Bowser recovery mix up suggestions

[tasteless gentleman]

So i was thinking about recovery mix ups for bowser and honestly all he has a hard input claw stall, but ultimately if that Up B is needed, Bowser has a linear, slow, pretty vulnerable recovery. Which would be okay if many characters were the same or if Bowser's recovery reached an okay distance (vertically or horizontally).

I had a decent sit down and thought How could Bowser's recovery be buffed to be Mixed up more without actually buffing it's distance.

Heres my thoughs and ideas that i came up with.

1. Make Up B (arieal version only) Double jump cancellable
2. Make Up B (arieal version only) cancellable into Bowser bomb, Klaw, Flame And MAYBE Fair,bair, ect (This would allow for safer landings and give more mix ups)
3. A successful Klaw Grab with regain his Up B (maybe double jump too) And Klaw stall with allow air dodge Usable After Up B.

I Dont think this really buffs bowsers distance too much but he definately gains alot of mix ups and becomes more of a threat even with his sitting duck recovery.

EDIT

Actually How would we feel about if bowser didn't go into that sitting duck special fall instead? Bowser is heavy but kind of floaty and could maybe use this to his advantage.

 

[Duplighost]

I like where you are going with this, but if you are considering making his recovery cancelable into other moves, it would only benefit him if he was either falling down onto an opponent, or approaching horizontally to an opponent (from a ledge).

Assuming he would not be able to use his Up B again after canceling it into an attack, if he were to use an attack to hit an opponent attempting to gimp him, he'd plummet straight down. His normal Up B would be ideal there with no cancel.

I feel the best buff would to make his Up B not have a fast fall animation. That way, he still has to use the entire recovery move, but once its animation ends he has the opportunity to use whatever move he pleases.

 

[G13_Flux]

a stall option would probably be the first place to start. however, seeing as how that might not fit into his kit atm without a rework of one of his specials/aerials,
giving his recovery more air mobilty, or the option to mash to go a bit higher would be the next best option imo. i dont think it would be a good idea to implement something that would let bowser cancel his aerial up b. bowser really needs a design that doesnt rely on crutches, and theyve done a decent job weening him down to a more acceptable design than he had in the past. if you give him a cancellation option out of his recovery, it really directly goes against the design goals of the pmdt, and furthers a crutchy playstyle.

there are certain characters at the moment that have recoveries with some sort of ability to act out of the up b, like lucario, GW, sonic, ROB, etc. however, sonic and GW are extremely light, lucario needs to have a charge saved in order to cancel, and robs recovery doesnt have a hitbox unless he throws out an attack.

overall, i think a more traditional approach is what bowser needs, i cant think of any way that some sort of funky cancel will be good for design and gameplay.

 

[shairn]

Cancelable air fortress sounds so unbelievably overpowered lmao.

Bowser has plenty of options coming back to mix up just fine.

 

[G13_Flux]

if bowsers neutral improved enough i could see them not touching his recovery. but i dont think that they will quite get his neutral game to be THAT good anytime soon. I think a good balance between the two would give bowser some more incentive to interact more, and create a more balanced character. theres a few things you can do off the bat to give him some slight buffs in neutral, and then also do a little something with his recovery.

i will say however, there might be some adjustments you could make to up b such that a cancellable grounded version might not be a bad idea. this would obviously include a rework of invincibility frames, as well as tweaks to other OOS options to properly compensate. but ive heard the idea be tossed out before and with the right tweaks i could see it working in a very beneficial way for design and balance alike.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

a stall option would probably be the first place to start. however, seeing as how that might not fit into his kit atm without a rework of one of his specials/aerials,
giving his recovery more air mobilty, or the option to mash to go a bit higher would be the next best option imo. i dont think it would be a good idea to implement something that would let bowser cancel his aerial up b. bowser really needs a design that doesnt rely on crutches, and theyve done a decent job weening him down to a more acceptable design than he had in the past. if you give him a cancellation option out of his recovery, it really directly goes against the design goals of the pmdt, and furthers a crutchy playstyle.

there are certain characters at the moment that have recoveries with some sort of ability to act out of the up b, like lucario, GW, sonic, ROB, etc. however, sonic and GW are extremely light, lucario needs to have a charge saved in order to cancel, and robs recovery doesnt have a hitbox unless he throws out an attack.

overall, i think a more traditional approach is what bowser needs, i cant think of any way that some sort of funky cancel will be good for design and gameplay.

He already has a very difficult klaw stall input and honestly it cancels all momentum forward so its hardly usable.

EDIT

Actually I think i like the no special fall better and maybe being able to mash it to go farther would definately add a mix up element to it.

Cancelable air fortress sounds so unbelievably overpowered lmao.

Bowser has plenty of options coming back to mix up just fine.

Can you name them? Once bowser is in free fall he is pretty much edge guard food.
If Bowser is too far all you have to do is grab ledge. No mix up options available.

If bowser is far enough to make it back but low, either go in and hit him with an air attack after he is in free fall (or charge a smash attack near ledge if it goes low and far enough.) No mix up options.

The only mix up is if bowser is really high i think?

EDIT

How about instead of cancellable, just no special fall?

I like where you are going with this, but if you are considering making his recovery cancelable into other moves, it would only benefit him if he was either falling down onto an opponent, or approaching horizontally to an opponent (from a ledge).

Assuming he would not be able to use his Up B again after canceling it into an attack, if he were to use an attack to hit an opponent attempting to gimp him, he'd plummet straight down. His normal Up B would be ideal there with no cancel.

I feel the best buff would to make his Up B not have a fast fall animation. That way, he still has to use the entire recovery move, but once its animation ends he has the opportunity to use whatever move he pleases.

If he grabs some one with klaw grab, he regains up B. That seems half way balanced.

 

[shairn]

Can you name them? Once bowser is in free fall he is pretty much edge guard food.
If Bowser is too far all you have to do is grab ledge. No mix up options available.

If bowser is far enough to make it back but low, either go in and hit him with an air attack after he is in free fall (or charge a smash attack near ledge if it goes low and far enough.) No mix up options.

The only mix up is if bowser is really high i think?

Bowser has more options than Falcon. Go high or low when close, mix-up with BB to get to the ledge quickly. You can fortress, fade back and grab the ledge around their edge guard attempt. You can always bait something out when you're close to the ledge and his game there is just fine.

The further you are, the fewer options you have. That's fine. That's how it should be.

Removing special fall from his upB would be interesting, but I still think it'd be too good and goes against the idea that the further you are, the fewer options you have for coming back.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser has more options than Falcon. Go high or low when close, mix-up with BB to get to the ledge quickly. You can fortress, fade back and grab the ledge around their edge guard attempt. You can always bait something out when you're close to the ledge and his game there is just fine.

The further you are, the fewer options you have. That's fine. That's how it should be.

Removing special fall from his upB would be interesting, but I still think it'd be too good and goes against the idea that the further you are, the fewer options you have for coming back.

I feel like falcon can get away with certain things though and in some cases the further out he is can get have more options.

He has a really high air mobility and high vertical (higher than bowser anyway) and can escape certain situations.
If timed right falcon can use grab priority and eat traded hits.
Down B resets his double jump which prolongs his life.
Plus he has a very threatening Side B recovery.

Plus falcon is HEAVY and Fast falling so he doesn't seem to be pushed very far back and if he does get pushed back far hes often high enough to Down B.


Bowser doesnt really have anything. Yea if he is close to the ledge he can mix it up and further out he can Klaw Stall (but it sucks and has hard inputs that kill you if you fail). But good air attack with kickback or low smash attack and bowser is dead (or ledge grab)


But No special fall may not be as mitigating as originally thought.

 

[G13_Flux]

idk i think falcon has better mix up options atm. his vertical recovery is undoubtedly better, and he has two recovery option, both with decent protective attributes. his up b has a lot of aerial mobility that hes able to apply to it to to really vary how he gets himself onstage or to the ledge.

the biggest thing that bowsers recovery has atm is that it has pretty low lag compared to most recoveries when landing on stage. however, its still not lagless enough that it cant be punished, because him lading on stage is telegraphed. his up b doesnt have the same ability to stall out and change directions like certain other recoveries of comparable nature (aka DKs). it does have decent hitboxes on the sides, but again, its mostly too telegraphed. i certainly agree that bowsers recovery is underpowered and should be touched somehow, but i just want to see them do it right and not implement some jank mechanic for it. bowser is slowly moving away from the jank train and gradually accquiring better and better designs, so like i said, i think he just needs something more traditional for it.

i personally think that neutral b is one of those moves that could use a rework. maybe having some kind of vertical momentum stalling capability on it (coupled with putting out some kind of projectile) could be useful, and be all that he needs to compliment his current up b.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

idk i think falcon has better mix up options atm. his vertical recovery is undoubtedly better, and he has two recovery option, both with decent protective attributes. his up b has a lot of aerial mobility that hes able to apply to it to to really vary how he gets himself onstage or to the ledge.

the biggest thing that bowsers recovery has atm is that it has pretty low lag compared to most recoveries when landing on stage. however, its still not lagless enough that it cant be punished, because him lading on stage is telegraphed. his up b doesnt have the same ability to stall out and change directions like certain other recoveries of comparable nature (aka DKs). it does have decent hitboxes on the sides, but again, its mostly too telegraphed. i certainly agree that bowsers recovery is underpowered and should be touched somehow, but i just want to see them do it right and not implement some jank mechanic for it. bowser is slowly moving away from the jank train and gradually accquiring better and better designs, so like i said, i think he just needs something more traditional for it.

i personally think that neutral b is one of those moves that could use a rework. maybe having some kind of vertical momentum stalling capability on it (coupled with putting out some kind of projectile) could be useful, and be all that he needs to compliment his current up b.

Like how mewtwo's charge shot shoots mewtwo backwards when in the air? I think a B reverse charge shot is a mix up and it can serve as a defensive tool. I cant tell you how many times i been hit like an idiot guarding a mewtwo or samus.

 

[G13_Flux]

Like how mewtwo's charge shot shoots mewtwo backwards when in the air? I think a B reverse charge shot is a mix up and it can serve as a defensive tool. I cant tell you how many times i been hit like an idiot guarding a mewtwo or samus.

could be. any kind of stall/momentum change will help, especially in conjunction with a projectile. KK does do that now but its not really effective because of its lag and bowsers inability to cover any relevant space with it to keep him safe. like i said, i do think that fire breath needs some kind of rework. however, i dont think it needs to be something that has a land cancel or anything like that. just something to help promote interaction in neutral and help resolve the campy opponent issue. since it shouldnt need to have a land cancel imo (i.e he shouldn't need it as a crutch approach option) it leaves you free to adjust its aerial properties a bit more to serve other purposes, and having the projectile stall his momentum might not be a bad way to go. maybe it even shoots at a angle below him. im sure the properties of the projectiles speed/angle/KB curve/start up/end lag etc. can be adjusted to make this serve a fair purpose while still being a good design decision with a level of thought required to use it properly. what im really imagining is some kind of fireball or thrown shell to fit in with bowsers persona in the mario games.

i think if you couple this with a few frame data adjustmentson other attributes and attacks (including some minor nerf tweaks, which ive discussed in the other thread) you simultaneously resolve many of his neutral game issues, help his recovery, and retain some weaknesses that are central to the character (big target, generally easy to combo, still only a modest recovery, higher commitment attacks, etc.)

 

[tasteless gentleman]

could be. any kind of stall/momentum change will help, especially in conjunction with a projectile. KK does do that now but its not really effective because of its lag and bowsers inability to cover any relevant space with it to keep him safe. like i said, i do think that fire breath needs some kind of rework. however, i dont think it needs to be something that has a land cancel or anything like that. just something to help promote interaction in neutral and help resolve the campy opponent issue. since it shouldnt need to have a land cancel imo (i.e he shouldn't need it as a crutch approach option) it leaves you free to adjust its aerial properties a bit more to serve other purposes, and having the projectile stall his momentum might not be a bad way to go. maybe it even shoots at a angle below him. im sure the properties of the projectiles speed/angle/KB curve/start up/end lag etc. can be adjusted to make this serve a fair purpose while still being a good design decision with a level of thought required to use it properly. what im really imagining is some kind of fireball or thrown shell to fit in with bowsers persona in the mario games.

i think if you couple this with a few frame data adjustmentson other attributes and attacks (including some minor nerf tweaks, which ive discussed in the other thread) you simultaneously resolve many of his neutral game issues, help his recovery, and retain some weaknesses that are central to the character (big target, generally easy to combo, still only a modest recovery, higher commitment attacks, etc.)

I hate the Current KK stall. Its inputs are hard (not hard enough to do consistently) and you can fail them in about 4 different ways and they all put you in a much worse spot and to top it off, when you do successfully do it, you gain no momentum or distance. You just hang out in the air a little longer and then fall again.

So Are you suggesting that firebreath also double as a recovery mix up? That would be interesting if you can curve it (maybe aim it downward and the power will "push" bowser upward/at and angle or something?

what im really imagining is some kind of fireball or thrown shell to fit in with bowsers persona in the mario games.

Give him An AGT, Some RNG, and some frame data and I'll abuse this until the cows come home

 

[shairn]

Inb4 Bowser's nB is a koopa shellpull

 

[RosalinaSama]

just give him flying slam as the klaw uthrow problem solved

 

[tasteless gentleman]

just give him flying slam as the klaw uthrow problem solved

How? So People can abuse the insanely easy suicide move like it was in brawl?

Inb4 Bowser's nB is a koopa shellpull

If Bowser had some good throw frame data i would maybe like this lol. I mean it technically fixes recovery issues and some neutral issues. *shrugs* I think i would need to see this in action.

 

[RosalinaSama]

How? So People can abuse the insanely easy suicide move like it was in brawl?

ganondorf still has his...

 

[shairn]

Why would you flying slam when you can KK dthrow? Pretty sure it kills anywhere the flying slam would, with the added benefit that you get to live on and taunt your opponent.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Agreed lol but let's stay on topic guys, anything about his neutral or flying slam should go on to another thread