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Best ways to punish rolls?

D

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When people roll away I usually throw projectiles after them, but with most characters I've tried it on, the rolls have enough invincibility frames that none of my projectiles hit them. It's been a little easier when they roll behind me since I can just spin attack, but I'm worried about getting too used to using it as anything other than recovery since it can end badly if I mess up. I've tried dsmashing, sh nairing, and sh bairing, but they ended up not working for one reason or another. I feel stupid for asking this since rolls should be pretty easy to punish, but does anyone have any ideas on what to do?
 

mush21

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
19
Down smash doesn't work because he swipes in front of him first. By the time he does the back swing, you've lost your punish window. I really wish this move worked a little differently, but oh well. Have you tried forward smashing in the opposite direction? I also like to delay the second hit a little to try to catch them trying to do something.

Not sure if this helps, we all need to know the best ways to punish with this guy. Kills aren't always the easiest to get.
 

Fangblade

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Since TL's not much of an aggressive character so your best bet is to keep spamming while you have the opportunity. It can be risky when they're rolling close to you so I normally keep up the Bomb spam, that way I'll have one handy when they decide to stop. All the better if they roll in a pattern... If they like to roll behind you, your options are to Dsmash, Uspecial if you get a read (this move is really risky and whiffs will get you punished), pivot attacks, or to dash away. It really is character and percent dependent. If you're too slow characters like Sonic/Mario can Fsmash and KO you, and others like Rosalina&Luma/Palutenna are hard to get a read on. You probably should just dash away when they try and roll behind you. The worse thing you can do is start rolling yourself :roll:
 

deech

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Oct 27, 2014
Messages
39
If they're rolling near you, dash away and pull a bomb.
 

Turbopasta

Smash Rookie
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Oct 4, 2014
Messages
23
I've had pretty good results at punishing short behind or right in front of me with a quick standing up b. If you screw up and it doesn't hit you're gonna eat a ton of damage tho.
 

Sharkzie

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Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
29
I read that you can down smash facing away from him while he is on the ledge; when he rolls you can use your down smash and it'll connect since he is in front of you.
 

Davis-Lightheart

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Sep 14, 2014
Messages
464
I dunno if this was in Brawl or not, so I felt maybe this deserved to be posted here. It seems to have something to do with perfect pivoting, but I'm not sure as I haven't tried it yet.

This guy found it, and I think it's pretty cool.

 

ultrament2

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Up-B. If they roll behind you they get sucked in. Of course, if they guard, you're screwed. I suggest a dash-pivot sidesmash if you find they shield your Up-Bs.
 

deech

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
39
I don't really play Smash DS anymore (and I don't have a Wii U, will get one later on though).

But another way to punish a roller is to have bombs and JC throw toward them. Sets up in time for any roll (away or toward you).
 

adacis

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
4
In the case of down smashing, try holding it a little longer? I found that if it doesn't work, it's because it's done too early. I also try to catch them with an up smash. If unsuccessful, he can usually escape unscathed since it's a fast recovery. If they're rolling away, I usually catch them at the end of roll with the boomerang. I think it's all just a matter of improving the timing.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I see this come up a lot so I'm just going to make a general post giving advice about what to do when someone is spamming rolls.

First of all you need to realise that by rolling, they're not really doing anything that threatening to you. If they want to roll, let them roll.
Rolling is only useful for punishing overcommitment. This is important so read that again.
What you want to do then is only use actions that don't leave you overly committed. If the move/action is laggy or keeps you in one spot for too long, just don't do it and they won't be able to get any reward out of rolling.
One thing rolling does obviously achieve is it adjusts the amount of space in between you both, so while making non-committed pokes at them, you want to make sure you adjust your spacing as they do, and if possible try to keep it so that they can't roll behind you. This can be done by either retreating or just jumping away.
The focus shouldn't be on punishing the rolling, rather it should be on maintaining the more neutral situation where they are essentially just wasting their time which will force them to use other options.
Having said that, you should be making your pokes with the intention of hitting them at the end of their roll. If they are literally spamming it, sometimes it helps to predict the next roll as this will give you more time to set up. Punishing rolls on reaction is difficult otherwise.
I will say this one more time for absolute clarity. Do not attempt to punish a roll with an attack that will leave you open to be punished yourself should you miss (unless you are amazing, in which case this entire post doesn't actually apply to you).
 

Artmastercorey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
429
I see this come up a lot so I'm just going to make a general post giving advice about what to do when someone is spamming rolls.

First of all you need to realise that by rolling, they're not really doing anything that threatening to you. If they want to roll, let them roll.
Rolling is only useful for punishing overcommitment. This is important so read that again.
What you want to do then is only use actions that don't leave you overly committed. If the move/action is laggy or keeps you in one spot for too long, just don't do it and they won't be able to get any reward out of rolling.
One thing rolling does obviously achieve is it adjusts the amount of space in between you both, so while making non-committed pokes at them, you want to make sure you adjust your spacing as they do, and if possible try to keep it so that they can't roll behind you. This can be done by either retreating or just jumping away.
The focus shouldn't be on punishing the rolling, rather it should be on maintaining the more neutral situation where they are essentially just wasting their time which will force them to use other options.
Having said that, you should be making your pokes with the intention of hitting them at the end of their roll. If they are literally spamming it, sometimes it helps to predict the next roll as this will give you more time to set up. Punishing rolls on reaction is difficult otherwise.
I will say this one more time for absolute clarity. Do no attempt to punish a roll with an attack that will leave you open to be punished yourself should you miss (unless you are amazing, in which case this entire post doesn't actually apply to you).
Pretty much said it. Learn your opponents habits and read/predict the role, punish with quick attacks. Up tilt, 2 jabs can be good (to grab) reverse pivot grab (forgot what they call it but this isnt as safe an option sometimes) , reverse bomb throw as deech said. Thats what I use. Sometimes I'll just sit there and wait for them to roll towards me to punish them. Jtails video seems pretty good as showing options for toonlink as well as explaining reading the roll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXscqe9jii4

 
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ILJ

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I like to up-B if they are rolling all around me. Risky of course but it works well as its not expected.
 

Golden Sun

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Like what ILJ said, up-B has a good windbox that pulls you in if your next to the green swing part, most Toon Link's don't use it on ground so they wont be expecting it.
 

2busywinning

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Joined
Aug 7, 2010
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18
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North Carolina
I personally love playing against roll-happy players. They make it so easy to begin to read their movements and therefore, I can hit a lot of strong smashes against them.

Buttttt annyyywayyy... I agree with the Mod earlier: Don't over commit to anything unless you're fairly certain it's going to connect. I don't like to up-B when someone is rolling around me (This move is by far the easiest to punish b/c you're wide open for months after not connecting) When a player is rolling around me, I like to f-smash in the direction they're planning to end their roll in and since Toon's f-smash is a two-part it works even better for me. If you don't connect with the first smack, you have a minute to judge if you need to actually throw the second. I absolutely love the Link's f-smashes. They are extremely powerful and pretty hard for your opponent to read.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Locked by request of Dr. Artemis.

Edit: Re-opening because I can.
Try not to repeat what has already been said. Read through the thread first. Contributions with competitive experience are preferred.
 
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