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Bowser's L cancel

tasteless gentleman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
492
So after playing with bowser forever i noticed a flaw in my game plan, So heres my question.

Are any of them safe on shield (example, marth can fair, L cancel, and grab before you can react)

Is any move actually safe on shield?
 

tasteless gentleman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
492
Apologies, but I cant quite tell. Im gonna guess that if the advantage on shield is in the negative then it is UNSAFE? My main question is nair at -2, is that the L cancel rating or not? If it is not, how can i calculate its advantage on shield?
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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Mar 31, 2011
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Location
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Apologies, but I cant quite tell. Im gonna guess that if the advantage on shield is in the negative then it is UNSAFE? My main question is nair at -2, is that the L cancel rating or not? If it is not, how can i calculate its advantage on shield?
The format is normal/L-Cancel/auto cancel. The -2 assumes an auto cancel.

Yes, a negative number is unsafe on shield. Basically what that means is that your opponent can act of shield two frames faster than you can act out of landing.
 

Pluttergub

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
26
Flames are safe on shield. You can't abuse that in 3.6 as much as you could in previous versions due to the removal of flame cancel, but the flames themselves are stronger than ever. Spacing Fair on shield can be hard to punish for many characters even though it's not positive on shield. If you're outside their grab range after the Fair, you're taking away many characters' fastest option out of shield (frame 7-8).

In the case mentioned above of autocancelled Nair on shield, your opponent has 2 frames to act out of shield before you do out of landing as Boiko explained. This doesn't necessarily mean they can punish you, however, even if you're not spaced outside their grab range. Assuming both you and your opponent are frame perfect, they will start their grab 2 frames before you can act. Bowser's fastest option out of shield is UpB, which grants intangibility from frames 1-4 then a hitbox on frame 5. UpB's hitbox would come out 7 frames after your opponent has grabbed, which will unfortunately result in you getting grabbed, assuming a frame 7 grab (Falcon and Bowser have slower grabs, among others). They would take damage from UpB but you would lose the exchange in this case. To win this sort of interaction, you would actually have to wait 2-4 frames after your autocancel landing lag to UpB to make use of the intangibility. This way, you are intangible during the 2 active frames of their grab, then the UpB hitbox comes out and hits them. Application of this is considerably hard to do consistently and intentionally, but you should, according to probability, win a majority of exchanges like this. More specifically, there are three different frames on which you can UpB and win the exchange, while there are only two frames on which you can UpB and lose the exchange, ignoring all timings past frame 5 after your landing lag is over. I'll attempt a visualization of this since explaining it in adequate detail is a complete mess with just text. The three following scenarios assume this is after a frame-perfect autocancelled Nair on shield (-2 frame advantage). Apologies for lazy formatting.

UpB ASAP After Lag
I've bolded the most important frames in each table. As you can see at Frames 7-8, Bowser's intangibility frames (i-frames) from UpB run out right before the opponent's grab comes out. Therefore, Bowser is grabbed and the opponent suffers 13% from the first hitbox of UpB (this situation is often referred to as "grab armor").

UpB 1 Frame Later
In this case, the last frame of Bowser's intangibility and the first frame of the opponent's grab hitbox overlap. However, the result of this interaction is the same as above due to the second frame of the opponent's grab hitbox not being avoided by intangibility (Frame 9 in table).

UpB 2 Frames Later
Here, Bowser wins the exchange because BOTH of the opponent's grab frames overlap Bowser's i-frames. UpB's hitbox comes out 1 frame later to punish the opponent's endlag. This result also occurs if Bowser waits 3 frames and 4 frames after his landing lag ends. After these 3 frames, however, the opponent will win the exchange again due to his first active grab hitbox coming out before Bowser starts his UpB. Hopefully this demonstration was more clear than the abomination of a paragraph I wrote above.

Jab1 is also notable for the same reason as AC Nair: most characters can't punish it if spaced correctly on shield. At low % the opponent can crouch cancel Jab1 for a punish, and you should be wary of them Shield DI'ing towards you, but otherwise it's fairly safe.

Edited for clarity and accuracy.
 
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tasteless gentleman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
492
Flames are safe on shield. You can't abuse that in 3.6 as much as you could in previous versions due to the removal of flame cancel, but the flames themselves are stronger than ever. Spacing Fair on shield can be hard to punish for many characters even though it's not positive on shield. If you're outside their grab range after the Fair, you're taking away many characters' fastest option out of shield (frame 7-8).

In the case mentioned above of autocancelled Nair on shield, your opponent has 2 frames to act out of shield before you do out of landing as Boiko explained. This doesn't necessarily mean they can punish you, however, even if you're not spaced outside their grab range. Assuming both you and your opponent are frame perfect, they will start their grab 2 frames before you can act. Bowser's fastest option out of shield is UpB, which grants intangibility from frames 1-4 then a hitbox on frame 5. UpB's hitbox would come out 7 frames after your opponent has grabbed, which will unfortunately result in you getting grabbed, assuming a frame 7 grab (Falcon and Bowser have slower grabs, among others). They would take damage from UpB but you would lose the exchange in this case. To win this sort of interaction, you would actually have to wait 2-4 frames after your autocancel landing lag to UpB to make use of the intangibility. This way, you are intangible during the 2 active frames of their grab, then the UpB hitbox comes out and hits them. Application of this is considerably hard to do consistently, but you should win a majority of exchanges like this since UpB has 4 intangibility frames while most grabs have only 2 active frames. Therefore, there are three different frames on which you can UpB and win the exchange, while there is only 1 frame on which you can UpB and lose the exchange, ignoring all timings past frame 5 after your landing lag is over. It might be easier to crudely draw this out, but it's honestly a complete crapshoot who wins the interaction in a real game that I won't bother.

Jab1 is also notable for the same reason as AC Nair: most characters can't punish it if spaced correctly on shield. At low % the opponent can crouch cancel Jab1 for a punish, and you should be wary of them Shield DI'ing towards you, but otherwise it's fairly safe.
This was an amazing and well thought out answer, i would always try up b out of shield and would lose and not understand why but you explained it very well and i thank you for that. This type of answer is what helps players become better and i wish there were more people like you willing to endow others with this type of knowledge.

but that said, i really dont think flames do as much damage as they did in 3.6 (it is hard to count but it looks like 2% per hit or a slower 3% per hit) but i would average about 20+ damage per flame cancel to the face and now i get about 17 before they are out.
 
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Zigludo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
206
Location
Southwest Florida (Naples)
What I wouldn't give for a single extra frame of intangibility on upB, to overlap the first hitbox frame. tired of losing to slow grab tech chases and lingering grab hitboxes (Wario Ganon Tink Link)
 
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