Bowser Jr brings his toys back for Smash! (And the Koopalings too)

[WiiRool]

Anyone else doubting that this would actually work at higher percentages? Fighters can potentially air dodge to avoid the hammer swing, assuming that they can air dodge the instant they can be controlled again.

And of course, this is a fighter dependent ordeal, so it may be harder to pull off against floaty fighters.

With both up throw and up special apparently having their speed buffed, this obviously fake combo immediately came to mind.
Still though, I have many a doubts! That's a lot of frames that need to be trimmed off of two moves to make this work.

 

[UberMadman]

So has anyone else noticed that the Bowser Jr. stock icon for Ultimate is broken in bios?











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[LinkisPink]

So jr got all around nerfs for ultimate also i found the koopaling skins for anyone wanting them or want them for the stock ico

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ns

so despite these nerfs and observations. i refuse to stop maining Wendy. the koopalings were the only character I wanted and as long as they’re in smash bros I will continue to improve and play them pic.twitter.com/ACtEfhtxxo

— IZ| Tra$h Koopa God (@TraShKoopaGod) November 3, 2018

 

[Kijiickimana]

So jr got all around nerfs for ultimate also i found the koopaling skins for anyone wanting them or want them for the stock ico

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ns

so despite these nerfs and observations. i refuse to stop maining Wendy. the koopalings were the only character I wanted and as long as they’re in smash bros I will continue to improve and play them pic.twitter.com/ACtEfhtxxo

— IZ| Tra$h Koopa God (@TraShKoopaGod) November 3, 2018

Seriously these nerfs are ridiculous. I played Jr for years in smash 4 and managed to make it work even though he is very clearly not a good character. But this is just sad. Why would you nerf a character who wasn't good in the first place?

 

[WiiRool]

Bowser Jr. Mains unite!
When the game drops, let's all lose gloriously on elite mode so that the Smash Team will buff our character to greatness!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Bowser Jr. Mains unite!
When the game drops, let's all lose gloriously on elite mode so that the Smash Team will buff our character to greatness!

I wouldn't bet on it. Smash 3DS / Wii U never gave Dedede any kind of respect, even when he desperately needed buffs.

 

[Kijiickimana]

Bowser Jr. Mains unite!
When the game drops, let's all lose gloriously on elite mode so that the Smash Team will buff our character to greatness!

Or... we can try to make him work out, and if it doesn't work then we will lose a lot lol. Seriously though this is a bummer. Every person in my discord is bragging about all of their buffs and I'm just here like "dafuq?"

 

[meleebrawler]

From what I can see there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with Jr., it's just that parts of his kit were undertuned in 4. None of the changes mentioned reference damage changes, which shouldn't be difficult to compare since all the matches have been items on.

 

[Kijiickimana]

From what I can see there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with Jr., it's just that parts of his kit were undertuned in 4. None of the changes mentioned reference damage changes, which shouldn't be difficult to compare since all the matches have been items on.

First of all, nice profile pic!

From what we have seen so far, there are so many things that are just fundamentally wrong with the Ultimate version of Jr.:

1. I'm not sure if it was changed, but in the E3 demo, you couldn't run through the opponents shield. This also applied to Foxes side B. I haven't personally seen it, but I would assume that Bowser Jr. can no longer go through the opponents shield with side B, which is a pretty significant nerf.
2. Mechakoopa (MK) is horribly unbalanced from what we have seen. Firstly, MK no longer bounces, which isn't too bad, but it will make some setups harder to pull off. But then we start looking at the bad changes. MK now just drops in front of the opponent when they shield it. It no longer goes through shield. Now all the opponent needs to do is shield and they can very easily pick up the MK. Another huge nerf to the MK is that picking it up twice no longer gives you immunity to its blast. This nerf just discourages creative setups.
3. Hitboxes for almost every move have been reduced. Up tilt, Side tilt, Down tilt, Up smash, Up B hammer swing, and grabs have noticeably less range. Up B hammer swing was already difficult to land consistently, so this just hurts.
4. Forward Smash now has more ending lag. This change makes no sense. In patch 1.1.4 of Smash Wii U, Sakurai changed this move to have less end lag, so now he is adding the end lag back? This was the only semi-safe kill option we had in smash 4 because if the low end lag, so now we really don't have much.
5. Throws don't string into anything, although they didn't really lead to any combos in smash 4 so this doesn't affect us too much. The most you could get is down throw dash attack at very low percents and that's only if your opponent was brain dead.

Let's look at the very few positives though:

1. Jumping out of side B no longer eats all of your jumps. You can now side b, jump out of it, and double jump. If you were good at managing jumps in smash 4, then this really doesn't matter all too much.
2. Jab is more reliable, and kills at 130% on ledge. But killing at 130% at ledge isn't that great if you think about it. This means you have to punish people on ledge with jab and they have to be already at a pretty high percent just to get a kill. Back throw kills at ledge at 160%. Again, this isn't that good compared to other characters kill options.
3. There is an ending lag buff that every character got.

I really want to continue on with this character. He has so many movement options and he is always super fun to play, regardless of win or loss. We can only hope that the first balance patch in February helps us out.

I know there aren't many Jr. mains out there, but for the few who check this thread, would you guys want to make a discord server for the Jr. mains? We could share new techs and combos to try to make this character more viable than he was in smash 4.

 

[meleebrawler]

First of all, nice profile pic!

From what we have seen so far, there are so many things that are just fundamentally wrong with the Ultimate version of Jr.:

1. I'm not sure if it was changed, but in the E3 demo, you couldn't run through the opponents shield. This also applied to Foxes side B. I haven't personally seen it, but I would assume that Bowser Jr. can no longer go through the opponents shield with side B, which is a pretty significant nerf.
2. Mechakoopa (MK) is horribly unbalanced from what we have seen. Firstly, MK no longer bounces, which isn't too bad, but it will make some setups harder to pull off. But then we start looking at the bad changes. MK now just drops in front of the opponent when they shield it. It no longer goes through shield. Now all the opponent needs to do is shield and they can very easily pick up the MK. Another huge nerf to the MK is that picking it up twice no longer gives you immunity to its blast. This nerf just discourages creative setups.
3. Hitboxes for almost every move have been reduced. Up tilt, Side tilt, Down tilt, Up smash, Up B hammer swing, and grabs have noticeably less range. Up B hammer swing was already difficult to land consistently, so this just hurts.
4. Forward Smash now has more ending lag. This change makes no sense. In patch 1.1.4 of Smash Wii U, Sakurai changed this move to have less end lag, so now he is adding the end lag back? This was the only semi-safe kill option we had in smash 4 because if the low end lag, so now we really don't have much.
5. Throws don't string into anything, although they didn't really lead to any combos in smash 4 so this doesn't affect us too much. The most you could get is down throw dash attack at very low percents and that's only if your opponent was brain dead.

Let's look at the very few positives though:

1. Jumping out of side B no longer eats all of your jumps. You can now side b, jump out of it, and double jump. If you were good at managing jumps in smash 4, then this really doesn't matter all too much.
2. Jab is more reliable, and kills at 130% on ledge. But killing at 130% at ledge isn't that great if you think about it. This means you have to punish people on ledge with jab and they have to be already at a pretty high percent just to get a kill. Back throw kills at ledge at 160%. Again, this isn't that good compared to other characters kill options.
3. There is an ending lag buff that every character got.

I really want to continue on with this character. He has so many movement options and he is always super fun to play, regardless of win or loss. We can only hope that the first balance patch in February helps us out.

I know there aren't many Jr. mains out there, but for the few who check this thread, would you guys want to make a discord server for the Jr. mains? We could share new techs and combos to try to make this character more viable than he was in smash 4.

Love how you start by nothing things that we've seen, then open with something with no visual proof. There are still plenty of specials that can travel through opponents shielding, and just because one character's side b doesn't, doesn't mean all others won't.

It was really easy to shield and pick up Mechakoopas in 4 already. The changes say it explodes on contact with shield, does that mean the expiry self-destruct or the on-hit jump-and-explode? Either way, they're just not meant to be left on their own to attack in neutral. And what about the cannon? Wasn't that noted to have less lag than before?

I'll gladly take a small range nerf on grab in exchange for it being less laggy, especially when most others became MORE laggy. This is really just bringing him in line with standard grabs. As for the rest of the moves, I'd withhold judgement until the full extent of their changes are revealed. It was also noted that the Abandon Ship explosion might have less knockback, which could make comboing into the swing easier?

 

[Kijiickimana]

Love how you start by nothing things that we've seen, then open with something with no visual proof. There are still plenty of specials that can travel through opponents shielding, and just because one character's side b doesn't, doesn't mean all others won't.

It was really easy to shield and pick up Mechakoopas in 4 already. The changes say it explodes on contact with shield, does that mean the expiry self-destruct or the on-hit jump-and-explode? Either way, they're just not meant to be left on their own to attack in neutral. And what about the cannon? Wasn't that noted to have less lag than before?

I'll gladly take a small range nerf on grab in exchange for it being less laggy, especially when most others became MORE laggy. This is really just bringing him in line with standard grabs. As for the rest of the moves, I'd withhold judgement until the full extent of their changes are revealed. It was also noted that the Abandon Ship explosion might have less knockback, which could make comboing into the swing easier?

https://twitter.com/Tropped
Visual proof for the changes. I'm not sure if there is a side B that stops on the shield or not.

Yes cannon has less lag, but that doesn't mean it's useful now lol. Less lag on grab is good, but considering the range on the grab in smash 4, less range just makes it useless.

Honestly we are just going to have to wait until the game comes out to see if these changes are really as bad as they seem. I hope they aren't as bad, but I am getting worried.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

From what I can see there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with Jr., it's just that parts of his kit were undertuned in 4. None of the changes mentioned reference damage changes, which shouldn't be difficult to compare since all the matches have been items on.

Stale moves would have to be turned off to know if there are any changes to Bowser Jr.'s damage taken multipliers. In Smash 3DS / Wii U, hitting Bowser Jr. dealt 1.15x damage, while hitting the Koopa Clown Car dealt 0.88x damage.

Training is probably the only good place to figure all this out, considering that 1-on-1 matches increase the amount of damage that fighters can deal.

 

[meleebrawler]

https://twitter.com/Tropped
Visual proof for the changes. I'm not sure if there is a side B that stops on the shield or not.

Yes cannon has less lag, but that doesn't mean it's useful now lol. Less lag on grab is good, but considering the range on the grab in smash 4, less range just makes it useless.

Honestly we are just going to have to wait until the game comes out to see if these changes are really as bad as they seem. I hope they aren't as bad, but I am getting worried.

So I guess K. Rool's blunderbuss shot is bad too? And I don't really see the big deal with tilts having less reach when his jab already goes as far if not further and is more reliable now.

 

[Buddy002]

We have any word on further changes to Jr? Hopefully he'll be actually half decent this time around and still be fun like smash4

 

[Kijiickimana]

So I guess K. Rool's blunderbuss shot is bad too? And I don't really see the big deal with tilts having less reach when his jab already goes as far if not further and is more reliable now.

Are you really comparing Bowser Jr.s awful neutral B to K Rools? K Rool can angle his and suck people up to shoot them out with it, which can lead into combos. Jr.s is nowhere near as useful as that.
And while I rarely use forward tilt, up tilt is a useful tool to poke at your opponent, so seeing it have less range is pretty sad.

 

[meleebrawler]

Are you really comparing Bowser Jr.s awful neutral B to K Rools? K Rool can angle his and suck people up to shoot them out with it, which can lead into combos. Jr.s is nowhere near as useful as that.
And while I rarely use forward tilt, up tilt is a useful tool to poke at your opponent, so seeing it have less range is pretty sad.

He can't angle the shot unless it hits something right in front of him. The suction part is it's own thing entirely, hence why I specified shot. My point is they're both slow projectiles that can control space, and the only reason Jr.'s cannon was not very good at that was due to being too laggy. Let's see if a reduction to that improves it's utility, hm?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If the Clown Cannon is still too laggy with its start-up, I imagine that the fighters with reflectors could still use that start-up lag to their advantage.

 

[meleebrawler]

If the Clown Cannon is still too laggy with its start-up, I imagine that the fighters with reflectors could still use that start-up lag to their advantage.

Unless they're already in Jr.'s face when they do this, he shouldn't be getting hit by his own cannonballs due to how slowly they move and how they peter out after a certain amount of travel time.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Unless they're already in Jr.'s face when they do this, he shouldn't be getting hit by his own cannonballs due to how slowly they move and how they peter out after a certain amount of travel time.

Still, in the end, Bowser Jr. likely won't get anywhere with his projectile options if his opponent has a reflector. He'll have to resort to a close-ranged bout in such a scenario.

 

[meleebrawler]

Still, in the end, Bowser Jr. likely won't get anywhere with his projectile options if his opponent has a reflector. He'll have to resort to a close-ranged bout in such a scenario.

Exactly, if they commit to reflecting the cannonball or Mechakoopa he runs over them in his kart which can outspeed both of them, and if they defend against the kart it'll be difficult to punish him without also getting hit by the trailing projectile. Not all projectiles are meant for keepaway or stopping approaches.

 

[Kijiickimana]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g69xMBXHpJI

This seems promising

 

[meleebrawler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g69xMBXHpJI

This seems promising

I didn't really see much that's new for Jr. here, except how he hangs from a ledge without his car if he up bs to it. I guess the cannon has a higher speed and distance uncharged. Short-hopping with it seems like a good way to restrict the opponent's hopping.

 

[actor]

I didn't really see much that's new for Jr. here, except how he hangs from a ledge without his car if he up bs to it. I guess the cannon has a higher speed and distance uncharged. Short-hopping with it seems like a good way to restrict the opponent's hopping.

He seems like he has faster aerials.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It was really easy to shield and pick up Mechakoopas in 4 already. The changes say it explodes on contact with shield, does that mean the expiry self-destruct or the on-hit jump-and-explode? Either way, they're just not meant to be left on their own to attack in neutral. And what about the cannon? Wasn't that noted to have less lag than before?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4N1qEPk5M
1:19: Mechakoopas that walk into a shield do not explode, and lie on the ground for a few seconds before disappearing. This essentially means it's not really that good at stage control. (Or it still could be. I'm not a competitive player so my input doesn't count for much in this regard.)

EDIT: Looking at another match, I retract this opinion. It has good stage control, just not by itself. (Which is probably the point.)

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Updating a dead thread. So, it seems B. Junior still has a really good combo game. If an opponent is above Jr he can rack up and easy 20-40 percent with up air alone, and it seems very hard to escape even considering air dodge. One combo does not a good character make, but I believe it's a start.

 

[Sonnet]

Updating a dead thread. So, it seems B. Junior still has a really good combo game. If an opponent is above Jr he can rack up and easy 20-40 percent with up air alone, and it seems very hard to escape even considering air dodge. One combo does not a good character make, but I believe it's a start.

It's a start, but as I stated before in another thread, the changes to knockback in Ultimate neutered a LOT of his finer details. Some include:

-Can no longer combo uAir from kart after 40-50%. This was the go-to follow up option for anything other than low% in Smash 4, and was even a kill combo at super high percents. Now, connecting with kart from mid-high% yields no guaranteed follow ups, aside from upB if they're within the correct range for a kill.
-Can no longer combo dair into fair/bair in mid%. This was another cute little combo that I found myself using a lot in 4 to rack up some easy damage. Since our opponents fly away so fast now, however, it only seems to work if your opponent is somewhere in between 25 and 40%.
-While still possible, following up out of a mechakoopa blast is harder and eliminates a few nifty options. If you're in the right place at the right time, you can still follow up a blast with an aerial. However, because of the changes to the blast trajectory and knockback speed in general, it's borderline impossible to follow it up with an upB hammer to kill. Granted this isn't AS big of a deal as the other two, which were Bowjow's main combo starters in S4, but it removes a nifty kill option that acted as a reward for controlling the stage with MK.

Our main combo starters have been gutted with this new engine, so while our uAir strings still exist, it's not looking good for the koopalings overall IMO. I would venture to say (even though its early on) that his combo game is incredibly weak this time around.

bear in mind, this is coming from someone who spent no time with any other character on the Smash 4 roster.

 

[Rhys]

New jr player, what are my best options for killing?
Aside from smash attacks and off stage gimps how should I be trying to kill?

 

[MalanoMan]

Also a new BJR player. As someone with no prior knowledge of BJR before picking up ultimate here are my takeaways:

1. Down smash comes out quick and is pretty reliable for a KO + 100%.
2. Fair and Bair are the ****. I use these to get off stage KOs.
3. Uair is nice.
3. Fsmash is good if you can land it. Slow to come out. See comments in next post below.
4. Edge guard with neutral b? Idk thats just how I play. The fact that you can charge your neutral b also helps mix things up.

Sorry I'm not really a good resource to talk to about this. Just giving my observations from a few hours playing with him.

 

[Rhys]

Also a new BJR player. As someone with no prior knowledge of BJR before picking up ultimate here are my takeaways:

1. Down smash comes out quick and is pretty reliable for a KO + 100%.
2. Fair and Bair are the ****. I use these to get off stage KOs.
3. Uair is nice.
3. Fsmash is good if you can land it. Slow to come out.
4. Edge guard with neutral b? Idk thats just how I play. The fact that you can charge your neutral b also helps mix things up.

Sorry I'm not really a good resource to talk to about this. Just giving my observations from a few hours playing with him.

No that’s great, thank you. I had just been doing smash attacks wildly until now so any tips are perfect

 

[MalanoMan]

No that’s great, thank you. I had just been doing smash attacks wildly until now so any tips are perfect

I played more BJR last night and have some more feedback:
1. I was kinda wrong about Fsmash. Its not really that slow, but its very punishable.
2. The neutral b is really cool because I like to shoot it after holding it down different amounts and it causes the cannonball to travel at different speeds which can really throw off your opponent.
3. Dair is pretty good too, but the hitbox is kinda small so I think its kinda punishable.
4. I also really like the utility of his up special. Idk if you noticed yet, but his mechakoopa falls and explodes after he ejects, so it provides a nice opportunity to catch your opponent off guard and score some %.

 

[Dcas]

I played more BJR last night and have some more feedback:
1. I was kinda wrong about Fsmash. Its not really that slow, but its very punishable.
2. The neutral b is really cool because I like to shoot it after holding it down different amounts and it causes the cannonball to travel at different speeds which can really throw off your opponent.
3. Dair is pretty good too, but the hitbox is kinda small so I think its kinda punishable.
4. I also really like the utility of his up special. Idk if you noticed yet, but his mechakoopa falls and explodes after he ejects, so it provides a nice opportunity to catch your opponent off guard and score some %.

Ive been maining bjr since smash 4, fsmash is unpunishable. Unless its a very fast character that crosses you up or lands over you, otherwise on shield is ultra safe and it goes out very fast after last hit, if you angle it upwards it can cover all aerial approaches, one of the best toolts of bjr.

dashing uptilt is excelent tool in neutral since it covers a lot of options, dashing dtilt for smaller characters. Ironically, with the airdodge mechanics, bjr is deadly offstage, he can go deep and far with fair, bair, neutral B and just go back to stage with side b and up b, ledge trapping is great with fsmash or mechakoopa.

Thing is , bjr still struggles vs fast characters since he still has problems getting out of pressure, upsmash works very well as OoS. Another problem is even tho bjr aerials are excelent his mobility is not, securing kills is pretty hard once your opponent knows the MU since bjr has no confirms so one gotta work EXTRA hard to get those kills.

Overall i feel bjr is buffed indeed, but his neutral is still meh at best since a player that knows the MU will shutdown all your options. But i think his chances are way better than smash 4 and he is a solid midtier that works pretty well vs certain MU.

 

[MalanoMan]

Thank you for correcting me and providing all the other info! Very useful.

 

[Sonnet]

New jr player, what are my best options for killing?
Aside from smash attacks and off stage gimps how should I be trying to kill?

Also a new BJR player. As someone with no prior knowledge of BJR before picking up ultimate here are my takeaways:

1. Down smash comes out quick and is pretty reliable for a KO + 100%.
2. Fair and Bair are the ****. I use these to get off stage KOs.
3. Uair is nice.
3. Fsmash is good if you can land it. Slow to come out. See comments in next post below.
4. Edge guard with neutral b? Idk thats just how I play. The fact that you can charge your neutral b also helps mix things up.

Sorry I'm not really a good resource to talk to about this. Just giving my observations from a few hours playing with him.

Dcas put it best- fsmash is a fantastic move that comes out quick and isn't punishable if you use it correctly. In some cases, it can even be used to bait for a dtilt to regain stage control. Some players will try to dash in right after fsmash ends, but you have plenty of time to get dtilt out there to maintain your advantage.

uSmash comes out much faster in this game (feels like) and is commonly used if your opponent hits your shield, or as an answer to either standard or jumping recovery from the ledge. This is going to be a common kill option for you if your opponent likes to throw aerials into your shield.

dSmash isn't really that useful, at least from my experience. I don't think I've ever used it for a kill- too slow and easily punishable.

bair kills on its own in the higher percents, and can be used as a spacing tool to keep your opponent at bay. If they're trying to approach at higher percents, this is something to fish for, 100%. Very common way to kill with this character.

since bjr has no confirms

I'd also like to point out that this isn't entirely true. Junior still has his kart to upB confirm, which is your go-to kart followup when opponents are flirting with kill%. The confirmed range is different for every character depending on their weight, which is something you'll come to learn in time.

 

[Rhys]

Thanks guys, massive help

 

[Rainami]

I was viewing some early tier lists today and although I was happy to find most of them placing jigglypuff above bottom tier, I was dissapointed to see how often jr. was listed as the worst character in the game. It would be easier to live with the fact that he's bad if he was at least not the very worst character in the game, so hopefully when we get some accurate tier lists he'll be a bit higher. All I want is to go one smash game without one of my mains being the absolute bottom of the barrel.

 

[Dcas]

I was viewing some early tier lists today and although I was happy to find most of them placing jigglypuff above bottom tier, I was dissapointed to see how often jr. was listed as the worst character in the game. It would be easier to live with the fact that he's bad if he was at least not the very worst character in the game, so hopefully when we get some accurate tier lists he'll be a bit higher. All I want is to go one smash game without one of my mains being the absolute bottom of the barrel.

Well something we can say for sure is that bjr wont be high tier, theres no way. Even if you lab a lot and get a lot, some higher placement characters will destroy bjr, he wins a lot since the MU is very weird and we can abuse that, on the other hand i really dont think he is the worst in a world with little mac but i really doubt bjr will be "trash".

 

[Skoodge]

I agree with Rainami, I really disagree with them being the worst in the game, or even that low in general. They have some bad matchups, like fast zoners, or characters with certain aerial angles being hard to work around, but I think they have decent common matchups with other characters, especially Marth/Lucina/Roy/Chrom, because of fair and bair primarily (and mechakoopa to limit options).

They have some significant weaknesses that prevent them from being universally good, but I think I will continue to grind this character out, I seem to be doing fine with them in Elite Smash. So much of their kit does not seem like "trash" to me, a lot of moves are safe on shield (or setup into a 50/50), or force airdodge, which leads to good options. I haven't watched the VODs, but I noticed on the results that a BJR/koopaling player got 17th at the recent SoCal tourney iirc, which is a good.

I was going to make a whole thread to share some of my thoughts, and I might still do so, because I think people are sleeping on this character.