BBR MU Chart Sweets

Sinister Slush

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#1
Kinda late, but after seeing the MU chart, myself not agreeing with some matchups and actually playing those characters a bit from other players.
I decided to make a Thread. (Also hopefully a way to make this place a little alive with some discussion on what we think is Right or Wrong)
If you wish to see The Original Match Up Chart.
Here it Be.
For How they rated Yoshi's Match ups, Feast your Eyes on it below.


:yoshi2:
-3: :lucario:
-2: :metaknight: :diddy: :falco: :marth: :toonlink: :fox: :wolf:
-1: :snake: :wario: :pikachu2: :dedede: :gw: :zerosuitsamus: :kirby2: :rob: :pit: :peach: :sheilda: :ike: :sheik:
0: :olimar: :dk2: :luigi2: :ness2: :mario2: :samus2:
1: :popo: :sonic: :lucas: :falcon: :zelda:
2: :pt: :jigglypuff: :link2:
3: :bowser2: :ganondorf:

[collapse=What Do The Numbers MEAN!?]
-3: Lucario
-2: Medium Disadvantage
-1: Small Disadvantage
0: Even
+1: Small Advantage
+2: Medium Advantage
+3: Large Advantage/Hard Counter
[/collapse]

So after awhile I thought this list was pretty accurate. But after about Three Tournaments since the chart was released, I started getting a different view on quite a few characters.

[collapse=Matchups That Could be Higher/Lower]
:peach: Original: -1
Opinion: 0/Even
- Despite myself only playing 4 Peaches and one of them being Illmatic. I still see this as A possibly Even matchup depending on how hard we read Peach, if we correctly camp her, Space Bairs like we do with ZSS, and outspace ourselves from Peach's moves. Probably just me being biased, but in my MM with Illmatic I always got him to last stock last hit, even on game 2 I DownB'ed him but his USmash came out first so he got the hit on me yet I somehow got the Hit on him as well.

:sheik: Original: -1
Opinion: 0/Even
- Of course i've never played any real Sheik mains since the only Sheik players i've gone up against is Polt's Sheilda, and Nike's Sheik. What I notice is, as long as we don't play stupidly, Try to challenge her offstage, and leave ourselves open using moves with alot of lag (Like Egg throw DSmash or DownB). I could see this as an Even MU.

:noness: Original: 0/Even
Opinion: +1/Small Advantage
- I think it's +1 our Favor, I don't have any good reasons since i've only played 1 Ness player that doesn't main him. But Camping, Egglay, getting USmashes out of GR, Avoiding Dair as much as possible, and being careful not to run into Ness's Retreating Fair is pretty much what I do to win this MU.


:diddy: Original: -2
Opinion: -1/Small Disadvantage
- Only played 1 Diddy main and probably 5 others who uses him for a secondary.
All the Nanner shenanigans we have can pretty much control this MU a bit better than most characters, of course we don't have as much control as Diddy does with Glide tossing and such. Just like ROB and us having the Gyro and basically controlling the MU a bit more, If we keep even One nanner in our hands we should be able to handle Diddy Pretty well.

:luigi2: Original: 0/Even
Opinion: -1/Small Disadvantage
- I've played 3 Luigi players, One of them being The only Luigi mains i've played, (But might as well be the Only one needed) Big Lou. He almost 3 stocked me in our matches back at MLG Dallas, and despite being pretty light and having the sliding problem. I still see this as his Favor by just -1. Cause as long as the Luigi outreads us, he has this in the bag.[/collapse]

These are just my opinions, don't rage too hard in this very late thread.
 

Red Ryu

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#3
-3: Lucario
-2: Medium Disadvantage
-1: Small Disadvantage
0: Even
+1: Small Advantage
+2: Medium Advantage
+3: Large Advantage/Hard Counter
Made me laugh, not gonna lie. ;)

Surprised people agree with that so easily.
 

Sinister Slush

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#4
One thing that jumped out at me reading this post. This says nothing about the match-up; it just means that from your experience in the match-up, your opponent outplayed you.

:005:
Of course he outplayed me, It's Big Lou.
I don't have much to be writing a small writeup in the opening. But i'll state a few things I noticed.
His FSmash kills us SO EARLY, His Uair, Nair, and Bair is good at hitting Yoshi's Nose, His Jab followups are great, And his Utilt is pretty annoying. The first time I was hit by it, I thought i'd be able to beat his Second Utilt with Nair but it failed...


Made me laugh, not gonna lie. ;)

Surprised people agree with that so easily.
You must namesearch Lucario to be in our humble board.

 

Airborne

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#6
So after awhile I thought this list was pretty accurate. But after about Three Tournaments since the chart was released, I started getting a different view on quite a few characters.

Match-Ups I think is 0/+1
Shiek 0/Even - Of course i've never played any real Shiek mains since the only Shiek players i've gone up against is Polt's Shielda, and Nike's Shiek. What I notice is, as long as we don't play stupidly, Try to challenge her offstage, and leave ourselves open using moves with alot of lag (Like Egg throw DSmash or DownB). I could see this as an Even MU.

Ness +1/Small Advantage - I think it's +1 our Favor, I don't have any good reasons since i've only played 1 Ness player that doesn't main him. But Camping, Egglay, getting USmashes out of GR, Avoiding Dair as much as possible, and being careful not to run into Ness's Retreating Fair is pretty much what I do to win this MU.

Match-Ups I think is -1
Diddy Kong - Only played 1 Diddy main and probably 5 others who uses him for a secondary.
All the Nanner shenanigans we have can pretty much control this MU a bit better than most characters, of course we don't have as much control as Diddy does with Glide tossing and such. Just like ROB and us having the Gyro and basically controlling the MU a bit more, If we keep even One nanner in our hands we should be able to handle Diddy Pretty well.

Luigi - I've played 3 Luigi mains, One of them being The only Luigi main i've played (But might as well be the Only one needed) is Big Lou. He almost 3 stocked me in our matches back at MLG Dallas, and despite being pretty light and having the sliding problem. I still see this as his Favor by just -1. Cause as long as the Luigi outreads us, he has this in the bag.

These are just my opinions, don't rage too hard in this very late thread.


Sheik****** THE 'I' BEFORE 'E' HAS QUITE A FEW EXCEPTIONS; LOOK AT THE CSS BEFORE YOU SPELL. I can't STAND when people misspell Sheik.

Ness: I can run with that.

Diddy Kong: I'd agree with -1.

Luigi: NEVER land next to him. NEVER approach him. NEVER fight him head on. NEVER be NEAR his general proximity when you don't have your double jump. That kind of stuff.

Also, after watching that set, I didn't see Polt gimping you, which is basically the main reason why it's not in our favor. Keep in mind that one of the reasons why Metaknight is a -2 is because he can gimp us slightly better than Sheik.

One thing that jumped out at me reading this post. This says nothing about the match-up; it just means that from your experience in the match-up, your opponent outplayed you.

:005:
That's why I don't think many of our MU's are that bad. People just try to use MU ratios as a crutch to close skill gaps between them and who they lose to, and I hear about it ALLLLL the time.

Made me laugh, not gonna lie. ;)

Surprised people agree with that so easily.
Well, it's a damn frustrating MU, mainly because your Dair beats out both our Usmash AND our Uair, which are 2 of our 3 best kill moves. It could possibly be -2, but every single tactic that all of our off-the-wall Yoshis have come up with haven't proven as effective for the MU as we'd like to see.
 

Sinister Slush

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#8
Sheik****** THE 'I' BEFORE 'E' HAS QUITE A FEW EXCEPTIONS; LOOK AT THE CSS BEFORE YOU SPELL. I can't STAND when people misspell Sheik.
I knew I had it right the first time... I hovered my mouse over Sheik and the icon shows "Shiek"
I guess i'll edit it after this post.


Luigi: NEVER land next to him. NEVER approach him. NEVER fight him head on. NEVER be NEAR his general proximity when you don't have your double jump. That kind of stuff.
Yeah... his moves ***** me. I now know despite not being D3, Might as well camp him all day.

Also, after watching that set, I didn't see Polt gimping you, which is basically the main reason why it's not in our favor. Keep in mind that one of the reasons why Metaknight is a -2 is because he can gimp us slightly better than Sheik.
The only Tourney set (Outside of Laurel's Ragequit) that was recorded was him winning. He won game 1, I won game 2 (which wasn't saved), Game 3 (I forget) I went through the ledge and lava of Brinstar which made me lose the match. Also notice how I have "Sheild" next to Polts name. He doesn't go full sheik against Yoshi.

Well, it's a damn frustrating MU, mainly because your Dair beats out both our Usmash AND our Uair, which are 2 of our 3 best kill moves. It could possibly be -2, but every single tactic that all of our off-the-wall Yoshis have come up with haven't proven as effective for the MU as we'd like to see.
Gotta love Lucario and his Aura.
I've been meaning to play Trela just to see how hard Lucario is, but by the time both of us were at our 2nd stock back at WHOBO 3. Our matches were called and we had to end our friendly. I kept forgetting to ask him if he wished to continue our match.


 

burntsocks

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#9
Lucario is very winnable, which makes it hard to put an exact ratio.
Like whenever i used to paly stauffy they would always be last hit.
When i played l33 mart1n u may notice we are pretty much completely even in the beginning. The problem comes when you make mistakes and get killed first, and its very nerve racking to play against lucario with aura as lucario, especially when its so hard to get those usmashes and uairs (and down bs really, because his roll away is so fast).

I agree with diddy being -1,
and i dont agree with sheik being 0, sheik rapes ;P

Ness is definately not our advantage.
Play a good ness and you will see
Ness is quite difficult to grab, punishes quite hard, and kills probably easier than we do. We would definately lose if it wasnt for GR usmash and uair, which allow us to keep up and exceed his damage output.

If the ness is patient its difficult because hes a pretty mobile character (and his nair is absolutely devastating to yoshi =[)
 

z00ted

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#10
In my opinion Yoshi has a -1 disadvantage against Peach.

You took me to last hit game two slush, not game one.

I could see how you think it's +1/0 in your favor though Slush, you are best at the matchup after all.
 

Z'zgashi

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#11
Peach: I only have a small amount of peach experience, but with 2 decent peach mains in Utah, Id say peach is -1 for us. I can beat both of them, but I just feel like I'm fighting uphill the whole way, I don't know what it is...

Sheik: I play most likely one of, if not the best sheik in the US (Mars) almost every tournament, and we have a slight disadvantage IMO. We need to watch out for so many things in this mu, it's scary. Sheik is ****ing deadly with damage output, and in this mu, her kill problem is slightly less difficult for her due to the fact that she can force shields on us, then beat us to a pulp due to our lack of defense. Mars thinks it's even, but that only cuz I scared him by almost beating him last tournament lol :p

Ness: Ness is even. I don't see any big advantage we could have in this mu, and I don't see anythig drastic on his side either. I played FOW at Las Vegas and he used straight ness against me, but I lost 3-1 in the money match. Then again, my only other ness experience is an average main who mostly concentrates on Melee anyway, so take my opinion on this MU lightly.

Diddy: -1 IMO. One of the top players in my area mains him, so I have decent knowledge here. Diddy isn't that bad if you go to a stage with platforms and know how to use his naners against him. Jut play really gay and it's not terrible. The only problem here is the fact that approaching diddy is annoying and diddy can rack damage well, but it's not -2 worthy thanks to our own shenanigans on him.

Luigi: Not our disadvantage FOR SURE. I'd say even or maybe our advantage +1. I play a ton of luigi mains around here, and luigi doesn't have anything at all if we play keep away, which is easy due to his mobility. The only reason we don't **** is cuz when he gets in, HE GETS IN.


The only mu I have a problem with IMO is ROB, I absolutely WILL NOT agree to that as a disadvantage. I take my states rob to last game/hit EVERY SINGLE TIME I play him, and he's #3 on our PR. I know for a fact that he's better than me, and I know that he knows the mu as I play him at least once a day, I'm not even kidding. Aside from this, my brother ALSO mains rob, so I play this mu even more than every other character in this game. This is even at worst, and possibly even our slight advantage. We can play soooo safe against rob, and if we get the gyro, he can't do anything but try to approach. If we get an egglay, we can juggle the ever loving crap outta him, and he has no response.
 

Z'zgashi

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#13
Cuz luigi gets in like a mofo, and kills like nobody's buisness when he does get in. DAT JAB!! SHORYUKEN!! THE WEEGEE POKE!!

Regardless, i think id lean towards +1 us, but +2 is too much.
 

Delta-cod

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#18
I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED.

We keep Weegee out very well. The only truly fast way he can get in is Cyclone, which pops us up and lets us escape without much hassle. He also needs more than a few decent approaches to get work done; we can DJ out of many of his combos. The problem with this MU comes with getting antsy and losing patience, which can happen, since Luigi IS intimidating to a degree, and then you approach and get ***** for it. Just kick back and take your time. Also, don't try to chain him too much. Nair is gayyyyyyyyyyyy.
 

RaptorTEC

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#22
Yeah luigi is definitely not even. My friend is a luigi main and let me tell you, almost everything I do he can counter with one if his moves. My bair is almost useless in this MU. Gotta be careful with running grabs because if he sidesteps what happens? Hello UpB! His jab beats ours. His bair beats most of our aerials. The mu should be -1 for us imo.
 

Delta-cod

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#24
Raptor, your problem is that you're approaching. We get solidly beat by Luigi if we approach. What you need to do is camp the hell out of him. THAT will beat Luigi. Not aggressiveness.
 

Delta-cod

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#26
Fireballs aren't that good though. They do interfere with eggs a bit, but if he's double fireballing it means he's jumping so you can run in and punish. Just because we're camping doesn't mean we're throwing eggs. =P I do the same thing to Mario, lol.
 

Sinister Slush

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#27
Going through old Yoshi threads and I notice this old thing.
MU chart v2 is out so that means a change in stuph we might want to fix/discuss while the 3rd MU chart is in the works.

So reviving this thread for two things... in case anyone thinks something isn't right and wants to put in their two cents or just discuss any kind of MU, and cause of us not doing so hot during the Crew battles vs the Sqeegees at APEX. (Boss taking... I think 8 stocks?)
Which relates to this thread kinda since we argued about Luigi the most a year ago.
 

Airslash

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#28
I think that it's -1 for MK, I think Yoshi does pretty well against him, maybe even 50/50...

I've never played a good MK (Unless you count Draco, Mero and Plank... meh) but using Yoshi against them was incredibly easy, I'd like to play Tyrant or M2K as Yoshi sometime, but I don't get to play US players ever.

I can honestly say though, if you don't know how to play MK's it's a -2. But if you can keep control of your character against MK as Yoshi, it's easy.

and i'm even doubting myself, but i'll say -1.
 

Lukingordex

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#32
I think we can have a +1 on :mario2:,a +2 on :zelda:,a +3 on :link2: and :jigglypuff:,a -1 on :toonlink:,a -2 on :lucario:,a -3 on :falco:,and a 0 (even) with :wario:,:ike: and :sheik:.
 

Sinister Slush

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#33
I think we can have a +1 on :mario2:,a +2 on :zelda:,a +3 on :link2: and :jigglypuff:,a -1 on :toonlink:,a -2 on :lucario:,a -3 on :falco:,and a 0 (even) with :wario:,:ike: and :sheik:.

But this chart is not bad,I liked it.
The chart in the OP is actually the previous ratios when v1 of the MU Chart was made.
For now, here's the new stuph from v2.

Old
:yoshi2:
-3: :lucario:
-2: :metaknight: :diddy: :falco: :marth: :toonlink: :fox: :wolf:
-1: :snake: :wario: :pikachu2: :dedede: :gw: :zerosuitsamus: :kirby2: :rob: :pit: :peach: :sheilda: :ike: :sheik:
0: :olimar: :dk2: :luigi2: :ness2: :mario2: :samus2:
1: :popo: :sonic: :lucas: :falcon: :zelda:
2: :pt: :jigglypuff: :link2:
3: :bowser2: :ganondorf:
New
:yoshi2:
-2: :diddy: :falco: :lucario: :metaknight: :wolf:
-1: :dedede: :fox: :gw: :kirby2: :olimar: :marth: :pikachu2: :pit: :rob: :snake: :toonlink: :zerosuitsamus:
0: :dk2: :popo: :ike: :luigi2: :ness2: :peach: :samus2: :sheik: :sheilda: :sonic: :wario:
1: :falcon: :lucas: :mario2: :zelda:
2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :pt:
3: :bowser2: :ganondorf:
 

Scatz

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#40
That made no sense Slash. It's simply this:

We beat MKs that don't know the MU
Average MKs that know the MU make it even to worse
Top MKs that know the MU **** the soifhoiroeifsodij off us
 
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