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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #28: Ike

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The Real Inferno

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Hold A. Win games.

Ike is...weird. When you look at his tools it doesn't appear as if he should be able to do much of anything to most of the cast...and then you see people like San, Mr. Doom, or in the past Kirk, who show up and **** the faces off of people out of nowhere. To reference one in particular, I've seen Mr. Doom take games off of Ally, and go very close with Dojo with Ike in the past in tournament. San does rather amazing things with the character. He has massive range, making his slow moves much harder to punish when you couple that he can follow many of them up with a frame 2 (3?) jab that has really good priority, damage and COMBOS INTO ITSELF on many characters trying to escape it. Ftilt outranges a multitude of moves, such as DDD's Ftilt, and Fair is actually farther reaching that Marth's, which might surprise many. His recovery is...well...uh. It's better than it seems on paper, but there is a video illustrating ways to circumvent it's ledge camping abilities with just about every character in the game. This of course, requires quite a bit of skill, and isn't actually very commonly used.

Ike's spike is very strong and very large. He can spike with both his Up B and dair, allowing him to sometimes net suicide KOs. Water camping can be quite effective with him, especially against characters that do not also have an effective spike. His ledge pressure is pretty amazing thanks to massive hit boxes and, of course, his jab. Wall infinites are effective as well (making Delphino a prime Ike stage for both spikes and infinites). His dash attack works very well with his grabs and can net early kills on stages like Delphino and Castle Siege.

Really, I find it kind of ridiculous he's considered low tier. He outperforms every other single character in low tier. I feel he's held back more by underrepresentation (and yet his tourney results are still higher) and the stigma of being the "nooby wifi character" to a large number of people. He needs to move up at least three to four spots on the next tier list, and keep his spammy jab the hell out of everyone else's low tier tourneys lol
 

Cyphus

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ike is def not low tier. his N.air is amazing and sets up jab/grab/resets. spaced f.airs are safe on shield, and his b.air is his fastest KO move, often surprising people OOS.
All his specials are easily punished, but they all have their own special time and place since he can throw them in the mixup well since he'll mostly be spamming N.air and Jab.
 

TheMike

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Ike's tournament performance is decent and San has shown great work placing high at nationals with a low tier character. Personally, and just like Ness, I think he outperforms his current placement. Not as much as Ness, but he does. In my opinion, Ike is definately middle tier material, more specifically in its bottom. However, his matchups as a whole are terrible. Therefore, I think he shouldn't be higher.
 

Affinity

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Ike is sooo underrated. His jab is amazing.

Inferno pretty much covered everything I was going to say. lol

Name search activated.

Mr. Doom hasn't taken a game off me. Just mad close games.
Just for reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MckwsAOuQK0

Really? I thought he won that Castle Siege game. My mistake. If he sees you call him Doom, he's gonna rage lol
That game on Castle Siege was either Mr. Doom vs UTDZac (which he barely lost), or vs Ally in Iowa (he won[?] Can't remember).
 

Espy Rose

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Ike's jab game is seriously incredible. Combined with that huge range and powerful knockback on pretty much everyone in the game (which complements his sword's range), Ike becomes a fairly difficult character to approach if you are unable to read or capitalize on Ike's moves and pre/post-attack lag.

From what I've seen from San, Doom, Bored, and Kirk in the last year or so, I'm still wondering how such a powerful character is still lurking in the realm of low tiers, when his results and properties pretty much scream for him to be categorized as a mid-tier character.

Match up wise, he seems to struggle against top characters, but I don't think there's many issues when it comes to match ups with the characters he is currently bundled up with. Except possibly Samus.

Ike just doesn't seem like the low tier character he's been said to be.
 

gallax

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Ike is like luigi but with more range and the best jab in the game. AMAZING up close but characters will try to stay away from him unless they have to lol.
 

Marcbri

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I can't think of why Ike is like luigi except they're about the same tier and that they can kill early, everything else is totally different lol.

Ike is by far the best character from the ones we're talking this week, imo he should be around mid tier at ness level at least. His punishment game is way too good, One read airdodge is followed by an fsmash/upsmash kill at around 70/90%. His range with fair and nair makes him hard to approach without projectiles ( with that fair it's impossible to roll behind him, and fast falled nair to jab prevents airdodging into him.)
As everyone will say, his jab is ****, he can rack insane amounts of damage out of it and try to link it to other moves like grab or utilt. In fact good Ike's will read opponents there and punish every jump or roll the opponent makes after they get out of the jab. I once saw rydle jab cancel to fsmash to the opposite side, and his opponent rolled right into the smash lmao.

Btw talking about placings, Rydle has always placed top 16 at europeans tourneys with Ike, and for a long time was ranked 5th in the country going Ike only, although he plays MK now and is ranked second lol. So there we have more people doing well with Ike.

Imo he should be moved to mid tier. People keep saying how bad Ike but Ike keeps doing better and better.

His worst match-up is prolly MK, with the other horrible ones being falco, olimar, D3 and Diddy kong. But these 4 are not that hard as MK imo, I'd put mk at 7-3 and the others at about 65-35.

I'll try to make a post about falco vs Ike later, it's the one match-up I know the most about Ike.
 

Affinity

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Ike's jab game is seriously incredible. Combined with that huge range and powerful knockback on pretty much everyone in the game (which complements his sword's range), Ike becomes a fairly difficult character to approach if you are unable to read or capitalize on Ike's moves and pre/post-attack lag.

From what I've seen from San, Mr. Doom, Bored, and Kirk in the last year or so, I'm still wondering how such a powerful character is still lurking in the realm of low tiers, when his results and properties pretty much scream for him to be categorized as a mid-tier character.

Match up wise, he seems to struggle against top characters, but I don't think there's many issues when it comes to match ups with the characters he is currently bundled up with. Except possibly Samus.

Ike just doesn't seem like the low tier character he's been said to be.
Ike should have never been low tier. I've been saying this ever since the third tier list came out. He shuts down almost every other low tier character; correct me if I'm wrong.

Mid tier character. No doubt.
 

MetalMusicMan

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lmfao, I should have expected you awesome Kansas people to correct everyone saying Doom with Mr. Doom.

The moral of the story here is that Ike is an incredibly under-rated character and Mr. Doom is freaking awesome.

Mr. Doom's Ike isn't even an Ike. It's an abomination that defies the very laws and physics of match-ups.


Be afraid... be very very afraid...

Seriously though-- amazing jab mixups / canceling for damage racking, RIDICULOUS kill power and the ability to pressure opponents and trap them into falling into his smashes (read: not always a gimmick), plus great range on moves like F-air giving him the ability to deal with characters who try to camp/space him.

Ike is definitely a great, solid character who should absolutely not be listed as "low tier" by any stretch of the word.


Also, fantastic video link Affinity-- helps people see what we're talking about.
 

gallax

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I can't think of why Ike is like luigi except they're about the same tier and that they can kill early, everything else is totally different lol.
They are similar because they both are a terror up close with their jabs and what they can do out of it. You arent really gonna try to beat ike face to face unless u have a REALLY good up close game, like luigi. Hes way too good up close.
 

Espy Rose

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I will call Mr. Doom Doom, and he will not like it, but I'll continue to do so anyways.

His SDI is incredible, and his story for why it's so beastly is hilarious.
 

Praxis

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Has anyone given any thought as to how outraged Inui is going to be upon reading this thread?
 

The Real Inferno

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I remember that time Rudey (sp?) beat Inui in a money match with Fox. Man. That was awesome.

As we've all said, Ike has a lot going for him, very basic tools that can get you incredibly far in Brawl. For an example of how Ike's matchups aren't all that bad: last year Mr. Doom had a series of MMs with Fino's Olimar. Fino won these matches, though several of the games were quite close. This year at SLAST, Fino lost two consecutive sets to Mr. Doom's Ike, which says a lot for Ike's viability against Olimar, considering both of these guys are great players. (Don't tell Fino I ever said anything nice about him /namesearch). Very good players are doing exceptionally well, and I believe overall the Ike community is starting to pick up and place better in tournament. Ike is deserving of a low seat in the middle tiers right now, but I honestly would not be surprised to see him rise further in the future should he continue to keep rising in viability.
 

Crow!

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What's bad about Ike? Link mains have always just believed the BBR put Ike in low tier so the high tier players could activate easy mode and win low tier tourneys too with less effort. I'd like to think this isn't the case, but that does require some explanation.
 

DMG

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Ike is bad. SDI Jabs more and better.

Bait Ike. Make him approach. Don't do the work for him please.

Have him near the bottom of mid tier. Below Shiek and PT, above Ness maybe.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I remember being really blown away the last BBR tier list (before I was in the BBR) about where you guys put Ike. It was just... was anyone even thinking when that was done?

In agreement with what everyone else has said, Ike is in no way low tier but does fit in the mid tiers quite nicely. He has the best jab in the game (it's not more SDIable than anyone else's jab), and his range is beastly, all around the best in the game. Hitting about as hard as Ganon helps him out too, and he's a decently heavy character. He's pretty slow all around, he's pretty easy to juggle, and his recovery is pretty bad (though not Link bad). Those factors really do hold him back a lot and prevent him from ever plausibly exceeding mid tier, and Ike is looking at an uphill battle against high tier characters who can camp him out. Of course, having the strong positives he has at least make him a constant threat, which is more than can be said for the characters he's currently aside.

To talk about a match-up I feel pretty confident about, Ike vs G&W is very close to even. At super close ranges, Ike's jab beats everything G&W has, and if you try to play careful spacing games, Ike outspaces G&W with his ridiculous fair (Ike fair outranges G&W fair and bair). G&W has to focus on exploiting his mobility advantage, getting as much damage as he can when he gets Ike juggled (just don't get overzealous and let Ike dair or Eruption right through a fishbowl, not that hard to avoid but a factor), and gimping Ike whenever possible. If you can get away with planking and do it just right, it's going to push things a bit in G&W's favor, but don't mess up since Ike is a character who can easily punish a planking mistake with an instant kill at any percent. Regardless though, this one is pretty close to even; it's a fun match-up.
 

Praxis

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What's bad about Ike? Link mains have always just believed the BBR put Ike in low tier so the high tier players could activate easy mode and win low tier tourneys too with less effort. I'd like to think this isn't the case, but that does require some explanation.
I just remember Inui going on angry rants about how horrible Ike was and how he plays Ike all the time and Ike loses 99-1 to Diddy and 98.5-1.5 against MK and mocking anyone who argued...

<3InuiWhenYouReadThis<3

That said; Ike isn't a great character. He significantly loses speed when you camp him; his approach tools aren't amazing, it's his close up game that is fantastic, and he uses his range on moves like nair and the threat of dash attacks and people's tendency to shield in fear as a manner of approaching. If you play incredibly gay, his flaws start to shine.

Probably why DMG is so quick to call Ike bad. I don't even know what Ike would do against a Wario that just ran away all the time.
 

TheTantalus

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Ike is block and punish. You block, then punish. Thats it.

Trouble is, ike is good at baiting you to think he's going to block. I think Ike on the same tier as luigi/dk/zss would be about correct.
 

Kewkky

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I think Ike is very nice. His being 'amazing' is only relative to the characters around him, and not exactly meaning he's amazing compared to the rest of the roster. I have no idea why Ike has always been in low tiers, what with these crazy good Ikes popping up all over the place and showing that even 'low tiers' can compete with the best of the best.

His recovery kills him. He's so easy to gimp... His vertical recovery has barely any horizontal momentum, and he falls faster than he goes horizontally. What with his second jump being lacking offstage, you just hit him once with anything and it's gg's. His overall slow on-stage movement also hinders him against stuff like camping: start-up on punishment attacks, walking/running speed, move commitment... You can't just play an entire match with jabs and throws.

I see Ike as a moving hitbox... His attacks have a lot of reach and power, so you have to be careful whenever you try approaching. If you manage to knock him offstage at around stage level, and your character has a decent edgeguard game, that's it for Ike. I think san, Mr. Doom, and all the other great Ikes are very good and stuff... But they just dance around their weaknesses, they're still there. And that's the reason why Ike can't perform better than what he's doing right now: people catch onto the weaknesses too fast, and no matter how good of a player the Ike mainer is, he's just gotta live with the fact that his character's weaknesses are easy to exploit with the viables.


I'd say move him out of low tier. he definitely doesn't belong there. I'd put him a tier above for now, I still can't see him in the same tier as Luigi/Peach/Fox, and I think his surprises compare more to Sonic's/PT's/Ness's than other people in higher tiers.
 

Teran

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Ike is actually a well balanced character. Great power, range, and setups as well as an awesome jab. He's actually harder to punish than most people would believe. Giant range makes up for the slowness of some of his moves.

He's just got the weaknesses that balance out his strengths, which basically makes you a mid tier character in Brawl.
 

Pierce7d

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In the past Powershielding has been a mantra of power against Ike. However, Ike is a relatively popular character considering his standing, and I refuse to continue to condemn him to low tier while spouting Powershield sermons, until someone starts doing it. It's 2010, and he's on the rise. I'll let him drop when people actually start powershielding his stuff on reaction.
 

The Real Inferno

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I think this is the first time I've seen this many members of the BBR agreeing on something. Hell must have frozen over.

To elaborate. I don't think Ike is ready for anything more than the lower mid-tier yet. He just needs to scoot up several spots to settle in there, then probably be adjusted up or down as the meta game continues. I mean, if he really does just keep getting better, I guess he could work all the way up to middle of mid (he wouldn't be the only character with a crappy-on-paper recovery in there by far), but it's just as likely people might start figuring him out and busting Ike back down.
 

DMG

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Probably not. You can SDI a nice distance from his Jabs. Up, away, Towards, Down, whatever you pick usually will get you away.
 

Kewkky

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Its sad how it's easy to say everyone should SDI Ike's jabs, because when we see people getting hit by his jab they fail to actually SDI it. That's a vast majority of players right there.
 

ShadowLink84

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Probably not. You can SDI a nice distance from his Jabs. Up, away, Towards, Down, whatever you pick usually will get you away.
As kewkky said, many people try to SDI it and fail, so most likely wile it is possible, the widow is rather small and makes SDIing more difficult. It can be done yes, but is it reasonable to expect everyone to do so? Not really.

Ike is certainly a character that would fit well within the bottom of mid tier. He has incredible range, an awesome jab game, but the fact that most of his moves take forever to come out is truly a hindrance to him. Jabbing can only get so much done, hence why he is so much better than a low tier character, and yet not on the same level as a character like Dk or Marth.


Off stage, Ike is just terrible, if you do not manage to gimp Ike, you should at least have hit him once to inflict damage.
The margin of error when it comes to recovering is also small for Ike as well. If he Up B's too high, you can dash below the sword and edgehog him.
Too low and you can spike him.



Edit: oh, by the way, I believe one of the quotes in my sig links to the boards reaction when Rudey beat Inui with Fox.
 

DMG

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They not trying hard enough then. Me and Mr. Doom laugh at them.

It's reasonable IMO to expect someone to be able to SDI after the second Jab that lands on them. The first sure you can miss it, hard to SDI unless you know your spacing is off and start ahead of time. The second one ok sure, you are just now seeing that you are in that position, maybe caught off guard. Past that though, yes I would expect someone to SDI the next Jab especially in that "Jab Jab Jab" to the edge scenario. There are some exceptions, like not SDIing on purpose to try and throw the Ike Off (Mr Doom and I when we play he expects the SDI to happen on Jab 1 or 2 and a lot of times I would go behind him, so he would turn around and jab that way every few jabs to see if he caught me. Stuff like that) in either mixups or grabs. Sometimes you just eat the full combo on purpose and DI the right way, usually at the edge to avoid dying from something else. Most of the time though, seeing more than 2-3 jabs in 1 string hit is painful to watch.
 

san.

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One thing I would like to mention that hasn't been said yet, is that Ike has a supposed guaranteed backthrow to dash attack on most characters ~mid 20s to mid 80s. With a pummel, that is around a guaranteed 18%. Not only that, but back throw --> dash attack covers a great distance, having a VERY high chance of sending them offstage (or near it), and one of Ike's favorite positions to attack.

I disagree about Ike getting gimped easily offstage. Only characters who can are quick characters with nice and fast disjoints on their aerials like Marth and MK, and that is only when Ike DIs in a situation where he must double jump and aether and barely make the stage. A failed attempt to gimp Ike results in a possible spike by his aether. If one tries to grab the edge, Ike can aether the other way, and it can actually drag you offstage for a spike. This also negates most counters and reflect-moves.

SDIing out of Ike's jabs is actually pretty tricky. There is no guarantee you can SDI out of Ike's first frame-3 jab. Ike doesn't even need to jab again, because on floatier characters, Ike can easily up tilt (which has a really high chance to sweetspot), grab (to bthrow to dash attack), or a possible back air as a mixup. Because of this, often times it is possible to get jab-->uptilt kills fairly often on the lightweights who don't always SDI the first jab. Ike also has more than enough time to block or in some cases uptilt if you decide to hit him with an aerial, so it's best to get away and reset the situation.

At low percents, ~0-30, nair easily strings into jab, uptilt, or back air. Nair to back air works at even higher percents if the opponent is hit by the back side of nair.

Recovering against Ike is not a free pass usually, because Ike does not have to commit to go far offstage to reach you. Ike can full hop fair and reach far distances without barely leaving the stage, leaving a double jump to continue or go back. Air dodging also is not a good option in general when avoiding this, so usually opponents are better off recovering low where they only need to worry about a possible dair which isn't that safe against a few characters or simple ledge grab.

One thing people don't do enough is attack Ike's aether. Most characters can't do much about it, but those with decent aerial movement and quick disjointed aerials (as I explained above), can make it a pain. Some characters with the disjointed bairs, marth and his fair, and MK with many things can go through. Luckily, Ike can move a surprising horizontal distance (well surprising compared to no horizontal distance), so that characters must be pretty fast to get consistent hits in on aether or get hit by it, which is why I whittled the list down to marth and MK and possibly a few others.

I also think the powershielding thing is a little overrated as far as tactics goes. Only ones who greatly benefit are those with a nice ground speed or a really quick and disjointed attack out of shield. If Ike relies on nair, jab, and bair most of the time, he will have much more success against shields in general.

When Ike is offstage, his fall speed is pretty good, and his aether mostly covers a vertical distance, so with correct DI, sometimes it is easier to dive bomb below the stage (usually with an aerial) and recover then. On stages with a curve near the ledge like battlefied, aether goes a much farther distance, offering an easier time to recover. Luckily for us, most stages are like that, which greatly aids us when trying to get back to the stage.
 

Nidtendofreak

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O_O

HOLY CRAP, I have nothing to argue against! I guess I can put away this flamethower now...until A2 or Inui comes along. Seriously, can any mod reading this just infract A2 the moment he sticks his head into this topic? He's basically the reason why the Ike boards rarely talk to the other boards about their opinions on MUs: he kept sticking his head in and going "lulz, just PS everything not jab, take your Ganondorf MU ratio and make it #5 worse". We already know his incorrect opinion, there is no reason to see it now.

The only thing I'd like to point out as wrong is the comment that Diddy Kong is hard for Ike. He's not really, it's in the 40-60/45-55 range. Ike has his amazing DACIT as a nice surprise against Diddy Kong (Why hello there Fsmash sliding across most of the stage), can KO Diddy much sooner than Diddy can KO him, ect.

Points I'd like to add:

-Ike has a very good CP game. There are only 3 stages you could really argue as bad for Ike. I think Smashville is too small and compact for Ike to work well there, but I'm basically the only one who thinks that. Many believe FD is bad for Ike, but if the opponent has no projectiles this stage can work well for Ike thanks to him outranging them with Fair. And then there is Frigate Orpheon, and even then a few Ikes like the stage. Every other stage has an undeniable use for Ike in at least a few MUs, even Jungle Japes and Rainbow Cruise.

-Ike also has Fthrow -> Dash Attack as a true combo, but a much smaller % range. About 20%-30%, and it ends about the same time as Bthrow -> Dash Attack

-Ike's Jab can be hard to SDI if you screw it up. If you don't SDI far enough away and happen to jump at the same time, the next Jab 1 will hit you, and force you into landing lag if you hit the ground. And then there are all of the lovely things San talked about. It's "easy on paper, hard in reality" like SDIing Snake's Ftilt. Only slightly harder as it's faster.

-Ike's MUs aren't as horrible as once thought. We used to have Olimar, D3, and Falco all as 3-7. However, over time they have proven to be all in the 35-65 range, along with Marth. MK is a serious pain though, 3-7 without a doubt. San thinks he can figure out the MU with a day or so of playing against a good MK.

-Ike loves killing Airdodges. Nair, Fair, and Usmash oh my!

BTW: Why was Ike below Lucas of all characters last tier list? Was it seriously EC votes as I was told when I asked about it?
 

theeboredone

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One of the first posts talking about how Mr. Doom took Fino's Olimar is a bit of a biased post per say. In general, Ike mains struggle hard against Olimars. Honestly, if both players are equally skilled, then Olimar should be winning hands down barring any SD's or stage shenanigans. I think we put the MU 70-30 in Olimar's favor.

I think Ike's main weakness is the fact he has trouble with a lot of the upper tier chars. Falco, MK, DDD are the first to come into mind. He does stand a chance against the likes of Diddy, G&W, Snake, and Wario. However, all it takes is a bad stage for Ike, and the tables can turn. That's another one of Ike's weaknesses. Assuming you play with the MLG list, Ike has a lot of stages he can perform on, but at the same time, become dominated judging by what char is used. For example, Ike is good on Brinstar, but G&W has a lot of gimmicks that make him tough to beat on that stage.

So basically, Ike's best stage options come down to neutrals in general.

Tl;dr

Olimar match up is tough.
High tiers can beat Ike.
Can easily be CP'ed.
 

san.

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After playing a few olimars recently, I think it's around 40:60 tbqh. Advantages are pretty much the same, but I don't think they're as crippling as once thought (for instance, shield grab, and the effectiveness of pikmin throw), and we actually have some gimmicks. Same with falco.

I think Marth and DDD are 35:65 (I think I'm missing 1 more but I forget). I tried to logic out DDD being easier, but despite everything we can do, DDD gains too much of a reward through 1 grab, and avoiding the grab is feasible but difficult with his grab range/grab armor, etc. MK imo is 30:70 from so many things MK can theoretically do (some things I haven't seen mid-match yet). Things could be better, but I usually view things in the worse case along the lines of what they can us than vice versa.

I also think Ike does decent on pretty much every stage except FD. I don't like FD because it conflicts with my personal style, and I think Ike's much more predictable with everything on that stage. Ike is decent at utilizing most gimmicks on stages-->platforms (up air, nair, bair), walkoffs (bthrow-->dash attack), moves/throws that work well with interactive stages. Ike's only hindered by how well another character does on a stage.
 
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