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Q&A Bowser's Inside Story - Q&A
- Thread starter Hokori
- Start date
B!squick
Smash Master
I don't know. I think Mac has him beat. I haven't looked at the armor list in a while.
Funkermonster
The Clown
Best approach option?
Walk.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Eh, walking all the way up seems unnecessarily slow. Reverting to neutral from a run in this game seems really fast compared to brawl. But yeah, in general, if you're not trying to pin down someone, walking is a really good option. Bowser is a tank with sick defensive punishes and great normals. Watch how Snakes in Brawl spent a lot of time walking around.
How does ledge trumping work with Bowser? I realized you can ledge trump (or hard punish) with downB, and I get the feeling that's probably the easiest way to do it... But what do I get afterwards? I'd say fair, but I can't get this guy to turn around in midair. Is Bair fast enough?
How does ledge trumping work with Bowser? I realized you can ledge trump (or hard punish) with downB, and I get the feeling that's probably the easiest way to do it... But what do I get afterwards? I'd say fair, but I can't get this guy to turn around in midair. Is Bair fast enough?
Every Bowser at some point during the Super Arcade tournament last Saturday, including Zigsta, underestimated how helpless we are in the initial dash frames. Don't dash when they're within a certain range (character specific) unless you know you're gonna get something sweet or you're gonna dash backwards right away. Bowser's dash stop isn't fast enough to save him against the people you will face in the future. If you know your options for pressure, definitely dash in to get within the optimal range unless you need to walk + power shield through projectiles or jump over stuff. Example would be Mario forgoing fireballs to charge his fludd. Get in there and exert pressure for free if he does that.
Ledge trump situations that you're about to win come in two flavors:
- They get shoved off like a champ. This is when you should either pull away and second jump into bair. If you think they're going to jump high, you should full ledge jump into bair. Otherwise, get onto stage immediately for stage control.
- They reflexively get onto stage before the trump goes through. You either make the right choice getting back on stage or suffer a positional disadvantage.
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MrEh
Smash Hero
You run to close the distance when your opponent is really far away, but I usually stop running a large distance away from my opponent. I'm talking like 10 feet or more.
This. This is what determined my victories in the loser's bracket.
Kooky Koopa
Smash Apprentice
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- Koopa1989
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Alright, I really need some advice fellow Bowsers. I recently attended another online tournament but this time my panic d-air habit got the better of me and cost me in an early elimination. I came 19th out of 51 players but felt really disappointed in myself. The player who took me out did make it to the grand finals mind, but the fact my d-air habit was bagging him free % was still a massive stand out for me.
How do I kick this habit proper? When things go wrong, I start to d-air and d-air like crazy. Everything goes out the window and Bowser ends up in his shell, which in this case results in free punishes. I use it here and there to get kills, which it does effectively when it actually hits but its become my immediate fall back when things go wrong and it makes things infinitely worse. Any suggestions to resort to a more safer muscle memory instinct when I'm getting tossed into the air or just in general?
How do I kick this habit proper? When things go wrong, I start to d-air and d-air like crazy. Everything goes out the window and Bowser ends up in his shell, which in this case results in free punishes. I use it here and there to get kills, which it does effectively when it actually hits but its become my immediate fall back when things go wrong and it makes things infinitely worse. Any suggestions to resort to a more safer muscle memory instinct when I'm getting tossed into the air or just in general?
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MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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If you are using Dair to land on the ground it's often better to simply land without using any kind of attack. Unless you are sure it will hit. And it's often better to either use FF Nair, Fair, or drift away and just land normally. Only use Dair when you know it is going to hit.
@
Kooky Koopa
In what situation exactly are you throwing it out? Are they in your face high above FD? Are they on the ground after a follow-up and you're high up? Are you low to the ground and suffering from an attack string? There are proper responses based on what the expected follow-ups are, and none of them should immediately be dair unless they've already committed by throwing out an attack.
Kooky Koopa
In what situation exactly are you throwing it out? Are they in your face high above FD? Are they on the ground after a follow-up and you're high up? Are you low to the ground and suffering from an attack string? There are proper responses based on what the expected follow-ups are, and none of them should immediately be dair unless they've already committed by throwing out an attack.
Kooky Koopa
Smash Apprentice
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@
It's generally when I'm losing, be it on the ground or air, I'll start d-airing after trying to very obviously jump above them and do it. But the most common is when I'm knocked in the air, getting beat up quite badly and will d-air. It's like a yoyo. I'll get belted into the sky and almost immediately try to d-air to hit them. Mixed with the inner panic and "Oh my God, I need to do something!" feeling screaming inside me, it is d-air, d-air, d-air.
If I get my nerves back and stop doing it and focus on fast falling, fire or just air dodging, things can go back to normal. But if the opponent is particularly consistent and good, the panic button is impossible to turn off until it's far too late and they simply kill me with a smash attack or one last punish. Be it following me up on the ground while I'm in the air, or I'm in the air and they're in my face, d-air is what happens. It is my panic reflex at this point. Its pretty bad and I know I need to kick this habit if I want to improve my Bowser any further.
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Well if they've followed you all the way to the top of FD, dair is normally okay since you'll just hit the ground first. Other than that, you need to keep your mind on your opponent. If they're not following you and they're just going to act defensively against your jumps like that, thinking you're gonna dair, then that means they're respecting you too much. That's as good as it gets since you can transition into an aerial klaw, flame, or bait out a defensive option. Honestly, the best remedy in your situation is defeat. Keep getting bodied until you understand when not to use to the dair and how to handle your panic. Submerge yourself in Sm4sh. Learn the proper DI against attack strings as best you can. Save your second jump to save yourself or bait out a reaction.
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MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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Main point with Bowser is that Bowser WANTS to be on the ground. That is where you are good. That's your A game as the King of Awesome.
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
It's usually better to use n-air while falling if they're chasing you in the air and you have enough time to throw it out. One of the only times I'll ever use d-air is when I'm just about to land but I see the opponent running towards me to grab or dash attack as soon as my feet touch the ground. Another option is B-reverse Fire Breath to shift your momentum the opposite way. High-level Lucarios make good use of it as they'll either be facing the opponent in a position to throw out Aura Sphere or facing away to hit them while charging. For us it isn't quite as amazing of an option but it's better than taking it up the rear end for free all day.
rekt
Smash Cadet
Need help regarding recovery with bowser. Straight vertical recoveries to ledge don't always auto grab for me. Any way to fix this? I'm not holding anything when I hit upB and it still ignores the ledge and I land on the ground leaving me vulnerable...
Huben Draknir
Smash Rookie
It's because your facing away from the stage, this can be tested in training mode, if your facing the stage your up-b will always snap but if your facing away from the stage you will not snap until the attack is done and you go into fortress' falling animation even if you sit right at the edge during the whole attack it won't snap until it's over.
I've gotten accustomed to just side-b towards the stage instantly after my attack when jumping out to edge guard. That way I'm always going to snap in case they evade the attack and get to the stage first I won't get punished. Just save your double jump until after you side b so either run of fair, sh/fh fair, or RAR bair, side b towards the stage then jump and up b. I've also managed to snatch them with the klaw if all they did was air dodge my fair and they're usually so shocked they give me full control of the side b so if I was a stock ahead I take them to the blast zone so they can't recover or just take them back on the stage.
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rekt
Smash Cadet
Great! Thank you so much!
Ranias
Smash Journeyman
Is Bowser viable in 2v2 at all? My gut says no because his moves are too laggy and he has too large of a hurtbox.
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MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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Bowser can potentially double KO with Klaw so there's that and I imagine 2 people getting caught in a Fortress is all sorts of fun. Maybe even having a partner set up a opponent for Dropkicks. I think it completely depends on synergy.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
I think Bowser has more value in doubles in this game than in the previous ones simply because of rage. He can afford to take risks and be aggressive because his survivability has increased drastically due to the mechanics of the game and his improved recovery. Yes, he's still a large character, and can take a lot of hits, but the rage mechanic allows him to set up kills EXTREMELY easily. He has a myriad of kill moves, so in theory, all he needs is a partner who can set up those situations for him.
So, I believe he works best with characters who can set up kills for him via throws or any quick moves, or characters that can build damage quickly either from close or afar, or also with characters who can keep a team divided for a period of time. My opinion will probably change as the game goes on, but I've had the most success with those types of characters.
Basically a character that can allow Bowser to go in, and then switch off and toss people to him for kills. He's clearly not the most staple doubles character, and I'm not sure if I would consider him viable, but he's certainly not a terrible pick anymore.
So, I believe he works best with characters who can set up kills for him via throws or any quick moves, or characters that can build damage quickly either from close or afar, or also with characters who can keep a team divided for a period of time. My opinion will probably change as the game goes on, but I've had the most success with those types of characters.
Basically a character that can allow Bowser to go in, and then switch off and toss people to him for kills. He's clearly not the most staple doubles character, and I'm not sure if I would consider him viable, but he's certainly not a terrible pick anymore.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
I also like that side b has a hitbox while he's moving through the air, so when you do get side B, your opponent could throw someone at you and you might be able to KO two players at once, or if you happen to accidentally grab your partner you have the chance to land on an opponent so it's not a total waste of percent. Perhaps side B won't be completely useless in doubles now, especially since the Bowsercide was nerfed.
Laggalot101
Smash Apprentice
Could someone help me figure out how to make Bowser's Nair useful? I read a little bit on the moveset data thread. Apparently it can catch airdodges, it has purposes in edgeguarding, it can lead into some other moves, and a couple other things that I didn't manage to remember. This all sounds cool and all, but I have trouble visualizing it in my head. I can't get a good picture of how that's supposed to work. Can someone elaborate on this, or perhaps redirect me to a video or something? I think my Bowser play could really improve from understanding this move.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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Landing the 2nd hitbox of the attack offers little knockback but has enough hitstun for a frame trap right into a Bowser Bomb or followup. If you can get it to hit near the ground that is.
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Kooky Koopa
Smash Apprentice
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Any advice how to stop speedy characters who just grab you? Specifically the likes of Sonic and Captain Falcon. In FG today I encountered a Sonic who two stocked me by obsessively grabbing me, throw, waiting for me to land and just grabbing again until I was at high %. With the odd f-air and b-air thrown in. He would do something similar to Macs where they run up to you then tumble, wait for a whiff then snatch me. I know the obvious answer is to spot dodge all of them, but they can simply wait for me to miss an attack or dodge too early and get me anyway. This isn't much of an issue with other characters due to their speed, but the likes of Sonic and Falcon makes it very difficult.
This seems to have become really popular with those characters lately, especially the more experienced ones. Anything else besides desperately trying to do an up-b and praying my spot-dodge actually avoids a gab or is this just a situation Bowser will struggle with from here on out? I tried the walking approach and jabbing but Sonic either got his grab time perfect or ran up, shielded my jab and just grabbed again. Was pretty tedious to fight against.
This seems to have become really popular with those characters lately, especially the more experienced ones. Anything else besides desperately trying to do an up-b and praying my spot-dodge actually avoids a gab or is this just a situation Bowser will struggle with from here on out? I tried the walking approach and jabbing but Sonic either got his grab time perfect or ran up, shielded my jab and just grabbed again. Was pretty tedious to fight against.
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If they're waiting for you to jab first, then that's a good sign. It means they're respecting you. You just need even moar patience. If they continue to respect you, then you can transition into the air. Keep your double jump to bait the dash grab. If you don't have a double jump, you can supplement with klaw, firebreath, or dair's rise, depending on if you think they're going for the straight dash grab or dash to shield grab.
Other than that, keep practicing jab timing. It beats out the dash grab option and if they're dashing into shield, you should be prepared with your own grab to counter the mixup. If they shield just outside of your grab range, you have even more options since they can no longer dash into shield and our neutral game is stronger.
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Laggalot101
Smash Apprentice
Ignore this if I'm spouting nonsense here. I'm not really experienced in this specific situation, but I want to share a thought regardless. And maybe I'll learn a thing or two from this myself.
Additionally to what UltimaLuminaire says in his second paragraph, couldn't your own grab simply beat out your opponent's (with good timing, of course)? Bowser has pretty good grab range from what I can tell. Not sure how this goes for Sonic and Falcon, but I wonder. And perhaps your command grab, the Flying Slam might be meaningful as well? I think it's range is a little shorter (just a guesstimate), but it's a lot more powerful, and since it sends your opponent a good ways upwards, you might be able to put your opponent in a tough spot. Theoretically.
Additionally to what UltimaLuminaire says in his second paragraph, couldn't your own grab simply beat out your opponent's (with good timing, of course)? Bowser has pretty good grab range from what I can tell. Not sure how this goes for Sonic and Falcon, but I wonder. And perhaps your command grab, the Flying Slam might be meaningful as well? I think it's range is a little shorter (just a guesstimate), but it's a lot more powerful, and since it sends your opponent a good ways upwards, you might be able to put your opponent in a tough spot. Theoretically.
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Kooky Koopa
Smash Apprentice
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That actually does work when I'm fighting slower characters like Mario or Megaman. But when it comes to the likes of Sonic or other fast characters, a single grab whiff will see you getting grabbed as punishment. The timing is very difficult, despite the range. I probably just need to practice but when you're in the heat of things and fighting amongst the quickest of the cast, I think it's just too difficult to pin down the timing. It's far more easier for them to bait out a grab, dodge or tumble back, than it is for you to land that grab at the crucial time. At least that's what I've found recently.
On top of having an incredibly precise dash grab (he pretty much stops his forward momentum immediately), Sanic's grabs are fairly nonthreatening. If you're constantly getting grabbed, go ahead and take the year or so it takes for you to lose a stock as time to reflect and run through your options. If Sanic is killing you early off of his throws, then that's a sign you need to sharpen your DI and be on the look out for options that put you at a disadvantage against his fsmash or usmash. Don't be afraid of the spring. You can delay or speed up your journey to the ledge to ignore the spring completely. The side hitboxes on aerial fortress win out against it, too. Also, FG is a horrible place to judge your timing. You only want to base your timing on offline matches, no matter how good the connection seems in FG. Take FG with a grain of salt and maintain confidence in your ability to learn.
Also, klaw's value is diminished by the normal grab's potential for pummel at mid to high percent. Grab + 2x pummel + fthrow is already 18%. An extra pummel already exceeds the damage of klaw and will probably net a fthrow or bthrow kill if you had initiated the grab at 110%, edge of FD. Since klaw isn't a terribly good OoS option and dash -> klaw has a specific spacing, you'll find more kills netted off of grab pummel than klaw.
Also, klaw's value is diminished by the normal grab's potential for pummel at mid to high percent. Grab + 2x pummel + fthrow is already 18%. An extra pummel already exceeds the damage of klaw and will probably net a fthrow or bthrow kill if you had initiated the grab at 110%, edge of FD. Since klaw isn't a terribly good OoS option and dash -> klaw has a specific spacing, you'll find more kills netted off of grab pummel than klaw.
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Rend4125
Smash Cadet
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- Billiam4125
How good do you guys think bowsers Nair is? It seems to me like it has poor priority, doesn't punish air dodges if they use it the same time you Nair, and has bad landing lag. I try using this move sometimes if they're on a platform or something, but even then up smash uair or fair feels like they'd be better options. It just seems like a move when whiffed, can be easily punished.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I love nair. Been using it more and more as a mixup. If you hit with the end of nair, you can often fullhop bair since the opponent is still in hitstun.
Grizzlpaw
Rawr~ ♪
What is bowser's best response to a Jr that likes to use Mecha Koopa and approach while walking behind it
Dealing with Koopa pretty much forces you to shield or jump, and from my experience, Jr has an easy time punishing both options on reaction. I've had the most luck with PS'ing the koopa and then running up and grabbing the jr, but that option gets very predictable very quick.
Any thoughts?
Dealing with Koopa pretty much forces you to shield or jump, and from my experience, Jr has an easy time punishing both options on reaction. I've had the most luck with PS'ing the koopa and then running up and grabbing the jr, but that option gets very predictable very quick.
Any thoughts?
B!squick
Smash Master
@
Grizzlpaw
Punch it? Bowser can punch Bob-bombs no problem. Not sure if Mecha Koopas have a bigger hitbox or not. I'm actually not busy at the moment, let me check...
Okay, the problem isn't hitting them, it's the exploding they do after jumping once hit.
Moves that can set it off without taking damage:
Jab? (one time the MK did it's jump attack but exploded too far away to deal damage with that; couldn't replicate)
FTilt
DTilt
UTilt (facing away)
FSmash? (one time the MK walked UNDER me without stopping; couldn't replicate)
DSmash? (one time the MK walked THROUGH me without stopping; couldn't replicate)
USmash
NeutralB
DownB
Alternately you can just pick it up with A or any short hopped aerial sans UAir. Dash Attack picks it up from really far away and seems easier than pressing A which runs the risk of doing a Jab which is bad.
Grizzlpaw
Punch it? Bowser can punch Bob-bombs no problem. Not sure if Mecha Koopas have a bigger hitbox or not. I'm actually not busy at the moment, let me check...Okay, the problem isn't hitting them, it's the exploding they do after jumping once hit.
Moves that can set it off without taking damage:
Jab? (one time the MK did it's jump attack but exploded too far away to deal damage with that; couldn't replicate)
FTilt
DTilt
UTilt (facing away)
FSmash? (one time the MK walked UNDER me without stopping; couldn't replicate)
DSmash? (one time the MK walked THROUGH me without stopping; couldn't replicate)
USmash
NeutralB
DownB
Alternately you can just pick it up with A or any short hopped aerial sans UAir. Dash Attack picks it up from really far away and seems easier than pressing A which runs the risk of doing a Jab which is bad.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
As far as I understand here are the mechanics behind the Mecha koopa.What is bowser's best response to a Jr that likes to use Mecha Koopa and approach while walking behind it
Dealing with Koopa pretty much forces you to shield or jump, and from my experience, Jr has an easy time punishing both options on reaction. I've had the most luck with PS'ing the koopa and then running up and grabbing the jr, but that option gets very predictable very quick.
Any thoughts?
1. It is a grabbable item, either player can pick it up like any other item. This is one reason why being good at item grabbing is important for landing in this match up.
2. once you grab it, the explosion won't hurt you if you throw or drop the item, but the explosion from the timer still hurts.
3. If you shield it, then it can't hurt you until it reaches the edge and turns around, making pick ups much safer.
4. Deploying a mecha koopa is a fairly large commitment and can be easily punished.
5. Thrown mecha koopas hit your shield and then pass though instead of hitting it and exploding or vanishing like other projectiles would.
6. Hitting the koopa makes it behave as if it had made contact with someone normally.
So in general what works for me is either dash attack or sh fairing to pick up the item while producing a hitbox which covers both options that I had to deal with at once, or if Jr. is hanging back a little further then I'll just pick it up normally, usually shielding it first for good measure. Once you've shown this however, they will most likely start being a little more sparing with the use of this move and might try deploying it away from you then picking it up. If you're close enough when this happens then go for your punish, because they are basically just doing an long animation that has no immediate threat to you whatsoever because the mecha has to walk to the edge and turn around then come back before it can hit you or Jr. has to pick it up and throw it at you which can't happen if you send them flying first, and you might even get to pick the item up afterwards and use it for whatever you want.
Hope this helps!
TheGreatShal
Smash Cadet
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- Dec 1, 2014
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I'm always terrified to use DSmash, or not finding an good use for it, especially since I have whirling fortress which moves much quicker, and I don't ever feel as open if I miss. What are some good situations to use DSmash, or even if it's worth it to use?
you predicted well a roll.
It's not even worse it to use it, it only does 5% more than Up-B but doesn't the speed of it nor the utility.
You should be using only for hard reads or if you predicted well a roll.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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If you know they will roll from ledge then use it and they will scream obscenities if they are high on percent and then they die.
And on low percent you can sometimes get 2 dsmashes off.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
You can follow a ledge trump with it, generally if the character goes low for a ledge grab, and some characters will have trouble getting past it otherwise. If they lack disjointed hitboxes, they won't have an easy time challenging it either. A yoshi tried to Fair me out of Dsmash from offstage yesterday, only to get sucked in and K.O'd for the game. It's not an easy tool to use but it does have it's niche uses.