Bowser and the Suicide Clause

[Zigsta]

Hey everyone,

This thread's been a long time coming--I apologize for the delay Truth is, my writing partner and I recently secured a manager, and we're rapidly developing a pitch along with a producer with the intent to go out to studios with our pitch next month. This is the next step to make our dreams of writing animation full time come true. Needless to say, Smash--and this thread--have taken a backseat as of late.

Now that THAT'S out of the way, there is one thing I'd like to clarify before I delve any further here. This thread is NOTHING personal against either Nyani, Chibo, or whoever were the Apex TOs. My intention with this thread is to bring an important issue to peoples' attention--an issue that I feel is grossly under-informed. I'm a nice guy who doesn't talk trash about people behind their backs--so please do not derail the intentions of this thread. Frankly, the at times childish drama of the Smash community was one of the factors that led to me stop playing Brawl competitively several years ago. Anyone who intentionally derails this thread with pointless drama and does not contribute meaningfully to the conversation will be dealt with.

Also, please don't try to educate me on how to play Bowser. If your name isn't Zigsta, odds are I've put a lot more time in my character than you have.

MOVING RIGHT ALONG THEN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

Hi! My name is Zigsta. (I feel like there's a lot of new people in the Smash 4 scene, so I figured I'd introduce myself quickly.) I made a name for myself as one of the premiere Bowser players in Brawl, largely due to the fact that I was born in Louisiana, went to college in Texas, and moved to California after graduation--which all led to me naturally travelling and playing a wide variety of players. Given the fact that the other notable Bowsers in Brawl practically never traveled to tournaments (MrEh in Hawaii, Limit in NY, KingKong in Canada, and Uncle in the Carolinas), I quickly became the face of Brawl Bowser. It's still an honor to me to this day when people tell me that when they see Bowser they think of me, or an aspect of Bowser's personality reminds them of my personality. To know that me simply being me embodies the very same character I play is a beautiful and humbling thing. He's a character I love through and through, and without Bowser, I likely wouldn't have stayed with the competitive Smash scene.

I recently attended Apex 2015. Going to Apex was always a goal of mine. I had actually planned on attending Apex years ago--twice--with different things coming up both times. The first time my best friend's wedding (where I stood as the best man) was moved up a week to Apex weekend, and the second time I decided to call it quits several months prior. With Bowser being vastly improved from Brawl (but not as improved as most people incorrectly assumed when the game first came out--Bowser most noticeably misses his decreased jab and Klaw ranges along with Klaw's lack of grab armor), I felt like Apex 2015 was a perfect way to see how my Bowser stacked up against emerging playstyles from all over the world. I was completely stoked. I was given the third seed in my pool, with FOW and Nyani being ranked above me. I didn't just feel good about my odds. I felt DAMN GOOD. Both Smashers use characters who don't take massive dumps on Bowser. My body was ready.

Nyani (who was very kind throughout our set, often complimenting me on moves I used that she wasn't expecting) and I played in winners semis, with the winner moving on to face FOW. I won a commanding game one against her Mario. Game two she went Pit (and I have to sidebar here to say I always take it as the highest form of compliment when someone changes characters on me in a tournament set), and Nyani squeaked out a very close win. Game three I counterpick Town and City (one of my personal favorites as Bowser thanks to the variety of high platforms to maneuver Bowser's massive blindspot), and at this point I've definitely figured out Nyani's Pit's style. We ultimately end up on our last stock, with me at about 30% and Nyani at about 130%.

At this point I need to illustrate an important part of competitive Bowser strategy that a lot of players--even competitive ones--don't realize is intentional, especially if they didn't have a competent Bowser to practice with (since there weren't many in Brawl sadly). As a Bowser player, my goal is to make you shield more often than usual. The number one way to make someone sit in their shield is to make them scared of what you're going to do next. And the two biggest ways I scare opponents are A) throw out big, strong hitboxes with high amounts of knockback or B) abuse jab cancel mixups, making it so that my opponent doesn't know which followup is coming next. As Bowser, I WANT to force my opponent closer and closer to the ledge with these two aforementioned tactics...and THEN I want them to shield when they realize they have no more stage to run. As soon as I see someone shielding by the ledge--again, all based on me using tactics to make them scared and pinning them in a corner--I go for a Koopa Klaw (technically Flying Slam, but that's just an awful name) since it's a command grab that goes through shield. In Brawl, both Bowser and his opponent always have some degree of control over the direction of Klaw after the Klaw has landed; however, it's entirely percentage dependent. Whoever has the lower percent has the most degree of control, and this degree of control is further exaggerated the larger the difference in percentage is between Bowser and the opponent. And if I go offstage, the end result is what's called a Koopacide.

In Brawl, the winner of the Koopacide was port dependent. In Smash 4, Bowser always won, regardless of port, prior to the "balance patch." In both Brawl and Smash 4, Bowser could actually jump out of the Koopacide by inputting a jump just as he hits the blastzone. This makes it in Brawl so that Bowser always wins by Koopacide regardless of port--as long as the Bowser is competent enough in his input timing. Jumping out was far easier in Smash 3DS.

After the "balance patch," though, Bowser dies first (even though his body is on top of the opponent...) on MOST stages. Some stages the game actually goes to Sudden Death, which most people don't even realize. In fact, I was once even told by a TO that he didn't believe me!! Try it for yourself--go into Training Mode, set a CPU to JUMP, and Koopacide. If you're on a stage where Bowser dies first, your opponent will jump out. If you're on a stage where the game goes to Sudden Death, you'll go to Sudden Death. I've put the full list of stages (albeit only ones that are used in tournaments) in the collapsed box below:

Spoiler

Normal Stage Sudden Death
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Custom Stages (wont be used, but thought it would be nice to know)
Duck Hunt

Normal Stage Bowser Dies First
Battlefield
Town and City
Skyloft
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U
Lylat
Town and City
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Omega Stage Sudden Death
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Mario Circuit
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Drive
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Great Cave Offensive
Orbital Gate Assault
Mario Galaxy
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle
Smashville
Duck Hunt

Omega Stage Bowser DIes First
Skyloft
Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinks
Hyrule Temple
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Onett
Coliseum
Castle Seige
Gamer
Town and City
Boxing Ring
Windy Hill Zone

OK, so now we're all caught up on the tactics used by competitive Bowsers as well as how Koopacide functions. Let's get back to game 3.

Nyani shields. I have 3 options in my mind:

A) Bowser Bomb.

B) Grab.

C) Klaw.

I actually scored the winning KO game 1 by Bowser Bombing Nyani's shield, causing it to break and her to fall to her doom. So I didn't want to do the same trick twice. Plus if she knew how to react to the move after seeing it earlier, I would have a lot of end lag, which could potentially allow her to hit me offstage, which would put me in a bad position against a Pit with high rage. Not good. Grab wouldn't have as much end lag as Bowser Bomb, but running up and grabbing someone shielding by the ledge is pretty much the most expected option.

I opt for Klaw because even if she spotdodges, Klaw has the least amount of lag out of the aforementioned three options. It's by far the less risky, end lag wise of the three.

I also went for Klaw specifically because--and this is the REAL kicker here--I was told by an Apex TO prior to the tournament (because I specifically asked) that Bowser was included in the Suicide Clause. So I went for the Koopacide and intentionally aimed offstage, knowing full well that Town and City results in a loss for Bowser on the results screen.
As the results came up, Chibo and Nyani jumped for joy, and Chibo whipped out the Apex ruleset on his phone and said Nyani wins because "Apex rules, Apex rules!!" I asked to have the TO I spoke with earlier brought over, who apparently wasn't there. Someone went and spoke with the almighty TOs who basically told me tough ****, you lose.

I was crushed. Devastated. I felt like I wasted my money and time by flying all the way to the other side of the country only to get cheesed by a clause in a ruleset--a clause that in other regions, including my region of SoCal (and my previous regions of Louisiana and Texas), includes Bowser. But too bad, because no one in charge seemed to have a care in the world.

My next round I played a Sonic main from Pennsylvania (I believe) named Phoenix Dark, and I really need to give a shoutout to this guy. My pool leader kept trying to get me to IMMEDIATELY play my next match in losers, but I insisted that I hear from a TO on whether I lost or not. Phoenix Dark expressed his condolences to me many times before we even began playing--and it was especially needed because frankly, the last thing I wanted to do at that point was play more Smash at this awful tournament. I barely win game 3.

Next round I don't even remember the name of the person I played, but I felt completely out of it. His Mario barely beat me game one. Then game two he shield in the middle of the stage, and I Klaw him when he's at 140% and I'm at 20%. I aim in the center of the stage towards the platform, and he aims offstage...and thanks to Smash 4 mechanics, sometimes the game randomly lets Bowser's opponent have more control over Klaw even when there's a vast chasm in percentages. I unplugged my controller and said "good game" even though my opponent AND his friends were laughing at me. Because he made a poor move (shielding) and I got punished for it.

So the long story is this--I won't EVER be going back to Apex, or to ANY tournament that doesn't include Bowser in the Suicide Clause.

Bowser isn't a popular character. He's more popular in this game, but less and less Smashers play him every day as they realize he takes a lot of work to use against the better characters in the game. (Looking at you, Sheik!!) And whenever there's an issue with an unpopular, rarer character, there's generally a lot less buzz regarding issues around said character.

I'm here to represent all other Bowser mains in saying that not including Bowser in the Suicide Clause is a MAJOR issue. What happened to me can happen to anyone. Period.

Tournament Organizers, please consider adding Bowser to your respective Suicide Clauses. Top Players, please recognize the atrocity of allowing the punisher of a carefully executed plan to be punished.



Please stand with me and lend me your support.

 

[DeLux]

How would you feel about tournaments that simply defer to the game and not have a suicide clause for any moves?

 

[8Bitman]

I honestly cannot believe this has to be a thread.

IF BOWSER SUICIDES WITH YOU, THAT IS YOUR FAULT FOR GETTING GRABBED BY A CHARACTER THAT ALREADY HAS A HARD TIME GETTING IN.

I will always give the win to Bowser at my events in Florida. The TOs that disagree are straight up stupid.

 

[smashmachine]

I also went for Klaw specifically because--and this is the REAL kicker here--I was told by an Apex TO prior to the tournament (because I specifically asked) that Bowser was included in the Suicide Clause. So I went for the Koopacide and intentionally aimed offstage, knowing full well that Town and City results in a loss for Bowser on the results screen.
As the results came up, Chibo and Nyani jumped for joy, and Chibo whipped out the Apex ruleset on his phone and said Nyani wins because "Apex rules, Apex rules!!" I asked to have the TO I spoke with earlier brought over, who apparently wasn't there. Someone went and spoke with the almighty TOs who basically told me tough ****, you lose.

Apex TOs are ****? shocking /s

 

[Zionaze]

If the Apex rules specifically stated that Bowsercide is allowed and nets as your win (which it did I believe) It should have been your win 100% And if they somehow changed the rules on the spot, either they let you have that win and say you can't do it again or admit their mistake. That's how I believe it should be anyways, their fault for not reading the rules :/

 

[LIQUID12A]

Question coming from a casual, but what's the Suicide Clause?

Apart from that, total bull for the rules to not be set in stone like that. My condolences.

 

[Xyro77]

If a move hits an opponent and he/she dies (and loses the game), the character who activated the killing blow should be rewarded with a win.

This is common sense and shouldn't be an issue.

 

[TheASDF]

While I'm not opposed to the idea, how do you deal with cases where the opponent jumps out of the move? Because in that way, the opponent managed to mash out of it, and you can't blame the game. The same deal with mashing out of Dedede's or Kirby's Swallow. (Which, granted, were both covered under the suicide clause at Apex - I can only imagine a situation where someone may or may not have mashed out in the nick of time to have been met with much confusion.) Also, Praxis's thread posted prior to Apex is relevant:

http://smashboards.com/threads/can-we-have-a-serious-discussion-on-suicide-moves.385785/

 

[DMG]

Suicide clauses should give the initiating player the win, if the maneuver results in a double KO / Sudden Death. If the move leads to a clear win or loss for either player on the result screen, I would accept what the screen says. That is what the rule should have always been, for any character with a relevant move.

That's not to take away from your situation though, since the rules were not 100% clear and TO's gave you conflicting info. That's just bad TO work and probably a horrible tournament experience.

 

[Sodo]

If the Apex rules specifically stated that Bowsercide is allowed and nets as your win (which it did I believe) It should have been your win 100% And if they somehow changed the rules on the spot, either they let you have that win and say you can't do it again or admit their mistake. That's how I believe it should be anyways, their fault for not reading the rules :/

The Apex 2015 rulset says as follows:

Self-Destruct Moves: If a match ends with the successful use of a character's self-destruct move, the player that initiated the self-destruct wins the match regardless of what the results screen states. Self-destruct moves include only Ganondorf's side-b, King Dedede's neutral-b, Wario's neutral-b, and Kirby's neutral-b.

For the record, I don't understand why these moves are allowed to initiate a win, but the Koopa Klaw can't. Either way, as unfortunate as it is, the rules clearly don't include Koopa Klaw as a self-destruct move. I'm curious as to whether this thread will help change that. Good luck OP.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

By the way, I personally messaged a TO before Apex, and tagged a few on a status in Facebook where I asked in the case Bowser does a suicide Side B, who wins, and they told me that they forgot to add that Bowser wins in the rules, but that he should take the win.

Really unfortunate.

 

[Sodo]

By the way, I personally messaged a TO before Apex, and tagged a few on a status in Facebook where I asked in the case Bowser does a suicide Side B, who wins, and they told me that they forgot to add that Bowser wins in the rules, but that he should take the win.

Really unfortunate.

Wait are you serious? How does this move get forgotten, especially when it's the one Nintendo specifically changed to bring up a losing Bowser screen? That is an alarming omission to the rules in my opinion. Obviously a lot goes into TOing, but you would think they'd have thought of that one.

 

[popsofctown]

Well, you know, obviously the big thing here is that the TO verbally gave you crappy information, which is really terrible, and goes onto a long list of really bad TO experiences.

As a matter of future policy for other tournaments, I just really can't support unnecessary contradiction of the results screen (unless the results screen is referring to a sudden death results). It's selectively buffing a character/strategy just because you want to and it's rough on new/confused players, rough on spectators, less gratifying to see the wrong character dancing, all sorts of things. With Bowser in particular you can have someone break out at the last second and double jump or use a special move and it could be unclear whether the suicide move went to completion.

You could give Bowser the win on those stages that go to sudden death, but I really dislike that kind of inconsistency. And geez I don't want to have to memorize that list of Omegas. It'd be better to rule that Bowser always loses. A 1 stock rematch would be more helpful to Bowser, but would increase the time a tournament takes.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That story is the story of the worst TOing I've ever heard about in my life. IMO suicide rules are bad rules and as @ DeLux suggested we should just respect whatever the result declared by the game is (if it says sudden death, it's the same as any other same frame KO, a situation that can be resolved in many responsible ways but that any competent ruleset will have a clear ruling for). That's not really what this story is about. This story is about being told factually incorrect information about tournament rules by a TO and having a bait and switch pulled on you after the fact. As small of a thing as it is, APEX really owes you a refund of your entry fee at least as you were not given a fair shot at winning the tournament like all of the other competitors.

You truly have my sympathy for this situation, but I do not agree with your proposed solution of us implementing a rule designed to improve Bowser (the rule to improve those other characters never should have been a rule to begin with; there is no port priority in 4). I do hope this calls attention to what a poor rule a suicide rule is in the first place; I feel that the existence of that rule at all will just inevitably create more terrible situations like this in the future.

 

[Tagxy]

I think it can at least be agreed that if there is a suicide clause (like them or not theyre popular), bowser should be included.

 

[Sodo]

I think it can at least be agreed that if there is a suicide clause (like them or not theyre popular), bowser should be included.

100% agreed. You can argue all day whether or not suicide clause should exist at all, but if we're going to have it and abide by it Koopa Klaw should be on the list.

 

[deepseadiva]

Man Zigsta you got destroyed, I am so sorry.

Definitely get your money back.

 

[Born in 1839...]

yeah, after reading this I was kinda angry because you couldn't take the win... horrible miscommunications with a ******** TO

 

[Cassius.]

I'm glad you finally made this thread. Zigsta and I talked for a bit about this at APEX, during and after the tournament. I still cannot believe this actually happened to him, and this is truly unfortunate. I was actually right behind him as he was playing Nyani and I still remember how confused I was when the whole situation went down.

As a long-time Bowser player (that Chris actually mentioned in the first paragraph of his story as being a hermit; thank you ;-; ), it was really odd to see that Bowser wasn't part of the clause. I just wish that a (larger) addendum was made prior to the tournament. This definitely ruined his experience, and I completely second his sentiments.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I was pretty sure Apex had an actual Suicide Clause (which is why Praxis made a thread), that story sounds like they made up it didn't exist in the first place.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Unless the game goes to Sudden Death, I think that the results screen should be the decider of who wins. The way the game is programmed is that if Bowser does a side B and suicides, he loses. If we're playing outside of the boundaries set by the game, well then we're not really playing the same game anymore, are we? It's not "Smash 4," it's "Smash 4 except that Bowser's side B makes him win with a suicide." We can make our own arbitrary rulesets if we want, but if one of those rules directly contradicts the game itself, then you're not playing the same game.

Sorry, but you knew that the results screen would declare you the loser, and you chose to do it anyway. I agree that the TO ****ed up and you got unfairly screwed in that regard, but I think that we should remove suicide clauses entirely.

 

[deepseadiva]

Sorry, but you knew that the results screen would declare you the loser, and you chose to do it anyway.

I liked your post, and agreed with it until this part. The only person(s) who should apologize for the situation are the TOs who mangled and basically straight up lied to Zigsta about the rules. Something was stolen from him and he deserves absolutely none of the blame.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I liked your post, and agreed with it until this part. The only person(s) who should apologize for the situation are the TOs who mangled and basically straight up lied to Zigsta about the rules. Something was stolen from him and he deserves absolutely none of the blame.

I did say that he got unfairly screwed because of a vague ruleset and poor communication by the TO, and that the TO is definitely at fault in this scenario. Sorry if I worded that poorly. But I do think that the rule shouldn't even exist in the first place, and that if the game declares him as the loser, then the tournament should declare him as the loser as well.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that the rule did make sense in Brawl, because the player who got stuck with the higher port number is at a disadvantage when using Bowser, but in Smash 4, Bowser always loses, so you don't have to worry about it being unfair.

 

[Teshie U]

Everything aside from the guy who told you the wrong rule is your fault unfortunately.

There is no reason we should award the win to Bowser just because he is the worse character. We should only use outside methods to determine victory when sudden death is involved and even then I'm not sure if we should give it to the initiator.

Once you try to ignore the results screen, you run into other issues like other kamikaze tactics being left out. What about dive attacks that spike often results in a double KO?

You should have looked at the rules in writing (people had been discussing Apex ruleset on this site for weeks beforehand and it was clearly on the site).

Its an unfortunate situation, but the result of this should not be adding rules to buff the character you love.

 

[FullMoon]

While I do think we should go by what the result screen tells us, I do think it's really unfair that the opponent can make Bowser commit suicide when they should be the ones getting punished for being grabbed. It's not a good thing to have a move of a character be made completely useless just because an opponent can make you kill yourself with it, especially because the Klaw is a solid kill move as it is.

So I'm a bit conflicted about this whole thing and I'm not sure if there's anything we can really do about it. My condolences to you, Zigsta, that really sucked and you really should've been compensated by the TO's mess.

 

[Hitman JT]

Everything aside from the guy who told you the wrong rule is your fault unfortunately.

There is no reason we should award the win to Bowser just because he is the worse character. We should only use outside methods to determine victory when sudden death is involved and even then I'm not sure if we should give it to the initiator.

Once you try to ignore the results screen, you run into other issues like other kamikaze tactics being left out. What about dive attacks that spike often results in a double KO?

You should have looked at the rules in writing (people had been discussing Apex ruleset on this site for weeks beforehand and it was clearly on the site).

Its an unfortunate situation, but the result of this should not be adding rules to buff the character you love.

This is less about buffing someone's favorite character and more about being straight up lied to as well as Nintendo feeling the need to rewrite the prologue of Fighting Games 101.

You successfully use a move, congrats, you should reap the reward for it and not the victim. Unfortunate reality is that Ninty doesn't think the same way, leading to us making silly and arbitrary rules that we really shouldn't need if logic was a factor during development. As they are now, suicide moves are a broken, buggy, unfair mess and no solution is going to please everybody unless we get another patch. I don't like it but there really isn't much that can be done until then except go by the game screen.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

You should have looked at the rules in writing (people had been discussing Apex ruleset on this site for weeks beforehand and it was clearly on the site).

Pretty sure he did, and that's why he tried to get clarification from a TO.

 

[thehard]

Flying Slam is still good for damage-racking and killing you know. BF top platform??

Just let the game decide the winner, barring timeouts.

 

[Cassius.]

It's more senseless that Zigsta had a 120% damage lead on his second opponent and the direction of the Side-B was completely out of his control, resulting in him losing the game when he absolutely did not want to be placed in that same situiation. That part made no sense to me either when I was there, and has happened to me multiple times as well in this game. It's an issue with the mechanics of the move itself being drastically different from before, so there's not a lot to say on that I guess.

Additionally, there were points in Brawl where Ganondorf would actually lose his stock first during a Flame Choke suicide attempt, but he was protected by the suicide clause then.

So suddenly now Bowser's control over the move is nearly out of our hands. As Bowser players, we basically can't use Side B at all if you were to shield while being close to the edge of the stage due to his exclusion from the clause/for the people who say we should just go by the game's rulings. This is an issue to me.

 

[deepseadiva]

Interesting how only in Smash does a clear and definitive win/lose screen can be "open to interpretation".

 

[Cassius.]

Smash is also the only "fighting" game where someone can run off the bounds of the screen and actually kill themselves. The freedom of this game by not being restricted to lifebars allows way more options, so people have to read between the lines. It is interesting, I suppose.

More options, more issues.

 

[deepseadiva]

The game: "This player won, and this player lost."

Bowser players: "But what does that MEAN exactly? Who's to say what the truth is this world? Aren't we all living without our own preconceived realities? Fredrick Nietzche in his work On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense (1873) writes "if man..."

 

[thehard]

I don't mean this in a rude way, but other than the confusion over the Suicide Clause, it was OP's fault he/she lost. They KNEW the risk of Flying Slam but stubbornly chose it anyway, even after their first loss. I feel bad but in a way this isn't any different than throwing out slow, strong hitboxes when your opponent has a counter.

I don't think a special rule should be enacted due to personal bias.

 

[Cassius.]

I doubt Zigsta was aware that him having 120% less damage AND intentionally driving the flying slam to center stage would cause them both to fly into the complete opposite direction.

You're playing a character with a command grab. You put your opponent in pressure, they shield. To KILL your opponent easily and win the game, why would you not use side b? For over 6 years, if Bowser had less damage, he had a reasonabe amount of control over the direction of the move. Now suddenly that doesn't matter? He was aware after losing the first set

He knows NOW that the move is complete ****, but it took him getting knocked out of pools and me witnessing it to realize how truly bad it is. It makes no sense.

A special rule doesn't have to be enacted. All that has to be done is that they include the guy in the rule that he's been a part of for years already past. He's not asking for anything difficult in my honest opinion. With the current APEX rules, even if Bowser ends up on Sudden Death (this happens on some stages, as Chris mentioned), Bowser would still have lost because his name isn't listed in the clause since it applies only to Ganondorf and whoever else.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The problem here isn't the Suicide itself, or whether is right or wrong to ignore the results screen , or if it's worth the risk.


The problem is that the rule wasn't clear, organizers didn't make it clear and its outcome conveniently favored one of them (coincidental as F, and probably would've resulted the same if it was any other player, but still).
And that is a procedure problem, and is a lesson for EVERY TO OUT THERE to make rules clear for everyone BEFORE the event (or a match at least). Zig asked and got confirmation but last second it turned out to be false.

So, I'm not against APEX staff, nor I am calling them cheaters, but simply saying they did a poor job communicating the ruleset.

 

[Chauzu]

First of, l am sorry what happened to you. Some here feel you should take the blame for not checking properly but how much properly can you check than asking a TO directly? So ignore that bs.

Secondly, l am surprised to see the inability of people here to see any issues with how Bowser's side b works. I do not care about Bowser, l never play him, and l do not care how the community decides to look at it. But we all know the change Bowser got to it was incredibly arbitrary - we all see that Bowser does not die first in practise - and as we can see here, Bowser does not die first on all stages either - on some it goes to sudden death (or a draw as we choose to view it). So by adhering to result screen only we let arbitrary Nintendo decisions that makes no sense to decide the outcome.

It would be like us using Sudden Death to decide draws, like the game wants us to. I mean, why make an arbitrary way to decide the winner when the game has one for us? I am DEFO not saying we should do this - and we all know why - but l am just pointing out this is not a black or white issue, it is complicated. imo by setting a precedent with not allowing SD as a ruling in draws, we have already decided we do not care for the result screen 100% but we decide what ways we want to decide matches.

So yeah l do not care eitherway but l am baffled some people can not see this might be something worth discussing.

 

[DMG]

The reason we don't accept sudden deaths, is because we need official wins and losses to advance bracket. You can't rule both sides a draw, and send both people forward in winner bracket or loser's bracket. It's also inferior to ask players to fight in Sudden Death to determine a winner, over the alternatives of finding a winner based on % or having a 1 stock rematch.

This doesn't set a huge precedent, since we are alleviating an issue for smoother brackets and better tie-breaker choices.

 

[deepseadiva]

It is black and white. But because the result is so displeasing to our palette we are having this discussion.

I don't think there's a single player who doesn't think Bowser "deserves" to win. But no character, or player for that matter, is owed anything in this game; besides equal access to tools and rules.

 

[MrEh]

I don't mean this in a rude way, but other than the confusion over the Suicide Clause, it was OP's fault he/she lost.

The misinformation over the suicide clause WAS the reason he lost.

How can it be his fault when he went for a tactic that was supposed to win him the game, but instead made him immediately lose because of bad TOing? How is that his fault?

 

[Laem]

I would advise kamikaze character mains to discuss the existence of a suicide clause with their opponents before their match.