Beating Range Spam - Local Meta - Please Assist

[Balance]

So playing here in WV, the best two guys in attendance whenever we have Smash gatherings use Link and Young Link with a strategy of turtling and spamming boomerang, bomb, and arrow in a freakishly fluid stream until you aggro and come to them, whereupon they either grab you during the approach with hookshot or spin if you get inside. Now this may sound stupid to a lot of high level players, but they win their matches almost every time.

No one in this area including myself have developed into a skillset level near the main tournament players. Everyone here can short hop, almost no one wave dashes, and you might see an L cancel now and again from the Links, but there's no SHFFL to be seen by anyone.

That same skill limitation can be said for me as well, though I've recently developed my wavedash grab and can perform it reliably as Marth (my main).

Aside from telling me to just get better, which believe me I am trying, what specific advice can you give me to counter this Link behavior. What strategies would you employ against the Links? What should be my mindset and goal? Should I even be trying to beat them with a melee only character without having developed the advanced techniques?

I greatly appreciate any genuine advice you guys take the time to give me.


As a side note: I've been watching video after video and sit in training mode or cpu vs trying to work these techs, but the barrier to performing them reliably, if at all, just seems incredibly high, especially since I have no on else locally to view or learn it from. I can see what performing an L-Cancel or SHFFL looks like on a youtube video, but I have no idea how it appears when actually done by a pair of hands on a controller and reliably employed. (PS. a pro should make a video of hands doing techniques)

 

[Aly]

A friend of mine plays exactly as you described. He only plays characters with projectiles and has a very strong hit and run tactic with his Link / Samus. As a Marth main I have to weave in and around the relentless barrage of projectiles coming my way and then avoid any punishment if I flub my approach by getting shield grabbed or Up-B'd out of shield.

I'm not sure what character you play but for me I've had to force myself to learn Wavedashing Out of Shield (I use L to shield and use R to air dodge into the ground for wavedashing) to get around projectiles, since you want to approach without taking damage. Properly timed L-Cancels against shields (There are different timings from hitting someone and hitting a shield) so that I can spot dodge his hookshot which has a very long lag recovery in which I can grab him and start a combo.

Mix up your approach. If you're predictable then it is easy to adapt and punish your approach. Dash Dancing can help as a way to fake your opponent out and make them whiff and attack which you can capitalize on and punish.

I'm not sure if this is how the professionals do it, but it is what works for me so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToeI7lbdd1I

A very recent match of Tai (Marth) vs. Germ (Link)

Take note of how Tai is approaching and spacing himself against Germ to where he doesn't give Germ a large amount of space to freely throw projectiles but isn't close enough to take a lot of punishment.

To help out I wrote down a few notes for myself that maybe can help you out.

First 10 seconds - Wavedashing out of Shield to close the gap and help his spacing.
0:50 - Dash dancing with wavedashing to make Germ throw out a move and whiff.
0:53 - Tai keeps link in the air and juggles him to not let him continue his projectile wall.
1:06 - Germ throws out a spin attack and gets punish for it. Analyze your opponent and see if you can figure out their patterns so you have a gut feeling of when they're going to throw a move out.
1:35 - Tai spaces himself correctly so that when Germ tries to hookshot him he can jump out of it. Since the recovery lag is so lengthy for hookshot, Tai gets a free approach.
3:38 - This goes back to recognizing patterns. Tai realizes that Germ likes to throw out Down Smash which has a nice bit of lag that Tai can capitalize on.

I hope this helps, just remember to take a breather and don't let yourself get frustrated.

 

[Balance]

Thanks a lot, that's a great video and solid advice one what to look for. I appreciate it

 

[krazyzyko]

Shiek counters those 2. Master the chaingrab with her down throw. Which is fairly easy compared to the other techs. You can also needle camp which out numbers the link's projectiles.
You can Ftilt and utilt a few times after her down throw and then connect an aerial.

To observe if you L-canceled correctly you can practice with Link's down air which lags alot. You will totally notice.

You can short hop aerial with marth without fast falling and it will auto cancel, except for dair though.

 

[Pritch]

Marth can also just swat most of those projectiles out of the air with his sword (maybe not arrows? can't remember). Get proficient at that and you should find all that flying crap much more manageable.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Quite simply what you need to do is to get in their face and stay there, especially against Link.

 

[Balance]

Well I've been grinding out tech skill for at least an hour every day for the past month with low consistency. I got the wild idea today to pull out an old 14" tube from our basement and use it in the chance that my flatscreen in "game mode" might still be causing input lag. Well, that must have been the case because after an hour of adapting, I was SHFFLing every air with massive consistency and managing quick, powerful follow up combos. I feel like a flood gate was just opened, it's got me excited and I'm hungry for more!

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Switching over to the 14 inch was definitely the right call as basically any newer flat screen is going to have lag, regardless of being in game mode or not.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So playing here in WV, the best two guys in attendance whenever we have Smash gatherings use Link and Young Link with a strategy of turtling and spamming boomerang, bomb, and arrow in a freakishly fluid stream until you aggro and come to them, whereupon they either grab you during the approach with hookshot or spin if you get inside. Now this may sound stupid to a lot of high level players, but they win their matches almost every time.

No one in this area including myself have developed into a skillset level near the main tournament players. Everyone here can short hop, almost no one wave dashes, and you might see an L cancel now and again from the Links, but there's no SHFFL to be seen by anyone.

That same skill limitation can be said for me as well, though I've recently developed my wavedash grab and can perform it reliably as Marth (my main).

Aside from telling me to just get better, which believe me I am trying, what specific advice can you give me to counter this Link behavior. What strategies would you employ against the Links? What should be my mindset and goal? Should I even be trying to beat them with a melee only character without having developed the advanced techniques?

I greatly appreciate any genuine advice you guys take the time to give me.


As a side note: I've been watching video after video and sit in training mode or cpu vs trying to work these techs, but the barrier to performing them reliably, if at all, just seems incredibly high, especially since I have no on else locally to view or learn it from. I can see what performing an L-Cancel or SHFFL looks like on a youtube video, but I have no idea how it appears when actually done by a pair of hands on a controller and reliably employed. (PS. a pro should make a video of hands doing techniques)

These are probably some of the best people to play against when starting out. Great way to put some practical strategy into your game while still learning.

To me it sounds like the punishment game from Ylink/Link is very poor. They only win via repeatedly winning lots of small interactions. Such as chipping you with bombs/arrows/boomerang and occasionally getting slightly more solid hits in such as hookshot or UpB. In other words, you get hit and return to a neutral setting (you are on the ground able to do stuff) probably like a couple dozen times a stock.

Some general things that will be worth learning are wavedash out of shield. Rather quickly after shielding an attack/item. Use platforms to move about quickly and hit Link/Ylink form angles their projectiles cannot cover. By platform usage, I mean to full hop to them and use the wavedash to either slide off it quickly or simply to land straight on it more quickly than hopping and falling back down to land on it. If they charge arrow, get to platform and lol you cannot hit me while you are standing there charging up. Another thing to learn about is probably a simple bait/waiting. If these people like to hookshot/UpB, you can get close to them, then get out of the way quickly. Feint into approaching by getting close enough they wish to use these moves and punish in their lag.

Oh, and another thing is to improve your punishment game. Projectiles do not do much damage on their own or lead into large punishes typically. But, if you get say a grab on them as Marth against Link he takes a large dent to his stock or the whole stock

Again, I like these type of players because it really get good practice at various aspects of smash that few people starting out put time into learning.

Overall, 1) improve your movement/defensive options. I mentioned a few to get around the angles that Ylink/Link cover. 2) once you are able to find your opening you need to punish well. I have no idea who you are using, but I'll assume its someone like marth, sheik, fox, falco, falcon. The typical characters in competitive play pick. All of which also have the ability to move around the stage in a way to find an opening on link/ylink and punish hard (if you do it right).

 

[Balance]

Thanks so much for your thoughts, I'll certainly keep these things in mind.

When wavedashing out of shield, do you completely let go of shield before performing the button combination for wavedash, or do you keep shield held down during the start-up, while using the opposite button (L,R) for wavedash?

Also, how do you recommend approaching spike, off ledge followup, or edge guarding against Link? It seems I have a harder time preventing his return than other characters because of the quick and continuous hits of his Up+B.

 

[Jynx]

The best strategy for projectile camping characters:

Bait, punish, pressure, and space well.

Especially with Link. If they have a bomb, that limits their use of attacks other projectiles, as well as counter strategies. Approach aggressively, bait the bomb throw, space yourself, and if you can get a grab or get within attack range, pressure them until that stock is gone. If they try to disengage so they can get within projectile distance again, bait/read their B-up (Link's real only disengage move) punish him hard for it. Spacing is critical so you can immediately punish his B-up while remaining in range for follow up. You stray too far, he disengages and you lose your momentum and you'll most likely get too far and you'll have to start over again. Get too close, you'll be at a much higher, uneccesary risk or you'll be hit by his disengage options. Follow him until that stock is gone, as you need to be almost hyper-aggressive when dealing with projectile camping players and characters.

My method for WD out if shield is:

> Shield with L, WD with R as jumping out of shield will automatically set you up for a WD, so freeing up your dominant WD hand by using the other hand to shield is highly suggested.

 

[Superspright]

If they have a bomb it does NOT limit any use of their OTHER projectiles--don't listen to this guy unless you want to lose.

 

[Jynx]

If they have a bomb it does NOT limit any use of their OTHER projectiles--don't listen to this guy unless you want to lose.

Oops, I didn't mean other projectiles. Limits use of other attacks. And I guess z-dropping would kind of remedy the problem. Still would hinder his grab+b-up combo.

 

[Superspright]

If you wanna trash Link, then pick Ganondorf, DD and grab him then grab til 75% then bair/fair and edge-guard, GG.

 

[Jynx]

If you wanna trash Link, then pick Ganondorf, DD and grab him then grab til 75% then bair/fair and edge-guard, GG.

Wouldn't laser approaching as Falco and pressuring him super hard also work really well in getting in Link's face?