Best Smashers know when not to attack

[phanna]

Even an infinitely techskill player would be in error to constantly throw out hitboxes as fast and mercilessly as he could. Of course, when you are doing consecutive hits / combo'ing, you want to be very fast and precise in your attacks, but not just any attack will do. But I'm not talking about that, so much as the moments between combos, say when they're spacing / shielding. Throwing out your attacks recklessly is a bad idea, as soon as you attack that space is safe for entering in the following frames. As soon as you attack their shield, they are free to punish in the frames following the attack. You need to keep pressure not only by attacks, but by the possibility of an attack, from being located relative to them to attack at any moment, but waiting for them to make a mistake before you truly initiate.

Just a Zen thought of the day.

 

[hungrybox]

8/10

I'd like some examples in, say, the fox/marth MU

 

[KirbyKaze]

wow i just explained this concept to the puff mains

****ing biter

lololol jk w/e phanna the best in the world

 

[Divinokage]

Screw that, keep on trampling my opponents, rawr!

 

[Cactuar]

Kage: Berserker Status

 

[Deleted member]

I like to attack my opponent's attacks. zelda's foot ftw.

 

[Cactuar]

Umbreon: Hitbox Abuser Status

 

[Juggleguy]

But... I'm from the Darkrain school of Smash, where not attacking may result in forfeiture of my Falcon license-to-play.

 

[VA]

Lots of people prefer to look cool in what they're doing rather than by doing something smart. I can't do either. dsmash all dai.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Lots of people prefer to look cool in what they're doing rather than by doing something smart. I can't do either. dsmash all dai.

You come down with attacks a lot when you're trying to escape the ****.

 

[tarheeljks]

sounds like dizzy gillespie's take on jazz

 

[VA]

You come down with attacks a lot when you're trying to escape the ****.

I know, bad habit cos I suck.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You probably shouldn't attack your opponent when he's running around with respawn invincibility.

Seriously, though, that's a good though, Phanna.

 

[CloneHat]

I live by this rule. Most of the time I just try to walk around and jab, trying to bait a punish.

Then, all of a sudden:

I'd like some examples in, say, the fox/marth MU

It stops working!

 

[Dark Sonic]

8/10

I'd like some examples in, say, the fox/marth MU

Fox has his back to the ledge and Marth shorthops within range to fair him. The likely situation is that Fox will shield.

The moment Marth does an attack he is committed. If he fairs Fox's shield while rising Fox will have time to escape before Marth can do anything about it. So the better tactic (once you've already committed to shorthopping) would be to wait and either attack on the way down, or simply not attack at all.

Even better would be to simply stand outside of Fox's immediate range, while still in range to attack him yourself. Just by standing there, you are "threatening space" and the player will be pressured to try to get out of that situation.



Other good examples include a Ganon standing just outside of a Marth's ledgehop options (with his back to the ledge) and only acting after he's seen marth make some kind of movement (shorthopping every time marth lets go of the ledge is pretty good). Rather than being in position to hit the ledge itself, you put yourself in position to hit Marth after he gets onto the stage (he'll have to eventually). You can immediately bair if he wavelands on (will also hit rolls), you can double jump bair/uair if he ledge jumps, and you're not in range to be hit by any immediate ledgehopped aerials. And if Marth does successfully make it onto the stage, you're still in a very favorable position, with Marth having his back to the ledge and you already putting him on the defense.


I'm only an average player, but I think these examples are pretty accurate.

 

[The Star King]

Just a Zen thought of the day.

a Zen

azen

I see what you did there.

 

[Kason Birdman]

Ok... Just looked over everything..
I fully agree with this thread.

Everything.

Man this is a nice thread.

 

[mizujin]

I can't help but think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rdIqsHKcbcs#t=162s

 

[Rubyiris]

Good smashers know when not to attack.

The best smashers know how to attack all the time, and make it work.

 

[Nicknyte]

Best Smasher know when MISFIREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Rubyiris]

Elvis is the best smasher.

Not necessarily the most skilled, however.

 

[Nicknyte]

I agree with rubyiris' statement.

 

[FireFly]

Spacing is a good example of knowing when not to attack. Keeping distance between you and your opponent to give yourself space to know when to attack.

 

[-ACE-]

Good smashers know when not to attack.

The best smashers know how to attack all the time, and make it work.

Nah. Shiz attacks (basically) all the time, and makes it work the vast majority of the time and is not at the level of say pp/mango, who choose their attacks more carefully. Not the only thing that sets them apart but I'd say it is a major one.

 

[Kira-]

I always thought the best players knew when to attack.

Anyone can camp and "play safe" ... I would know

You come down with attacks a lot when you're trying to escape the ****.

I have lots of trouble escaping **** too =(

 

[KirbyKaze]

I can't help but think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rdIqsHKcbcs#t=162s

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

i remember that

kira, part of escaping the **** is figuring out when taking it isn't all that bad

 

[SSBMLahti]

I'd rather look cool and fancy than play smart and win.

 

[Kira-]

That's what all the bad people say.



And SilentSpectre.

 

[phanna]

I always thought the best players knew when to attack.

Yes, "when" to attack implies there are times not to attack. That's what this thread is focusing on, since up-and-coming players, in watching pros, frequently get the wrong idea and try to omgwtfbbqtechskill999apm attack their foe, which is a grievous error.

Anyone can camp and "play safe"

This thread has nothing to do with camping or playing it safe. I'll re-quote part of my OP:

You need to keep pressure not only by attacks, but by the possibility of an attack, from being located relative to them to attack at any moment, but waiting for them to make a mistake before you truly initiate.

 

[Kira-]

Yes, "when" to attack implies there are times not to attack. That's what this thread is focusing on, since up-and-coming players, in watching pros, frequently get the wrong idea and try to omgwtfbbqtechskill999apm attack their foe, which is a grievous error.

This thread has nothing to do with camping or playing it safe. I'll re-quote part of my OP:

You need to keep pressure not only by attacks, but by the possibility of an attack, from being located relative to them to attack at any moment, but waiting for them to make a mistake before you truly initiate.

We have different perspectives. I always thought too many people play it safe and don't approach when they have an opportunity to. You seem to think that people rush too much and don't know when to slow down. Same concept though lol, figure out when to do what

 

[Rubyiris]

@Ace Wat. Mango is also one of the "I will attack 100% of the time." players.

 

[ryuu seika]

You probably shouldn't attack your opponent when he's running around with respawn invincibility.

Real players know how to be hitting their opponents just as the invincibility wears off. Dair for the win.

 

[Hax]

OP is correct because no matter how frame-perfect you are, no move in the game doesn't have lag that can't be punished (aside from max-speed fox/falco doubleshining). it is always best to think your moves out.

at first glance it looks like Mango's playstyle says otherwise; this is false. a cornerstone of Mango's gameplay is using attacks to mindgame/create openings. a very obvious example of this is his patented falco nair -> DI back -> fsmash that tricks the opponent into thinking the lag/poor spacing of the nair allows for a shieldgrab. i've yet to see anyone else try to incorporate this; it's probably why Mango is the best player

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is great partially because he can be like, "Yo, opponent, I'm totally gonna attack" so then the opponent moves back and/or throws out something to defend themselves because this is a plausible theory. But then Fox is like, "lawl jay kay" and trolls them into lagging themselves and sometimes he punishes those whiffs.

That he has the fast startup time and speed mix to hit the opponent before their defense is active if they let him penetrate their zone at advantage (or if they try to do things off reaction when he's within relatively close proximity) is fabulous too. And makes this cycle of awesome strategy **** mindgames.

Fortunately, he can be range gayed. Sometimes. And death combo'd. Sometimes.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Fox is great partially because he can be like, "Yo, opponent, I'm totally gonna attack" so then the opponent moves back and/or throws out something to defend themselves because this is a plausible theory. But then Fox is like, "lawl jay kay" and trolls them into lagging themselves and sometimes he punishes those whiffs.

KirbyKaze too good.

 

[Bones0]

OP is correct because no matter how frame-perfect you are, no move in the game doesn't have lag that can't be punished (aside from max-speed fox/falco doubleshining). it is always best to think your moves out.

at first glance it looks like Mango's playstyle says otherwise; this is false. a cornerstone of Mango's gameplay is using attacks to mindgame/create openings. a very obvious example of this is his patented falco nair -> DI back -> fsmash that tricks the opponent into thinking the lag/poor spacing of the nair allows for a shieldgrab. i've yet to see anyone else try to incorporate this; it's probably why Mango is the best player

He typically uses late nair on their shield --> shine --> fade away dair.
Example
I saw PP doing it as well in their Grand Finals set from WGF. I use it all the time and yell Maaaangoooo whenever I land the fsmash. lol I also remember watching a match with Mango as Fox vs. Hbox, and he literally just dash danced for what seemed like an eternity as Hbox just threw out bairs over his head. If anyone finds that it'd be a great example of knowing when not to attack.

 

[-ACE-]

@Ace Wat. Mango is also one of the "I will attack 100% of the time." players.

Curse mango for not trying lol.

 

[Zodiac]

Screw that, keep on trampling my opponents, rawr!

I agree 100%

 

[ArcNatural]

@Ace Wat. Mango is also one of the "I will attack 100% of the time." players.

Mango is the only player I know who attacks consistently with his shield. He often puts himself in position to use his shield spacing offensively, if that makes any sense.

 

[Kira-]

kira, part of escaping the **** is figuring out when taking it isn't all that bad

Melee

teaching you how to get ***** but not that badly