BBR MU Chart v3 DK Panel

[Luigi player]

Hey everyone, I’m Luigi player and will be leading your character’s panel for the BBR Match-Up Chart v3.

The current panelists for this panel are:
- Luigi player (leader)
- Sold2
- Neon!
- 1PokeMastr
- Broccoli Kong (Will)


We are limited to five panelists for this project, and are looking for active and knowledgeable members of the character community to help fill our remaining openings. If you would like to join the panel for this character, please make a post demonstrating your interest in this thread, along with what would make you a desirable panelist. Keep in mind that debating skills are important for all panel members, and those with poor behavior will be ejected from the project if complaints arise.

If you have any questions or concerns regarding this panel or its activities, feel free to post them in this thread. You may also PM me or Ish if you would rather speak to one of us privately. Panelist selections will be finalized in a week or two, at which point we will begin discussing which match-ups to change in the panelist subforum.

 

[Neon!]

I would like to join this panel. Here are my qualifications:

-I was a previous panelist for matchup chart v2
-I'm one of the only active DK mains in the U.S.
-I've attended tournaments since late 2010
-I'm knowledgeable in many matchups and currently own the DK video thread

I've actually been looking forward to contributing to the new matchup chart since there are a number of ratios that I believe we got wrong last time. These cluster of lower ratios contributed to DK's dramatic drop on the current tier list.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I would also like to join the Dk panels for the BBR.
- I know many of Dk's Mus.
- Very good at debating and I stay very calm when I talk.
- One of the only active Dk's in Canada ( Attila is more active and better than me, Mar1 might be better, but he's not active ).
- I speak to Will a lot about Dk and his Mu's and do testing for Dk.
- I've been using Dk in Tourneys since early 2010 when I started going to tournaments.
And I'm a friendly person overall.


I'd really like to be a panelist for the Dk boards, he's not as bad as people think he is.

 

[DtJ S2n]

We've got to get Will in on this, for real. And I'll volunteer myself.
-DK player since 2010.
-My placings are legit for real just look at the results thread. And I'm one of the more active DKs currently.
-Midwest pride. I'm experienced vs a large diversity of mid-tier characters and some odder match-ups. Also I think I'm the only midwest DK.
-DK board mod. I've seen pretty much every post made in the DK boards for the past year and a half.
-Decisive Games board mod. Lots of experience debating.

I know in past discussions I've said things like "I disagree with literally everybody" and left it at that but I promise I'll take this discussion entirely seriously.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Good stuff, was hoping Poke and S2 would get on board. I'd do this, but the MU's I'm experienced in don't matter, and I can't talk for balls. Hopefully Will gets in on this, haha. Don't see why not.

 

[DKwill]

I'm more than willing to participate! Seems like you guys can vouch for me haha. I'd be willing to try and list credentials if you'd like.

- Though I haven't been extremely active as of late on the DK boards, I have contributed through matchup specific posts describing matchups over the years.
Notably DK vs G&W, MK, Marth, Sonic, etc.

- I'm the author of several matchup specific threads, including one pertaining to questions on G&W vs DK (I've played Vinnie's G&W countless times in tournament since 2009)

- I've been ranked since NY was it's own region, and am currently ranked 10th in NY/NJ.

- I recently placed 5th in Brawl Singles at a national going all DK (WHobo 4).

- I've been active since Brawl's competitive conception in early 2008.

- I've actively taken part in testing new techniques for DK, and regularly contact Poke concerning frame testing for new concepts.

 

[Attila the Hun]

I'm more than willing to participate! Seems like you guys can vouch for me haha. I'd be willing to try and list credentials if you'd like.

- Though I haven't been extremely active as of late on the DK boards, I have contributed through matchup specific posts describing matchups over the years.
Notably DK vs G&W, MK, Marth, Sonic, etc.

- I'm the author of several matchup specific threads, including one pertaining to questions on G&W vs DK (I've played Vinnie's G&W countless times in tournament since 2009)

- I've been ranked since NY was it's own region, and am currently ranked 10th in NY/NJ.

- I recently placed 5th in Brawl Singles at a national going all DK (WHobo 4).

- I've been active since Brawl's competitive conception in early 2008.

- I've actively taken part in testing new techniques for DK, and regularly contact Poke concerning frame testing for new concepts.

* - And you are Will. <3

 

[Ruinn]

luigi player, will, 1poke, sold2, neon

there is your panelists.

 

[Luigi player]

Yes looks very good. Discussions will be fun this time it seems, as long as everyone will be active enough!

 

[Attila the Hun]

Yes looks very good. Discussions will be fun this time it seems, as long as everyone will be active enough!

loldkboards.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I'm active! T^T

Excluding the 4 hour nap I just had.

 

[Neon!]

I literally posted more than every other DK player combined in the matchup chart discussion last year.

I even have a list of all my opinions on every matchup in a powerpoint haha. (Just numbers not write-ups)

In other words, I'm ready

 

[Neon!]

In the interest of instigating discussion I'll post my opinions on our matchups.

Current:


-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:


Ratios that I believe are wrong
-1, 0
-2, -1
+2, +3
+2, +1
+2, +1

Ratios that might be wrong
-3, -2
-2, -1
-2, -1
-1, 0
Numbers in red reflect my opinion.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Following what Neon did, I'll use his template and post my opinions that have changed since the last I said them.
Current:


-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Numbers in red reflect my opinion.

Ratios that I believe are wrong:
-1, 0
0, +1
-1, 0


Ratios that might be wrong:
-3, -2
-2, -1
-2, -1
-1, 0
-2, -1
0, +1

 

[DtJ S2n]

Neon I accidentally goofed your post but I'm pretty sure I got it to the way it was. Anyways, I'll follow suit on this.

Ratios I believe are wrong.
-3 -> -2
-2 -> -1~0 (Oh man am I bold enough to claim this)
-1 -> At least even
-1 -> 0
0 -> +1
0 -> +1
0 -> +1
0 -> +2

Ratios that might be wrong
-2 -> Something else ffs.
-1 -> 0
0 -> +1
-2 -> -3

Bolded the ones I really feel for.

 

[Ayce God]

+1 ? blasphemy

 

[Luigi player]

I probably shouldn't even post my MU changes because they are so many and everyone will see (-> think) that I'm overrating DK way too much.

We also can't talk about too many MUs, there will be a limit, but what you guys posted should be okay.

 

[Neon!]

I probably shouldn't even post my MU changes because they are so many and everyone will see (-> think) that I'm overrating DK way too much.

We also can't talk about too many MUs, there will be a limit, but what you guys posted should be okay.

There are certain matchups that seem really easy until you play someone who knows it well. For example I thought wario was near even until I played Bassem who had nearly perfected the CG, we had close matches nonetheless because DK severely out ranges wario.

I also used to think we beat Link +2 solidly but I have recently changed my mind after playing a tourney set with ALSM who plays the matchup proficiently. Link shouldnt be the aggressor in that matchup, he has plenty of tools to keep dk away and a spot dodge that is difficult to punish when spaced outside of DK's grab range. His zair is also significanctly more effective than toon links because it is much safer and has two hitboxes. Link still has a hard time offstage against DK lending us a solid +1 against him.

 

[Luigi player]

There are certain matchups that seem really easy until you play someone who knows it well. For example I thought wario was near even until I played Bassem who had nearly perfected the CG, we had close matches nonetheless because DK severely out ranges wario.

I also used to think we beat Link +2 solidly but I have recently changed my mind after playing a tourney set with ALSM who plays the matchup proficiently. Link shouldnt be the aggressor in that matchup, he has plenty of tools to keep dk away and a spot dodge that is difficult to punish when spaced outside of DK's grab range. His zair is also significanctly more effective than toon links because it is much safer and has two hitboxes. Link still has a hard time offstage against DK lending us a solid +1 against him.

After playing mr r's link i also changed my mind about that mu... I can see it being even, but since i don't have too much exp. i will mostly just agree with what others think.

I can't see wario being that bad because of outranging and koing him really early. And I've played a wario that can do the cg. It's difficult for him to grab us if we play save and approaching us is very hard for wario.

I would go for -1 but nobody agrees with that anyway so it doenst matter for the chart.

But we should probably leave these discussions for later..

 

[1PokeMastr]

I'm with Luigi Player on leaving them for later.
BUT. I agree that Wario would only be a -1 when Dk plays safe. However, Dk can play safe in any Mu, and when he plays unsafe. It'd be a -3, -2, Etc.

 

[DtJ S2n]

There's just so much wrong with the Wario match-up. Getting combo'd into the grab is ridiculous and entirely possible, his ability to kill ridiculously early (and also not allowing us to up-b brake), his ability to shield poke our terrible shield, and his maneuverability to get around our spacing. And also bite beats a majority of our options when used well.

Our grab releases are entirely nasty, yeah. And b-air spacing does force him to approach at awkward angles, sure. I just don't see how you can keep out a character as mobile as Wario. They're not just going to run into the b-airs, it's so obvious. And eventually they'll get in with something simple. A good airdodge, getting to the ground and dash shielding through, just going entirely above it, and suddenly the grab (or any move that'll combo into it) is really relevant.

And then what's even more annoying is I believe we lose on the counterpicks in this match-up. Wario is really good on any stage we'd ever want to pick, and Yoshi's will get banned. And then they can choose something like Frigate, or whatever other stage forces close range combat for them.

 

[1PokeMastr]

That's why Dk should use Bair/ F-Tilt/ U-Tilt to keep Wario at bay and time a pivot grab when Wario tries to get in. Dk by no means has any reason to chase after that Piece of Hovering Garlic. And the only time I see him killing us early is when we're high up and we've used Up B and He Uairs or when he reads us with a Fart. Although, the releases we have on Wario balance it out. I mean, if he didn't have a CG. I'd say it's even/ but because it's in place. I'd say it's -1, -2 at the worst.

 

[Luigi player]

DKs jab is also > Wario if he approaches from the air lol

The 2nd hit hits right where Wario would want to be.

 

[DKwill]

Since Wario doesn't have much range, DK's grounded up-b is often a good option as an anti-air in addition to reverse up tilt. Both moves catch him before his up air will even come out, and can clip him before his other aerials will even connect.

When Wario no longer has a double jump, grounded up-b will eat his airdodge and beat out most everything aside from a well spaced bite (or waft if he has one, obviously).

 

[DtJ S2n]

I can't budge on it being better than -2. We do have a lot of good options to space him away, but everything except good b-airs and well spaced f-tilts is punishable on whiff or shield . Not to mention how difficult it is to space properly vs one of the most aerially mobile characters in the game. And even if they don't get a guaranteed punish off the mistake, they'll get in close enough for Bite or the CG to be extremely threatening and close enough for their poor range to be irrelevant. We get CGed, juggled, killed early (for DK). We win in the neutral game but it only takes one mistake for us to take 100%.

Hell, I'll even bring up that if they're good with tires and get them out, that gives them a lot of versatile, easy approach options that pressure us to where we can't set-up our b-airs or f-tilts, and leads to either highly damaging or a straight out kill combos.

Any situation that's not neutral footing with tires uninvolved or him being on the edge is (very) bad for us. And he has all the tools he need to get past the neutral game of ten enough to win solid.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Also catching tires by accident is super frustrating, lol.

 

[DtJ S2n]

I think I lost my laptop charger so my activity here may plummet.

 

[Seagull Joe]

My opinion from watching 's and looking at facts:

Current:

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:


-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Changes:
from -2 to -1
from 0 to +1
from -1 to 0
from +3 to +2
from 0 to -1
from 0 to +1

I feel gets beaten by because of mere ability to outrange and actually kill him. 's finally learned they don't need to approach and can use their aerial mobility to their advantage to make this matchup a -2 from a -3. vs is even and there is no reason one has an advantage over the other. Godzilla vs King Kong is even rofl. is a bull**** character for to approach and it's hard, which is why I gave it to . beats because gets outranged by lol.

 

[Ruinn]

i still stand by my theory that dk vs kirby is +4 kirby

i mean once youre offstage you lose your stock

 

[1PokeMastr]

i still stand by my theory that dk vs kirby is +4 kirby

i mean once youre offstage you lose your stock

This goes for any character that has a Dair/ Fair Spike vs Dk.

 

[Neon!]

i still stand by my theory that dk vs kirby is +4 kirby

i mean once youre offstage you lose your stock

You guys must be recovering wrong, I've played at least 5 tourney sets with Y.b.M. and I've only been gimped once.

 

[Ruinn]

You guys must be recovering wrong, I've played at least 5 tourney sets with Y.b.M. and I've only been gimped once.

Please record your games and show us

 

[Neon!]

Please record your games and show us

This is the only match I have recorded of us playing but neither of us were playing particularly well. This happens to be the match I was referring to earlier and is the only time I remember ybm gimping me. It occurs near 2:18 and it could have been easily avoided but I wasn't able to cancel my charge (R button refused to work )so I ended up too low when trying to recover.

As in most edge-guarding situations they key to recovering with dk is too immediately turn your back to the stage with reverse charge or side-b and defend your recovery with bair. If kirby is obviously trying to get above you to attempt a dair usually dk's rising bair will beat/trade with it and if you've DI'd correctly you should have enough height to recover. If kirby is baiting the DJ bair then you should be able to fast fall-up-b to the ledge. DK's ability to stall with up-b is also helpful because kirby's will often dair as soon as they see the up-b, this often leads to a situation in which kirby's dair completely whiffs and kirby ends up taking 5-10% from DK's up-b.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Honestly, all any character has to do is wait for the Up B and then time the dair from above. Just like Marth's do when they spike Dk out of Up B. They just wait for it, then time it.

If Kirby is already out there jumping when you're off stage, they're not waiting and they're asking to fail.
Although, most people don't wait for the Up B, and they get hit anyway.

And Dk being that low in the first place would mean that he Di'd down. Or it was a move that sends us on that Angle and Di doesn't affect it that much.


But Neon is right. If we stall/ mix it up. We should make it back to the stage safely.

 

[ぱみゅ]

i still stand by my theory that dk vs kirby is +4 kirby

i mean once youre offstage you lose your stock

bump because loldkboards

To be fair, you're Donkey Kong, with your survability and pretty good air speed, I don't see you having to recover low, or using your Up-B too far away from the ledge. Specially against Kirby, who doesn't have an horizontal-knocking attack, or a good air speed.

 

[Attila the Hun]

HEY! No posting, we need to keep up our lazy image.

When do MU chart talks actually start? Shouldn't you guys be going at it talking about MU's by now in preparation?

 

[1PokeMastr]

Actually, I don't think Luigi player has been active since the posts from a while back.
I've checked out other BBR Mu V3 Recruit thread thingies.
And they've been active, saying who'll/ who is on it now.

So hopefully the Dk boards SHOULD get something soon.

 

[Ayce God]

I just wanted to ask why is mk -3? is it solely bc of tornado and off stage?

 

[1PokeMastr]

I honestly think it's a -2, -1 MAY be pressing my luck.

-1 or almost no Mk knows the Mu properly, though Nado on stage isn't a huge issue for Dk. But when Dk has to land. Then it becomes an issue. And same as off stage, he can Dair/ Sour Spot Nair/ Shuttle Loop/ Nado Dk and he can easily take +50% off stage. You may not gimp him, but getting back on stage is a huge Pain for Dk.

 

[Neon!]

I'm advocating -2 for the mk matchup now as well, I'll explain later. I finished an awesome new design for a new matchup thread that will debut this weekend seeing as I'm currently on vacation and have no Internet.