give us the Bowsercide option, or K.O very well if at all like the default version. It does give Bowser a pretty strong aggro and approach game, and it looks like he can get some combos off of it and it can still be used to transition into an offstage situation. I feel like it also help's Bowser's throw game since You may very well get to follow up from a down throw this way.

From the right range, it it'll klank projectiles, and if you time it perfectly then you can klank the projectile right next to them, leaving them stuck in cooldown while you're in thier face. Also, You can use if for off stage edgeguarding either the hit itself or just the mobility to go further offstage before using it again to return. Finally, you'll never have to worry about having to be super careful in it's use because of being behind a stock.

I am in no way saying that this is the best version, or that everyone should be using it, but I don't think it deserves to be ignored either. The fast fortress also seems pretty great, it's the only version I've tried so far but I actually like it, it's pretty active, hitting through most of it's animation, and it seems decently safe as long as you aren't predictable. If anyone gives you the slightest opening then you will very likely be able to escape with this version. Offstage as a recovery it doesn't go as high but the vertical range drop didn't seem too drastic to me, It's definately still useable as a recovery. It seems like you can use it's active frames and speed to cover multiple evasive options pretty safely, I feel like you can run up and use it, pause for just a moment then press forward or back to roll away, if they shield, then you have a good chance to escape before they can grab or shield drop to punish you, if they spotdodge, you waited in place for a bit, so they'll get meatied, and if they roll then all you need to do is read the direction and you might be able to hit them out of it. If it hits, the knockback combined with your movement is pretty generous so getting punished on hit might not be a major concern with this version. It can still be used reliably OOS as well though it does appear to be just a tad bit slower. However, it's a free escape when it hits OOS, which is good, it puts a lot of space between you and the opponent, which could give you time to recover if they had the momentum for a while.

Then there's Turbulent Bomb, this also seems like a pretty safe move because of the windbox, it pushes quite far, and is pretty big, so if they are trying to grab or smash you when you land then they'll get pushed away and you'll probably be completely safe. It doesn't seem to be as great for damage or K.O. However, it's pretty amazing as an edgeguarding tool. If anyone fails to snap the ledge with Up B when the windbox comes out they are probably done. Either they'll be blown too far away to make it, or you might push them in a way that would set up for a free hit. So I would probably use this as a surprise landing tool and for edge guarding mostly.


I'll be honest, at first I didn't see myself using any of Bowser's customs but after taking a look at a few of them for myself, I may end up using them after all, despite how straightforward they are, they are still pretty good.
 

FlareRDB

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I don't if anyone's mentioned it yet, but with speed equipment and the high vertical Fortress (2), you can actually recover from a Bowser-cide. You barely don't get enough height without equipment.
You can recover from a Bowser-cide with no equipment modifications, vertical fortress alone is enough.
 

Zigsta

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Bowser's blindspot is still an issue, but it's thankfully not as massive as in Brawl. Rosalina's rough since her upair and upsmash have more priority than nair, dair, and Bowser Bomb though. :/
 
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Mr. Bones

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I've hated Rosa more than Mac ever since I got the game. lol

As far as moves go, can we talk about how Uair is just weird in this game? It took me several matches to find out its hitbox.

It's a pretty nice move but it's slightly annoying not to be able to hit people near you, but then that's just something that makes Up-B still useful if people are on your tail. I'm not too worried about it not being able to hit people on the ground in front of you either, our jab/F-tilt is so gravy in this game.
 
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Zigsta

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Uair lost its KO power and doesn't frame trap like it does in Brawl, but I love offstage upair. Most of the time people expect a bair or fair from Bowser jumping offstage towards them, and upair will catch them.
 

MrEh

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^
Uair just needs to be used as more of a traditional Uair compared to the frame-trappy nonsense it was in Brawl and Melee. Yes it's weaker, but now you can land it on people that aren't just mashing airdodge.

It can also now be used as a reactionary thing towards preemptive airdodges, which is great.
 

Jerodak

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Yeah Up air is pretty good for damage, and the K.O power isn't as good as before, but I've gotten my fair share of KOs with it. As for spot dodgers, Nair and Dair both seem to work pretty well. Nair will outlast the airdoge, and no one is expecting someone to Dair them from below. The rise up animation serves a similar purpose to the start of of the old up air and Dair is pretty solid for K.Os, though probably still not as good as Brawl or Melee up air.
 

Mr. Bones

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Lmao. I started an entire discussion about Uair and I meant to say UTilt. GG Guys. GG

I actually like the new Uair, to be honest. Like Utilt too. I sure do miss the old Forward Smash tho.
 
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Jerodak

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Lmao. I started an entire discussion about Uair and I meant to say UTilt. GG Guys. GG

I actually like the new Uair, to be honest. Like Utilt too. I sure do miss the old Forward Smash tho.
oh, well yeah the up tilt hitbox is great, it actually hits a little bit in front of him now, against anyone that's around Shulk's height or taller I think. So it could be a great alternative to up angle Ftilt since it covers about the same area, while also covering the entire area above and behind you and being a generally better K.O vs airborne opponents thanks to the vertical knockback.
 

Endeby

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Going to jump on the Dash Claw bandwagon. It really help Bowser against characters that would normally camp him hard. Try it out against Rosalina or DHD, for instance. Makes everything easier.
 

MrEh

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Remember my post talking about Bowsers disjointed moves? I was trying to tell people how ridiculous upsmash is, but maybe you guys already knew.
That's just the autoguard on Bowser's shell being silly. Usmash was always that big, but the autoguard makes everything really bonkers.

Basically if a move hits a part of Bowser's body that has autoguard (his shell) and a part of his body that doesn't at the same time, the game says "**** it" and treats the entire move as getting autoguarded.
 
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