Best/Worst matchup for DK? GO

[Caleb Cole]

Best/Worst matchup for DK? GO

 

[CELTiiC]

DK has an awful time against Peach, so I would vote for her being one of his worst matchups. For best, I'm not exactly sure. He doesn't have many advantageous match ups, but I find Roy to be a good matchup for DK at least in my experience.

 

[Brass Monkey]

I am genuinely confused as to why you listed peach. We beat her in every department of Strength, Speed, and Range. The only projectile she has is rather slow, limited in range, and doesn't help her really edgeguard us. She also lacks a spike or meteor and thus has to correctly read multiple hits on us until we croak. We can easily work around her float game onstage and her only grounded threat is downsmash. 3.5 also gave us the opportunity to kill her out of cargo at 50% with giant punch for an extremely early kill.

As far as the original question goes, in my experience, DK's worst matchup is Charizard. His jab can stuff any shuffle attempts, is non crouch cancelable, and leads directly into an upsmash which leads into up air chains. The only difference with his up air chains is that he has multiple jumps and a killer with his Up-B off the top. It also doesn't help that he is one of the hardest characters to kill outside of our upsmash which is hard to land.
Best matchup would probably be something like kirby. Back air for days as it gets around everything, including inhale. He'll also want to keep his original inhale as his giant punch is severely lacking in range. His recover is also circumvented due to early deaths off of the side due to our brute strength. He also lacks the ability to crouch under our grab since it goes so low. Same thing with peach, we can grab him at roughly 50% and kill him with a giant punch out of cargo for a swift death.

 

[CELTiiC]

I am genuinely confused as to why you listed peach. We beat her in every department of Strength, Speed, and Range. The only projectile she has is rather slow, limited in range, and doesn't help her really edgeguard us. She also lacks a spike or meteor and thus has to correctly read multiple hits on us until we croak. We can easily work around her float game onstage and her only grounded threat is downsmash. 3.5 also gave us the opportunity to kill her out of cargo at 50% with giant punch for an extremely early kill.

Theory does not always hold substance into how things play out in reality; theory can only be judged so far. I'm not sure how much experience you have against Peach, but as I do understand your points, I listed her because I have had a tremendous amount of experience against Peach and have had a lot of trouble against her. This also could be that the player who played Peach is definitely better than I am, but I still find it very hard. First of all, I completely disagree with you that her projectile does not help her edge guard us, as a turnip could set us up for a f-air or n-air off stage and DK's recovery is extremely telegraphed making it easy for Peach to know where to place the turnip. She can also carry us off stage with her float by chaining her n-airs and f-airs together and because of how DK's recovery works without a jump he is essentially trapped. To add to that, Peach can edge guard DK with relative ease between her d-air, n-air, f-air and turnips. Obviously her turnips aren't the worse projectile we have to deal with, but they are still relevant in the match up. Her lacking a spike is really minimal, as she is packed with efficient combo moves, a reliable kill throw and her d-smash is just amazing; especially with DK being a semi-fast faller. Her d-smash also forces DK to play away from a crouch based neutral, as getting caught in the d-smash while crouching will lead to big damage. Also it is very hard to grab a very good Peach player because of their float and the tremendous shield stun on her f-air. Without a giant punch DK doesn't have any real hard hitting punishes out of a grab as generally you will just get a b-air or u-air. Peach can also recover very easily against DK, and although she has trouble against DK's b-air once Peach is in it's hard to get her out. Obviously this all could be skewed in my opinion, but one of the best players in my area plays Peach and at Shots Fired I was playing some matches versus Vanz and I was having tremendous difficulty playing against both of them. I have discussed this match up multiple times with my good friend who also is a DK main and we both, at least, agree this is definitely one of DK's worst match ups in 3.5. Killing her at 50% is a huge benefit but doesn't make this match up super easy. DK has to play an extremely patient and efficient neutral or else that one mistake will lead to big percents or potentially death, which in my opinion equals out the punch killing at around 50%.

 

[POOB]

Best: Roy and Snake
Worst: Ivysaur, Zelda, Falco, Fox

Just my opinions of course

 

[Brass Monkey]

I think there is some truth to what you've said. If someone as skilled as Armada played peach in PM with his edgeguard game, it would be somewhat simple to edgeguard DK. The lack of spike just means DK gets several chances to return onstage. While I'll be the first to say that I probably have a lot more to learn in the matchup, I do have several experiences with moderately good peaches who would abuse her float onstage only to get played around due to lack of speed and get stuffed with nairs,bairs,ect. I can not express the importance of the difference in speed that these two characters have. The moment Peach has left the ground she has forfeited both crouching and dash dancing. This allows DK to freely bait moves out and punish accordingly. If she found her way in directly on top of me then I would respond accordingly with a nair/up-b oos. They then would usually fall back to a more ground based approach with turnips in hand and proceed to abuse crouch/downsmash. Now, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but DK has a good crouch breaker that can be shffled. Iv'e found that falling upairs, especially ones where you land just behind the opponent, are of the best options he has when dealing with crouch canceling while being relatively safe on shield (Nair oos can still clip you). Unlike Nair, crouching an up-air at mid percents produces a similar effect to Falco's Shine being crouched at low percents where the opponent goes from crouched to prone. They usually don't expect it and thus miss the tech window. This can be immediately be followed up by the backside of up-tilt. Because you're hitting them with the end of the move, you then have ample time to slug peach with a fair for the kill. The matchup to me feels to be dictated by DK's superior speed and thus relies on his choices of approach. Perhaps some of my bias comes from the fact that I have developed a fairly good item game and can mitigate turnip play onstage as I can catch them in tandem with a dash forward into wavedash back.

 

[CELTiiC]

I think there is some truth to what you've said. If someone as skilled as Armada played peach in PM with his edgeguard game, it would be somewhat simple to edgeguard DK. The lack of spike just means DK gets several chances to return onstage. While I'll be the first to say that I probably have a lot more to learn in the matchup, I do have several experiences with moderately good peaches who would abuse her float onstage only to get played around due to lack of speed and get stuffed with nairs,bairs,ect. I can not express the importance of the difference in speed that these two characters have. The moment Peach has left the ground she has forfeited both crouching and dash dancing. This allows DK to freely bait moves out and punish accordingly. If she found her way in directly on top of me then I would respond accordingly with a nair/up-b oos. They then would usually fall back to a more ground based approach with turnips in hand and proceed to abuse crouch/downsmash. Now, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but DK has a good crouch breaker that can be shffled. Iv'e found that falling upairs, especially ones where you land just behind the opponent, are of the best options he has when dealing with crouch canceling while being relatively safe on shield (Nair oos can still clip you). Unlike Nair, crouching an up-air at mid percents produces a similar effect to Falco's Shine being crouched at low percents where the opponent goes from crouched to prone. They usually don't expect it and thus miss the tech window. This can be immediately be followed up by the backside of up-tilt. Because you're hitting them with the end of the move, you then have ample time to slug peach with a fair for the kill. The matchup to me feels to be dictated by DK's superior speed and thus relies on his choices of approach. Perhaps some of my bias comes from the fact that I have developed a fairly good item game and can mitigate turnip play onstage as I can catch them in tandem with a dash forward into wavedash back.

Well edge guarding DK is not hard by any means. He is one of the easier characters to edge guard because of how telegraphed his Up B is, and if DK gets stuck recovering even with the stage invincible b-airs and n-airs off ledge make it almost impossible to recover. So even moderate Peach players will have good efficiency edge guarding DK if they have any experience or know what they are doing. I understand your points, but from playing Vanz or Jaden, who respectfully placed 4th at Shots Fired, it felt skewed in almost all aspects of the matchup. Obviously due to the skill difference there may have been some skewed opinions, but I go relatively even or close with the Peach player from my area but once I played a Peach with precise edge guarding and a defined combo game it just felt very hard for DK. Obviously not all players can edge guard to that ability, but as I said earlier edge guarding DK is by no means difficult. He can mix it up with stopping and fading back, but with a turnip in hand as well she can cover most options and keep you popped up. I would like to rematch Jaden now that I would say I'm a lot better and see the results. I personally may have a Peach problem, but I find her very hard to play against in PM and very under rated in PM as well. To add though, I would like to say I have a fairly good item game as well, as I played a lot of Diddy in Brawl & PM for the most part and I have learned to adjust with items from playing DK throughout all titles and dealing with projectiles for my entire smash career. I can deal with turnips for the most part, but a smart Peach player will definitely incorporate her turnips into her neutral and edge guarding game effectively and efficiently.

 

[call2brawl7000]

Luigi is a character I have consistent trouble with. Mario can be a nuisance too, but not quite as bad. I haven't figured out how to stop getting comboed to death by Zelda yet but the guy who plays him in my area is also just better than me. For now

 

[call2brawl7000]

I love fighting Roy. Fighting Roy is pretty much Jungle Beat mode. Just plug in the bongoes and wail away

 

[Planet Piss]

Not sure about best because anything DK can grab he can kill immediately, but worst are Ivysaur, G&W, Falco, maybe DDD, and Ness and Falcon are also super tough.

And about Peach, I don't see that MU as a threat at all. DK has all the tools and more to wall her out, and a grab at zero is a definite 50+%. Jab Dtilt starts combos from the ground, and if she goes off the ground, bair covers all her options. If you're getting WOP'd, DI down and away, save your jump, and time your UP+b to hit her out of her offstage edgeguard/gimp. Also, bait Dsmash by crouching. You can safely fight peach in neutral by coming in too close for her to pull turnips, and walling her with quick attacks. If she's hitting you with float-cancelled fairs then at some point you messed up in neutral.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Theory does not always hold substance into how things play out in reality; theory can only be judged so far. I'm not sure how much experience you have against Peach, but as I do understand your points, I listed her because I have had a tremendous amount of experience against Peach and have had a lot of trouble against her. This also could be that the player who played Peach is definitely better than I am, but I still find it very hard. First of all, I completely disagree with you that her projectile does not help her edge guard us, as a turnip could set us up for a f-air or n-air off stage and DK's recovery is extremely telegraphed making it easy for Peach to know where to place the turnip. She can also carry us off stage with her float by chaining her n-airs and f-airs together and because of how DK's recovery works without a jump he is essentially trapped. To add to that, Peach can edge guard DK with relative ease between her d-air, n-air, f-air and turnips. Obviously her turnips aren't the worse projectile we have to deal with, but they are still relevant in the match up. Her lacking a spike is really minimal, as she is packed with efficient combo moves, a reliable kill throw and her d-smash is just amazing; especially with DK being a semi-fast faller. Her d-smash also forces DK to play away from a crouch based neutral, as getting caught in the d-smash while crouching will lead to big damage. Also it is very hard to grab a very good Peach player because of their float and the tremendous shield stun on her f-air. Without a giant punch DK doesn't have any real hard hitting punishes out of a grab as generally you will just get a b-air or u-air. Peach can also recover very easily against DK, and although she has trouble against DK's b-air once Peach is in it's hard to get her out. Obviously this all could be skewed in my opinion, but one of the best players in my area plays Peach and at Shots Fired I was playing some matches versus Vanz and I was having tremendous difficulty playing against both of them. I have discussed this match up multiple times with my good friend who also is a DK main and we both, at least, agree this is definitely one of DK's worst match ups in 3.5. Killing her at 50% is a huge benefit but doesn't make this match up super easy. DK has to play an extremely patient and efficient neutral or else that one mistake will lead to big percents or potentially death, which in my opinion equals out the punch killing at around 50%.

Dude, this green is killing me. I can't read this. I get 2 sentences in and my eyes bug out. Do you have to color your texts?
As for MU input. I'm an Olimar main, and I think DK wins the MU. His power and combo game are ruthless and he can net early kills off the top with his ariel cargo Fthrow/Bthrow -> Fair combo.

 

[CELTiiC]

Dude, this green is killing me. I can't read this. I get 2 sentences in and my eyes bug out. Do you have to color your texts?
As for MU input. I'm an Olimar main, and I think DK wins the MU. His power and combo game are ruthless and he can net early kills off the top with his ariel cargo Fthrow/Bthrow -> Fair combo.

No, I don't have to color my text. It's a preference on this site, and I chose to do it. I'm sorry you couldn't read my text, you could just copy and paste it into a word document if your eyes bugged out that bad lol. Anyway, I haven't been able to play against an Olimar in 3.6b, but I don't know if I think DK really wins the match-up. There is an Olimar player in Philly I would like to play, so I'll try to get matches against him but from previous experience I don't think DK wins the match-up.

 

[Brass Monkey]

3.6 has brought a mixed bag to Olimar, though mainly buffs. He has become the next recipient of melee Sheik's down-throw and can get a ******** amount of stuff, including regrabs, out of his new down (?) throw. The matchup however I feel is still in DK's favor due to his now static crappy recovery being a sitting duck as it lacks the ability to sweetspot the ledge and thus gets torn apart by our fair. Onstage is not much better for olimar, his only projectile does not hinder our approach unless it's a purple. We can also largely ignore pikmin latching onto us when we charge in as a shffle nair/dash attack will usually decimate them. Olimar's range, speed (bar grab and forward smash), and power (unless he gets flowers on the appropriate pikmin, blues for throws, reds for aerials, ect) are all for the most part outclassed by us.