Important Bidou Tech

[lmntolp]

Zero however seemed pretty sure it would make a large inpact once mastered (because easier/ more relieable frame-perfect inpuuts)

Don't get me wrong, I use Bidou and I think it's great. I was just saying that you can get a lot from it without using Pro Controller and without using every single Bidou Tech, which is a good thing because it means Bidou is flexible/customizable.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Is quick stepping to a move faster than perfect pivoting?

I am not sure, but I feel like quick step is faster but unlike perfect pivoting you can't slide or turnaround during the move.

This would make quick stepping better when you don't want to retreat and give up more space, like foxtrotting backwards into a quick step dash attack.

 

[Glitchy_]

Don't get me wrong, I use Bidou and I think it's great. I was just saying that you can get a lot from it without using Pro Controller and without using every single Bidou Tech, which is a good thing because it means Bidou is flexible/customizable.

Yea I agree with you!

 

[GusTurbo]

Why? If something can help you get to the top, even if it's just helping a little bit, shouldn't you use it?

I'm not convinced it will be any better than normal controllers. It will have tradeoffs, just like bidou has tradeoffs compared to tilt stick.

 

[Glitchy_]

I don't know if any of heard of the smashbox, but I believe it can really take this game to another level. I think this will actually get people to use bidou and it looks really good. We should really discuss this

Can you instantly do a N-air after a Fast Fall when set to Bidou?
If yes, nothig can stop me from using this xD

 

[MagnumMuskox]

I'm not convinced it will be any better than normal controllers. It will have tradeoffs, just like bidou has tradeoffs compared to tilt stick.

Maybe if it had an analog stick near the directional inputs?

 

[lmntolp]

Can you instantly do a N-air after a Fast Fall when set to Bidou?
If yes, nothig can stop me from using this xD

If you fastfall with R-stick then yes, you can nair as soon as 1 frame later because the down input is only active for 1 frame whether you hold the stick or flick it. This is not Melee though, so your nair will cancel the fastfall, and you might want to input fastfall again after your nair starts depending on the situation.

 

[Glitchy_]

If you fastfall with R-stick then yes, you can nair as soon as 1 frame later because the down input is only active for 1 frame whether you hold the stick or flick it. This is not Melee though, so your nair will cancel the fastfall, and you might want to input fastfall again after your nair starts depending on the situation.

I was looking to do JCFF with Peach, so I actually need a 2 frame long down input, then a N-air, that's my problem.

 

[lmntolp]

I was looking to do JCFF with Peach, so I actually need a 2 frame long down input, then a N-air, that's my problem.

Whoa, that's a cool tech I didn't know about, so I labbed it. I think we may have a new discovery with Bidou! When Peach is floating with Bidou on, hold L-stick down + hold or flick R-stick anywhere but up -> let go of Jump to immediately fastfall. It feels faster and more lenient than using L-stick alone. You could be floating for any amount of time and instantly fastfall whenever you want. What the R-stick does is cancel your current down command and then cause you to input down again 2 frames later.

You can combine this with JCFF so that even though I never play peach, I can now JCFF with near 100% success rate!

Hold Jump -> L-stick down + R-stick anywhere but down -> Let go of Jump quickly. This input feels much more lenient and consistent than the original one timing wise even though there's more actions. You can also nair as soon L-stick is neutral, and although I can't do that 100% of the time, I get a pretty good success rate for only doing this for 30 minutes. Even if R-stick is still held, you'll still nair. This definitely requires either jump on a shoulder button (can put shield on X/Y on GCC) or claw grip. Tap Jump doesn't work with it.

I hope you try it out, this could be really useful but idk because I don't play Peach.

 

[Glitchy_]

Whoa, that's a cool tech I didn't know about, so I labbed it. I think we may have a new discovery with Bidou! When Peach is floating with Bidou on, hold L-stick down + hold or flick R-stick anywhere but up -> let go of Jump to immediately fastfall. It feels faster and more lenient than using L-stick alone. You could be floating for any amount of time and instantly fastfall whenever you want. What the R-stick does is cancel your current down command and then cause you to input down again 2 frames later.

You can combine this with JCFF so that even though I never play peach, I can now JCFF with near 100% success rate!

Hold Jump -> L-stick down + R-stick anywhere but down -> Let go of Jump quickly. This input feels much more lenient and consistent than the original one timing wise even though there's more actions. You can also nair as soon L-stick is neutral, and although I can't do that 100% of the time, I get a pretty good success rate for only doing this for 30 minutes. Even if R-stick is still held, you'll still nair. This definitely requires either jump on a shoulder button (can put shield on X/Y on GCC) or claw grip. Tap Jump doesn't work with it.

I hope you try it out, this could be really useful but idk because I don't play Peach.

Thanks very much for trying this out, I'll do a lot of training with this the next days.
I'm using the Wii U Pro Controller so I have all 4 inputs but grab on there.

Do you have any idea why it's possible to Nair?
It sounds really weird since the input should be:

Frame ? -> N: Down
Frame N+1: Any desired direction
Frame N+1 -> ?: Down

 

[lmntolp]

Thanks very much for trying this out, I'll do a lot of training with this the next days.
I'm using the Wii U Pro Controller so I have all 4 inputs but grab on there.

Do you have any idea why it's possible to Nair?
It sounds really weird since the input should be:

Frame ? -> N: Down
Frame N+1: Any desired direction
Frame N+1 -> ?: Down

You can't nair until you let go of L-stick, so it's hard to do frame perfect nair. Bidou only helps with the JCFF before the nair. However, you can choose whether to flick or hold R-stick, it doesn't matter which. It might make more sense once you try it

 

[Glitchy_]

You can't nair until you let go of L-stick, so it's hard to do frame perfect nair. Bidou only helps with the JCFF before the nair. However, you can choose whether to flick or hold R-stick, it doesn't matter which. It might make more sense once you try it

Oh ok thanks

 

[GusTurbo]

ESAM on bidou:

 

[lmntolp]

ESAM on bidou:

Oh thanks, I was wondering exactly what ESAM's inputs were for uthrow->thunder. I'll probably tap jump it instead of using claw, but either way should work. I wonder what other characters can do with B-stick.

 

[MagnumMuskox]

Villager can Axe out of shield (jump -> B-stick down). It's quite effective for punishing shield pressure.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Hey guys, I know with Bidou you can control the speed and length of your foxtrot cancels/extended dash dance, but how exactly do you do this? I came across this video but i always hoping somebody can go more in-depth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLzOD_mKIkU

 

[lmntolp]

I might have stumbled upon some valuable movement options for Bidou! Ok, I was messing around with Bidou and step dash and I got some interesting momentum boosts. Then I remembered this 8 year old Brawl tech called Pivot Walking (PW, or people liked to call it Doop Walking too). I'm not sure if this has been tested in depth in Smash 4 yet, but I think it could use more attention.

PW lets you slide forward a respectable distance after walking and pivoting, allowing you to take any action. I would say it's like a slightly slower but longer distance perfect pivot (PP), or like an easy but shorter step dash. The Brawl input is hold A and input C-stick diagonal up-back while walking.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-pivot-walking-and-pw-crouching-thread.207154/
This tech caused a lot of discussion but didn't really catch on, partly because you had to be holding the A button, but in Smash 4 there is Bidou!

The Sm4sh Bidou input for PW is: While walking, press diagonal back-up or diagonal back-down on C-stick. The result is you will turn around with a bit of slide. You also have an option to keep holding the walk, letting you move forward with extra momentum. This only works if you started with the 2nd fastest walk animation, as the fastest one will convert to a dash after PW.

Benefits of PW:

• Slide is pretty far and fast. Some characters move faster than their normal walk while sliding
• You have smoother control over which direction you face after the action compared to PP. Personally I think crouching while sliding forward is pretty useful
• Since you walk instead of run, you can input shield/dodge/roll faster than from a PP. You also slide farther while doing shield/dodge/roll than with PP
• You can start anytime you're walking, instead of PP where you must start in a neutral position. You can also start PW from neutral if you walk for a split second first

PW techs I've done so far:
(When I say forward, it's compared to your original position before doing anything)

• Backward PW actions: PW -> Shield/dodge/roll/standing grab/any attack. You end up facing backwards.
• Forward PW actions: PW -> keep holding walk for a moment -> Shield/dodge/roll/standing grab/any attack. You end up facing forwards. slightly slower than backwards PW actions. For these you need to use your 2nd fastest walk animation, not the fastest one
• Sliding backwards crouch: PW -> L-stick down
• Sliding forwards crouch: PW -> L-stick down-forward. Very close to the same speed as backwards crouch.
• Awesome taunt: while walking, PW repeatedly. Surprisingly, this movement can be as fast or faster than some characters' walk speeds.
• PW into step dash: PW -> L-stick down-forward -> L-stick forward-down-forward -> L-stick down-forward. L-stick movements are very fast and it's still hard, but at least you don't need to time the first step perfectly like with normal step dash. I haven't practiced this one enough to understand it yet.

PW slides farther for some characters than others. It's definitely different from the step dash tier list, and the list from the Brawl thread seems kind of accurate as a staring point. It probably has something to do with walk speed/traction. In some cases, characters have really short PP and long PW, such as Link and some Fire Emblem characters. Their PW ftilt goes way farther than their PP ftilt, for example.

I believe PW could make Bidou viable on more characters, or for characters with good PP lengths already, you still get some neat movement options that come with control over the direction you face.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Great discovery! Will definitely have to try this out for myself! You definitely need to show some footage of this!

 

[lmntolp]

Great discovery! Will definitely have to try this out for myself! You definitely need to show some footage of this!

Hm, what's the best way to save a video? I haven't saved footage of anything except games vs. other players, but I'd rather have a video in training mode if possible.

Meanwhile, I found a video of someone doing PW with 3DS. It's possible to do it using 3DS circle pad only, but it's very clunky and much harder than using Bidou. This gives you some idea of what it looks like, but there are many more possible applications and characters than shown here.

 

[DeaDea]

That is an awesome discovery - need to lab this when I get the chance.

Hey guys, I know with Bidou you can control the speed and length of your foxtrot cancels/extended dash dance, but how exactly do you do this? I came across this video but i always hoping somebody can go more in-depth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLzOD_mKIkU

I made a post about this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4yij5q/advanced_extended_dash_dancing_varying_length/

Is that what you were talking about?

 

[lmntolp]

I'm still labbing Pivot Walking. I noticed that some of the techs can be done decently well with non-Bidou controls using just the control stick, so this might have a wider appeal than I first thought. This seems big enough to me that I'm actually in the process of editing clips and putting together my first Youtube video to show all these techs. It'll take a few more days for me to finish the video, but I'm excited to work on this.

 

[DariusM27]

I'm going to work on PW and StD later today.

Just want to make sure I understand the inputs using bidou.

StD = Walk right - cstick up - Lstick down right - Lstick down
?

PW = Walk - Cstick upper back while continuing to hold walk with Lstick - Release Cstick after turn

?

 

[lmntolp]

I'm going to work on PW and StD later today.

Just want to make sure I understand the inputs using bidou.

StD = Walk right - cstick up - Lstick down right - Lstick down
?

PW = Walk - Cstick upper back while continuing to hold walk with Lstick - Release Cstick after turn

?

Cool, let me know if you have any other questions along the way.

StD: Yes, this works. It's possible that you want to do down right at a more horizontal angle than 45 degrees for the longest possible slide, but I'm not consistent enough to be sure. The hardest part of StD is timing: input C-stick up just when 1 full walk animation cycle ends (like after MK moves both feet)

PW: It actually doesn't matter when you release C-stick. You can hold it or flick it, because Bidou only registers the C-stick for 1 frame either way.

 

[DariusM27]

Cool, let me know if you have any other questions along the way.

StD: Yes, this works. It's possible that you want to do down right at a more horizontal angle than 45 degrees for the longest possible slide, but I'm not consistent enough to be sure. The hardest part of StD is timing: input C-stick up just when 1 full walk animation cycle ends (like after MK moves both feet)

PW: It actually doesn't matter when you release C-stick. You can hold it or flick it, because Bidou only registers the C-stick for 1 frame either way.

Thanks!
Yeah, I still haven't done StD like even once. It seems sooo hard even with Bidou :/

I did PW a few times! I use Marth so making the fastest walk even faster seems interesting, but so far it isn't reliable/consistent. I'll keep trying, thanks! Looking forward to more info on this stuff.

 

[DeaDea]

Wow...I labbed PW for 5 mins and Im impressed. Its basically a super perfect pivot. You travel further and the only difference is you HAVE to fully turnaround your character. Its a PP turn around with more distance. Off the bat it seems PW is a very strong option for approaching, whereas PP is the option to play defensively.

 

[Glitchy_]

I might have stumbled upon some valuable movement options for Bidou! Ok, I was messing around with Bidou and step dash and I got some interesting momentum boosts. Then I remembered this 8 year old Brawl tech called Pivot Walking (PW, or people liked to call it Doop Walking too). I'm not sure if this has been tested in depth in Smash 4 yet, but I think it could use more attention.

PW lets you slide forward a respectable distance after walking and pivoting, allowing you to take any action. I would say it's like a slightly slower but longer distance perfect pivot (PP), or like an easy but shorter step dash. The Brawl input is hold A and input C-stick diagonal up-back while walking.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-pivot-walking-and-pw-crouching-thread.207154/
This tech caused a lot of discussion but didn't really catch on, partly because you had to be holding the A button, but in Smash 4 there is Bidou!

The Sm4sh Bidou input for PW is: Whilcharacters press diagonal back-up or diagonal back-down on C-stick. The result is you will turn around with a bit of slide. You also have an option to keep holding the walk, letting you move forward with extra momentum. This only works if you started with the 2nd fastest walk animation, as the fastest one will convert to a dash after PW.

Benefits of PW:

• Slide is pretty far and fast. Some characters move faster than their normal walk while sliding
• You have smoother control over which direction you face after the action compared to PP. Personally I think crouching while sliding forward is pretty useful
• Since you walk instead of run, you can input shield/dodge/roll faster than from a PP. You also slide farther while doing shield/dodge/roll than with PP
• You can start anytime you're walking, instead of PP where you must start in a neutral position. You can also start PW from neutral if you walk for a split second first

PW techs I've done so far:
(When I say forward, it's compared to your original position before doing anything)

• Backward PW actions: PW -> Shield/dodge/roll/standing grab/any attack. You end up facing backwards.
• Forward PW actions: PW -> keep holding walk for a moment -> Shield/dodge/roll/standing grab/any attack. You end up facing forwards. slightly slower than backwards PW actions. For these you need to use your 2nd fastest walk animation, not the fastest one
• Sliding backwards crouch: PW -> L-stick down
• Sliding forwards crouch: PW -> L-stick down-forward. Very close to the same speed as backwards crouch.
• Awesome taunt: while walking, PW repeatedly. Surprisingly, this movement can be as fast or faster than some characters' walk speeds.
• PW into step dash: PW -> L-stick down-forward -> L-stick forward-down-forward -> L-stick down-forward. L-stick movements are very fast and it's still hard, but at least you don't need to time the first step perfectly like with normal step dash. I haven't practiced this one enough to understand it yet.

PW slides farther for some characters than others. It's definitely different from the step dash tier list, and the list from the Brawl thread seems kind of accurate as a staring point. It probably has something to do with walk speed/traction. In some cases, characters have really short PP and long PW, such as Link and some Fire Emblem characters. Their PW ftilt goes way farther than their PP ftilt, for example.

I believe PW could make Bidou viable on more characters, or for characters with good PP lengths already, you still get some neat movement options that come with control over the direction you face.

Could you please tell me what characters' PW is faster than their walk?
And on characters with a faster walk speed, does this do anything?

 

[DariusM27]

So far PW is not reliable for me to use :/

 

[lmntolp]

Wow...I labbed PW for 5 mins and Im impressed. Its basically a super perfect pivot. You travel further and the only difference is you HAVE to fully turnaround your character. Its a PP turn around with more distance. Off the bat it seems PW is a very strong option for approaching, whereas PP is the option to play defensively.

Looks like you were able to do the advancing PW. I actually like the reverse PW techs because you only need to turn 180 instead of 360. My favorite tech is the reverse PW shield. It's really easy to do and you could close the gap really quickly against projectiles because don't have to wait for the dash > shield delay. You can also retreat quickly with it.

Could you please tell me what characters' PW is faster than their walk?
And on characters with a faster walk speed, does this do anything?

I don't have a list because I've been busy putting the video together. I actually have basically all the clips edited, but I still need to double check my facts, make the video look finished, and make a write-up. For characters with a faster walk, the PW slides very far. You can tell that limit Cloud slides farther than non-limit. Speed Shulk probably slides the farthest.

So far PW is not reliable for me to use :/

Hm, I'm not sure what could cause this, since I've gotten pretty consistent with Marth. What happens when it doesn't work? Do you dash?

Try the easiest options first:

- PW: Walk forward with 2nd fastest walk animation > press C-stick up-back > Keep holding walk. You'll do a 360 and a little slide. You can do this repeatedly while holding walk the whole time
- Reverse PW shield: Walk forward with fastest walk animation > press C-stick up-back > Shield quickly. You'll turn 180 and slide pretty far in a shield. You should keep the control stick in the same place the whole time.

Maybe I can make some gfycats to show what it looks like before the video comes out.

EDIT: I made some gfycat teasers!

This is what PW looks like. If I walked full speed with the Bidou input, I would've dashed after the pivot.
This is what Reverse PW Shield looks like. Here I can walk full speed because it's a reverse action.
This is what PP Shield looks like. Look how much shorter it is compared to PW.

 

[GusTurbo]

This works great for Marth. You might be on to something here.

Also, I find that if you want to start a walk quickly without dashing, holding the L stick up at an angle helps.

Edit: Ryukred is on it
https://twitter.com/Ryukred/status/768676686539784192

 

[lmntolp]

https://smashboards.com/threads/pivot-walking.440883/

My video is up! Check it out!

 

[Glitchy_]

Is the fact that you can use the C-Stick as a smash stick new or just common knowledge?

 

[lmntolp]

Is the fact that you can use the C-Stick as a smash stick new or just common knowledge?

Smash Bidou is common knowledge, but I don't like to do that because you have to hold A and B, so you can't really do attacks while Smash Bidou is active. And you have to turn A+B smash on.

 

[Glitchy_]

Smash Bidou is common knowledge, but I don't like to do that because you have to hold A and B, so you can't really do attacks while Smash Bidou is active. And you have to turn A+B smash on.

Wait.. this sounds weird to me. Could you please exactly explain how you perform the Smashes?

 

[lmntolp]

Wait.. this sounds weird to me. Could you please exactly explain how you perform the Smashes?

If you have A+B Smash set to On and C-stick set to Smash, then it's like Bidou. You hold Attack and Special at the same time and your C-stick becomes a directional stick. Is that what you were asking about?

 

[Glitchy_]

If you have A+B Smash set to On and C-stick set to Smash, then it's like Bidou. You hold Attack and Special at the same time and your C-stick becomes a directional stick. Is that what you were asking about?

Interesting, thanks I didn't know about that!

And no, I'm talking about a way where you can Smash with the C-Stick with the normal Bidou controller settings.

 

[GusTurbo]

Oh. Yeah, you can smash with the C stick with bidou, but you have to hit attack at the same time. It's just like a regular directional input.

 

[Glitchy_]

Yea exactly! Can you do it consitently?

 

[lmntolp]

Interesting, thanks I didn't know about that!

And no, I'm talking about a way where you can Smash with the C-Stick with the normal Bidou controller settings.

Oh ok, I misunderstood. GusTurbo is right, you can always press C-Stick and Attack on the exact same frame to do a smash in the direction of the C-stick. You can do this for aerials too. It's pretty hard though. I can only do this with like a 70% success rate.

There is also another way. If you move C-stick and then press Attack just after that, you will do a smash in the direction of the CONTROL stick. This way feels a bit easier, and I'm pretty sure you have more than 1 frame because you have more than 1 frame to perform a smash with the control stick. I use this method for PP smashes and now PW smashes too.

 

[Glitchy_]

Oh ok, I misunderstood. GusTurbo is right, you can always press C-Stick and Attack on the exact same frame to do a smash in the direction of the C-stick. You can do this for aerials too. It's pretty hard though. I can only do this with like a 70% success rate.

There is also another way. If you move C-stick and then press Attack just after that, you will do a smash in the direction of the CONTROL stick. This way feels a bit easier, and I'm pretty sure you have more than 1 frame because you have more than 1 frame to perform a smash with the control stick. I use this method for PP smashes and now PW smashes too.

I just wanted to find a way to use the C-Stick the same way as the Smash stick, thanks!
Oh and is it possible to do N-Airs with this method? Didn't work for me.

 

[lmntolp]

I just wanted to find a way to use the C-Stick the same way as the Smash stick, thanks!
Oh and is it possible to do N-Airs with this method? Didn't work for me.

Nope, can't do nairs that way.