Behind Wobbling: All the stuff you don't see

[xKobayashi]

this guide is spot on, a lot of people don't understand how the ice climber's punish game works, and when wobbling does and does not work. ive been trying to get your dash slide desych down for awhile but didnt know the whole thing about only slightly inputting the turn around. thanks so much man! really appreciate your gameplay

 

[D_D]

I'm new to melee (been playing about a month now) and i've decided to make Ice Climbers my main, but I've been trying and trying to wobble and I just can't do it. I've been keeping my timing consistent, but Nana's tilts seem to not be staying consistently timed. Any help? Or should I just try to not wobble for now and focus on other aspects of IC's?
EDIT: I talked to my friend about it, and he said the reason why I can't is because I use an LCD TV, which gives 6 frames of lag. I plan on buying a CRT this weekend. I'll update if I need any more help with it.

 

[Army805]

If i'm understanding correctly, if the opponent gets out after the first headbutt lands, it's the IC's fault? (obviously not counting the situations where Nana is not in place ready to go)
Also, can someone elaborate more on the CaptureDamage/CaptureWait stuff? I'd like to understand completely.

 

[OddishGuy]

If i'm understanding correctly, if the opponent gets out after the first headbutt lands, it's the IC's fault? (obviously not counting the situations where Nana is not in place ready to go)
Also, can someone elaborate more on the CaptureDamage/CaptureWait stuff? I'd like to understand completely.

You're understanding that perfectly.

The CaptureDamage/CaptureWait stuff is the mechanics behind being grabbed that allows wobbling and doubles infinites (1 player grabs, other drill shines/ rapid jabs etc) to exist.
Once you've been hit in a grab, you are placed into CaptureDamage for 20 frames. You cannot escape a grab during this time. Once that has ended, you enter CaptureWait, and if you've mashed enough buttons you immediately start escaping, the wobble has been dropped. CaptureWait doesn't have a set time, it's based on damage and total buttons mashed while in the grab. If you grab someone at 0% vs. at 999% the CaptureWait window will vary.
Worth noting is that button mashing is buffered, meaning that if I mash a ton while I'm getting wobbled 0-100%, and then stop mashing, if my opponent stops wobbling at 200% I'll still escape. Obviously I wasn't mashing from the most recent hit of the wobble to the first whiff, but my previous mashing buffered and I get an immediate release once I enter CaptureWait.

A playthrough would go like this.
Grab, (not enough mashing to escape) pummel (some hit stun is incurred by both Popo and the victim of the grab [not Nana], so they're chilling for like 3 frames) victim enters Capture damage 1, 2, 3... time passing... 14 Boom Nana F-tilt or something (Nana and victim enter hitstun for the hit while Popo continues doing whatever), victim enters Capture damage 1, 2, 3... time passing, 10 (pressed A here to get Popo to pummel it will hit frame 23) 11, 12 ... 19, 20, BOOM ESCAPE! Opponent slides away and stuff. Pummel was started, but Popo takes a while to swing that forehead, so the opponent escapes before it connects and both Popo and the victim go into 30 frames of grab release lag, Nana does whatever, probably repeated taunts or an SD.

 

[Army805]

You're understanding that perfectly.

The CaptureDamage/CaptureWait stuff is the mechanics behind being grabbed that allows wobbling and doubles infinites (1 player grabs, other drill shines/ rapid jabs etc) to exist.
Once you've been hit in a grab, you are placed into CaptureDamage for 20 frames. You cannot escape a grab during this time. Once that has ended, you enter CaptureWait, and if you've mashed enough buttons you immediately start escaping, the wobble has been dropped. CaptureWait doesn't have a set time, it's based on damage and total buttons mashed while in the grab. If you grab someone at 0% vs. at 999% the CaptureWait window will vary.
Worth noting is that button mashing is buffered, meaning that if I mash a ton while I'm getting wobbled 0-100%, and then stop mashing, if my opponent stops wobbling at 200% I'll still escape. Obviously I wasn't mashing from the most recent hit of the wobble to the first whiff, but my previous mashing buffered and I get an immediate release once I enter CaptureWait.

A playthrough would go like this.
Grab, (not enough mashing to escape) pummel (some hit stun is incurred by both Popo and the victim of the grab [not Nana], so they're chilling for like 3 frames) victim enters Capture damage 1, 2, 3... time passing... 14 Boom Nana F-tilt or something (Nana and victim enter hitstun for the hit while Popo continues doing whatever), victim enters Capture damage 1, 2, 3... time passing, 10 (pressed A here to get Popo to pummel it will hit frame 23) 11, 12 ... 19, 20, BOOM ESCAPE! Opponent slides away and stuff. Pummel was started, but Popo takes a while to swing that forehead, so the opponent escapes before it connects and both Popo and the victim go into 30 frames of grab release lag, Nana does whatever, probably repeated taunts or an SD.

Cool thanks. One thing, it says in the original post that when you are hit by a move that does LESS than 6.00% while grabbed you enter CaptureDamage. I'm pretty sure even staled f-tilt does atleast 6% (I should know this lol) but lets say you hit them with an attack that does more than 6% but less than 12% so they stay in the grab, do they still enter CaptureDamage, or do they enter a different "Capture" state/something else?

 

[OddishGuy]

Cool thanks. One thing, it says in the original post that when you are hit by a move that does LESS than 6.00% while grabbed you enter CaptureDamage. I'm pretty sure even staled f-tilt does atleast 6% (I should know this lol) but lets say you hit them with an attack that does more than 6% but less than 12% so they stay in the grab, do they still enter CaptureDamage, or do they enter a different "Capture" state/something else?

I haven't fully read the OP to find what you're talking about, but I'd assume it's saying the same thing actually. Unstaled F-tilt does something like 7%. Moves that hit while and opponent it grabbed do half%. So saying something does less than 6% in a grab or less than 12% out of a grab should be saying the same thing.

 

[Army805]

I haven't fully read the OP to find what you're talking about, but I'd assume it's saying the same thing actually. Unstaled F-tilt does something like 7%. Moves that hit while and opponent it grabbed do half%. So saying something does less than 6% in a grab or less than 12% out of a grab should be saying the same thing.

Ahhhh I see, thanks for the clarification.

 

[S2rulL]

still come back and read this occasionally, still brilliantly written and concise, good **** tomber

 

[Spoo]

This guide is very interesting and it makes me want to pick up the Ice Climbers as a secondary.

 

[S2rulL]

This guide is very interesting and it makes me want to pick up the Ice Climbers as a secondary.

your tag is close enough to sopo so yeah i guess you might as well give it a shot lol

 

[Spoo]

your tag is close enough to sopo so yeah i guess you might as well give it a shot lol

Yeah I got my tag when I was trying to type sopo and made a typo and I thought Spoo was funny.

 

[Tomber]

Just bumping the thread because people seem to be talking a lot about wobbling again, wether or not it should be banned ect.

I addressed this in the last part of the guide, but even though the guide is old my point still stands: It's practically not possible to ban wobbling because it is really hard to distinguish real wobbling from "pseudo-wobbling" which relies on regrab resets (like hand-offs, d-throw-dair-regrab, ect).

If wobbling is banned, ICs should be doing the second punish available to the character which involves a combination of hand-offs + pseudo-wobbling to add up %. If done correctly (which to some degree depends on RNG) a grab will still result in a 0%-to-KO even though it isn't as guaranteed as real wobbling. However, people who are not that familiar with ICs will most probably still think they are getting wobbled even though this isn't the case: indeed, they can't escape the grab (that is when hand-offs are in play) but the ICs player is still following the rules even in the case of wobbling being banned.

In other words, the non-ICs player in this case might think the ICs player is breaking the rules ("wobbling is banned") while the ICs player in fact isn't. This will result in conflicts, ect.

People say "we should ban wobbling". I say "alright, sure - but how?"