BBR Matchup Chart Version 3 Panel ; Panelists, Join the MU Chart Usergroup

[BSP]

Hey everyone, I’m BSP and will be leading the panel for the BBR Match-Up Chart v3. The thread detailing panel leaders, as well as other various information about the project, can be found here.

The current panelists for this panel are:
BSP
BigLou
Boss
MrConCon
Luigisama

[collapse=panel is pretty much set, ignore this]

We are limited to five panelists for this project, and are looking for active and knowledgeable members of the community to help fill our remaining openings. If you would like to join the panel for this character, please make a post demonstrating your interest in this thread, along with what would make you a desirable panelist. Keep in mind that debating skills are important for all panel members, and those with poor behavior will be ejected from the project if complaints arise.

So let me know if you're interested either by a post in here or a PM.

And one more thing: the most important aspect of this project IMO is ACTIVITY. Please make sure you’ll be able to make this commitment once you’re on board.

[/collapse]

If you have any questions or concerns regarding this panel or its activities, feel free to post them in this thread. You may also PM me or Ish if you would rather speak to one of us privately. Panelist selections will be finalized in a week or two, at which point we will begin discussing which match-ups to change in the panelist subforum.

Luigi's current MU spread:



-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Proposed Changes:

No change
no change or -3

 

[Luigisama]

I'm interested. I'm very active on here and I know a good amount of mu knowledge against other characters that I've gained in offline tourneys.

 

[RaptorTEC]

My Luigi is pretty good

 

[Z'zgashi]

I actually use Luigi in tournament ;D

But really, I dont think Im knowledgeable enough on Weegee to be on the panel lol.

 

[Luigisama]

I actually use Luigi in tournament ;D

But really, I dont think Im knowledgeable enough on Weegee to be on the panel lol.

well what mus have you played? I actually don't have full knowledge on some mus since I've played against rookies who use a certain character.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Basically just the top tiers, like MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, etc. I know a little about a few others, but I would say I only have a good feel on 10 or so MUs. :/

 

[Luigisama]

Basically just the top tiers, like MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, etc. I know a little about a few others, but I would say I only have a good feel on 10 or so MUs. :/

we could use, snake, diddy, and falco help.

I think gashi can be on the list what do you think BSP? For other people I would think either Yoshq, boss, and Mr.concon

 

[boss8]

Wowzers..............

 

[BSP]

I've got BigLou and MrConCon on board so far.

Is that a yes Boss?

 

[boss8]

guess so...

does my name get to be in pretty colors? =D

 

[Luigisama]

The current panelists for this panel are:
BSP
BigLou
MrConCon

I'm interested. I'm very active on here and I know a good amount of mu knowledge against other characters that I've gained in offline tourneys.

 

[BSP]

guess so...

does my name get to be in pretty colors? =D

No idea

Alright, you're in.

 

[BigLøu]

WHen are we gonna discuss matchups

 

[boss8]

lets talk about how unwinnable marth vs luigi is...

 

[BSP]

For now, we're supposed to figure out what changes we want to see to Luigi's MU spread. We need to send in a list of proposed changes around early January. We start discussing with other panels around APEX time.

So, think about what MUs should be changed, and propose a change list.

Luigi's current MU spread



-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

We'll start discussion with the MUs most requested to change, and go from there.

 

[boss8]

lol well you guys really wanna start with MK?

that MU is horrible....

in the air....

on the ground....

literally nothing luigi can do...

kinda like vs marth...

 

[BSP]

Alright, here we go.

The 5 people in the OP will be our panelists. They'll be our debaters for when it comes time to debate with other panels.

However, for right now, everyone can participate as we go through each MU. You can either agree with the current ratio, or propose a change (and defend it obviously). We do this until we get a consensus, then we move on.

...

Profit.

will be first

Anyway, with that being said, I don't think this ratio needs to be changed. To me, a -3 means that you are very unlikely to win this MU at top level play, and I'd say this describes Luigi v MK.

MK can effectively and reliably cover all of Luigi's options in the air and ground. He solidly outranges Luigi in all aspects, and solidly beats Luigi in frame data. I don't think Luigi can do anything to even punish a well executed Ftilt1 -> Dtilt from MK. If MK ever feels threatened, he just needs to Dsmash your shield, and he gets some breathing room. He's also got grounded shuttle loop to plow through any ideas of an aerial approach. Fireballs aren't even safe on hit unless MK is pretty far away, and even then, he can just tornado through them. His frames on the ground >> Luigi's, just no doubt. It's an uphill battle.

MK can wreck green missile every time. Aiming for the ledge with the missile is suicide. MK can shuttle loop and Dair you cleanly. The most effective recovery strategy for Luigi seems to be going high. You're susceptible to pressure, but it's better than being gimped and/or knocked right back offstage.

The reason this isn't -4 is because when Luigi does land a hit, it hurts, and he can kill MK at 50% if he gets an Up B. The problem is, these occasions are too far off from each other to push this MU up from a -3.

I've had experience playing local MKs, and I've played Lee Martin a few times with Luigi. Lee Martin is obviously better than me, but even if I was on his level, I'd still get wrecked. I think he told me he beat BigLou pretty solidly at one point. If MK knows the MU, he has the tools to just shut Luigi down. When he screws up, that's when Luigi can make his comebacks, but, realistically, this will not happen enough at top level for Luigi to consistently beat MK.

Boss, would you keep it as -3?

 

[BigLøu]

Luigi mk is simply HORRIBLE. I think minus three may not do it enough justice. Luigi has to rely on the worst gimmicks ever in order to get in on mk and try to hit him. But fortunatly since luigis in game is so good there maybe be a time when you can hit him. The best way Luigi can fight mk is having mk slightly above luigi because thats where luigi can land his mixups and moves. You need to stay grounded vs mk while mk hovers slightly above you, since Luigi's upsmash can hit mk out of certian things and comes out certain moves. Unfortunately though its a huge gimmick with luigi to try to hit mk, most of the time he can just keep you out with tilts and forward air. You need to be really good at powershielding his moves. Once your off the stage you may as well kiss your stock good by, luigis recovery is perfect for mk gimping you. I suppose minus 3 is decently accurate, but I would almost argue a minus 4.

 

[boss8]

counting jumps is godlike.....

 

[Luigisama]

I'll add more to this later.

Edit:
hmm seems BSP covered most of what I was going to say. good just to add

As bad as the mu is for luigi being that metaknight can cover every option ground, air, or offstage. Luigi still has some strengths that help him in the mu.
While this mu is difficult to win. Luigi can still rely on the most simple tactics to beat metaknight such as using his shield and playing defensive. As for recovery metaknight CAN stop all of luigis recoverys, but there is one metaknight playing not 3 to cover all of luigi's options for recovery. Those being
- high recovery
- low recovery
- side b to ledge grab when metaknight is not near luigi off stage.

Overall this Mu will and always stay a -3

 

[BSP]

Irrelevant now.

 

[Luigisama]

Luigi's current MU spread



-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

What I would want to see changed

-3
-2
-1
0
1
2

Edit
I guess when we can we'll discuss d3 who is next. Will some of these discussion be done on here only? or is skype involved as well?

edit 2
I know every other luigi can see Peach as -1, but I feel it could be a -2 for luigi. Those auto cancels.

 

[BSP]

I'll think about Skype

And I'm ********.

Everyone do what Luigisama just did and propose a changelist. We'll discuss whichever MUs are voted the most for changing.

 

[boss8]

i don't agree with some of sama's -1 things....

nor do i agree with the one above his...

i'll explain why later...

 

[BSP]

Well ****, we're going to get to every MU eventually X_x. Just going down the cast should work.

#trying to figure out the best method

Anyway, we did start MK, so let's figure that out

BSP: no change
Luigisama: no Change
Boss : give me a ratio
Biglou : no change or -4
Mrconcon: none yet

 

[boss8]

it isn't any worse then -3....mainly cuz mk can die early....

 

[me9595]

can anyone put it input, or are the rest of us excluded

 

[Luigisama]

i don't agree with some of sama's -1 things....

nor do i agree with the one above his...

i'll explain why later...

yeah I had a feeling. But some of the things I listed aren't my full opinion. On second thought I'll put down that Peach could be -2 for luigi. I'm willing to defend that.

can anyone put it input, or are the rest of us excluded

I'm not sure, but that would be interesting to see. Not every luigi here has played the top level play of every character. Sure playing one character enough times can give you mu knowledge, but not always like for example I play Raptor's defensive lucario who is nothing compared to other lucarios in playstyle.

What I learned is that Lucario is really good offstage especially the user knows how to dair missle and wall cling after up b.


edit
I think what will help since not everyone is here at the same is if I make a write on mus. To post so everyone else can respond later on.

 

[zhao_guang]

Aye, I don't have an opinion for many of these (lack of recent tournament attendance johns), but I think Marth should be on par with MK as a -3 match-up. It's borderline unwinnable (only reason I don't totally think it's a no-hope match-up is because I'm a naive dingus who believes any match-up is winnable).

I'd also push that Snake is only a -1 match-up, but I have no real reason except I don't get bodied senseless by guys like Ally, Cruxis, or Billybeegood despite the gaps in skill level between us, so I feel like there's gotta be something there.

I dunno, I haven't changed my style essentially at all since 2009, so my approach to match-ups is pretty skewed. <_<

Also, if there's a skype party, add me!!! (colin.north26). I have mrconcon on there too. We have (intimate?) convos.

EDIT: also this is my opinion on diddy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkspZNLMAjk UGH HEARTBREAK </3

 

[BSP]

can anyone put it input, or are the rest of us excluded

Feel free to chime in. Top level experience is what will be valued the most though.

next.

Unfortunately, I haven't played any top level players. I have played thesaintKai in tournament, but I don't think he's considered top 5. I'll take a backseat on this one and do some digging on youtube. I feel like -2 is a little too negative for , but let me see what I can find.

Edit: And then I remembered the Video Thread. I can see the argument for -2 just because of the risk:reward ratio being so far in the Ice Climbers' favor (one grab should be a death), but it seems like whenever Luigi gets momentum, he can bring it right back really quickly.

 

[me9595]

ive played lain a couple of times, some friendlies and in pools one time, and my friend mains ics as well. I would say that luigi loses, at probably a -2. we dont have much of a way to stay away at all becuase we really want to be close to them, and that isnt the best spot to be against ics. we can beat out a blizzard wall with fire ball and we can knock back ice blocks with a couple of moves, so this isnt really the type of match up where there will be to much camping because neither side can really force an approach that well. I dont know, thats just my experience though

 

[BigLøu]

-2 feels about right. Ice climbers can pivot grab you out of nado so its kinda hard to spilt them that way. Their hammers have great priority. The best bet is to get them about you where they are forced to try to land. Shoryuken nana as soon as you can. More later

 

[Luigisama]

I feel that it's a -1 matchup. The -1 being the grab otherwise I just don't see Ics other moves being too much of threat to luigi. My only ics mu experience comes from a good ics main Vinnie.

-blizzard
Luigi can fireball through it. Also this move has mid range and great damage input, but the set up for it against luigi works best when Luigi is at the edge and not on the stage.
-ice blocks
They can be dangerous towards luigi offstage and on stage depending on the pattern of use of the ice block it can be difficult to approach ics or to properly fireball camp.

As dangerous as the grab is it really puts ics other moves to shame. Luigi should at all times be moving in this mu making it difficult for ics to grab. A human can break out of the ics back throw grab by mashing out, but only until 30% otherwise it's impossible.

Luigi shouldn't be attacking Ice climbers on their shield or luigi will get grabbed. Also separating the ics is very important in this match up and this can be done by

-using cyclone when Nana is obviously de synced because her shield input will be off and she will be exposed even if Popo shields. Cyclone can be shield grabbed, but if done right Nana or popo will get hit giving luigi time to escape the grab.

-Jab whichever character(popo or Nana) is hit Luigi can ftilt or complete his jab combo to separate the ics.

-grab: a human player can have good reflexes, but most of the time they can't react quickly enough to stop a run up to grab most of the time. This is effective when done right since luigi should fthrow being his quickest throw to separate the ics. As risky or stupid as it sounds I've pulled it off successfully. Luigi's slide helps a lot in pulling this off since he can slide during his grab animation.

-fireball. This can also desync ice climbers giving luigi the opportunity to hit with the other moves listed up.

Luigi should imagine how much percent nana has when she has been hit several times judging by how far she goes after she gets hit by attacks. Using this Luigi should use fsmash, upsmash, or jab to up b on nana to kill her.

-Ice climbers pretty much have to approach in a sense to get their grab and during their approach or the slightest movements if Nana is de synced or popo approaches, Luigi should capitalize and separate the ice climbers.

-Once they are separated Luigi should focus his offense on nana and go for a gimp and from this Gimp even if nana doesn't die Popo will have to save nana.

-As Popo is saving Nana when Popo uses his up b to grab the ledge Popo is vulnerable and can get hit by luigi thus taking a stock gimping Popo.

Luigi facing off against Popo can be dangerous, but luigi should camp and play defensive. Take opportunities to push Popo off stage or to at least rack up damage with fireballs and get a safe jab to grab bthrow kill. Popo has to approach to get his dthrow chaingrab and his only best move option is bair. His other options like fair are either not quick enough or just lack range.

Overall the ics grab is the main strength for ics in this mu, but they can be separated so easily.
Luigi can choose to not approach in this match up. imo There is no reason why luigi should be approach unless there is an opportunity to separate the ics. Separating ics is the key to victory for luigi since keeping them together will be costly.

 

[Vinnie]

I feel that it's a -1 matchup. The -1 being the grab otherwise I just don't see Ics other moves being too much of threat to luigi. My only ics mu experience from a good ics main is Vinnie's.

-blizzard
Luigi can fireball through it. Also this move has mid range and great damage input, but the set up for it against luigi works best when Luigi is at the edge and not on the stage.
-ice blocks
They can be dangerous towards luigi offstage and on stage depending on the pattern of use of the ice block it can be difficult to approach ics or to properly fireball camp.

As dangerous as the grab is it really puts ics other moves to shame. Luigi should at all times be moving in this mu making it difficult for ics to grab. A human can break out of the ics back throw grab by mashing out, but only until 30% otherwise it's impossible.

Luigi shouldn't be attacking Ice climbers on their shield or luigi will get grabbed. Also separating the ics is very important in this match up and this can be done by

-using cyclone when Nana is obviously de synced because her shield input will be off and she will be exposed even if Popo shields. Cyclone can be shield grabbed, but if done right Nana or popo will get hit giving luigi time to escape the grab.

-Jab whichever character(popo or Nana) is hit Luigi can ftilt or complete his jab combo to separate the ics.

-grab: a human player can have good reflexes, but most of the time they can't react quickly enough to stop a run up to grab most of the time. This is effective when done right since luigi should fthrow being his quickest throw to separate the ics. As risky or stupid as it sounds I've pulled it off successfully. Luigi's slide helps a lot in pulling this off since he can slide during his grab animation.

-fireball. This can also desync ice climbers giving luigi the opportunity to hit with the other moves listed up.

Luigi should imagine how much percent nana has when she has been hit several times judging by how far she goes after she gets hit by attacks. Using this Luigi should use fsmash, upsmash, or jab to up b on nana to kill her.

-Ice climbers pretty much have to approach in a sense to get their grab and during their approach or the slightest movements if Nana is de synced or popo approaches, Luigi should capitalize and separate the ice climbers.

-Once they are separated Luigi should focus his offense on nana and go for a gimp and from this Gimp even if nana doesn't die Popo will have to save nana.

-As Popo is saving Nana when Popo uses his up b to grab the ledge Popo is vulnerable and can get hit by luigi thus taking a stock gimping Popo.

Luigi facing off against Popo can be dangerous, but luigi should camp and play defensive. Take opportunities to push Popo off stage or to at least rack up damage with fireballs and get a safe jab to grab bthrow kill. Popo has to approach to get his dthrow chaingrab and his only best move option is bair. His other options like fair are either not quick enough or just lack range.

Overall the ics grab is main strength for ics in this mu yet they can be separated so easily. The grab isn't a vacuum that sucks in luigi, he can avoid the grab by moving.
Luigi doesn't need to approach in this match up. There is no reason why luigi should be approach unless there is an opportunity to separate the ics. Separating ics is the key to victory for luigi.

I thought you were trolling with -1 but then I read that you posted a lot.

I don't see how it can be less than -3, but I honestly believe it's -4.

The current MU chart you have is really out of whack and completely biased towards Luigi. Even with Diddy/Wario? Only -2 vs characters like Falco, Snake, Marth? Only -1 vs G&W/Kirby/ICs/D3?? @.@ most boards of high tier characters just slap a +3 on their character vs Luigi by default (in most situations). You guys should take into consideration tournament results of your character before stating outrageous claims like these.

Luigi is considered a below-average character for a reason.

That's my 2 cents :V

 

[smashkng]

What I would want to see changed

-3
-2
-1
0
1
2

Edit
I guess when we can we'll discuss d3 who is next. Will some of these discussion be done on here only? or is skype involved as well?

edit 2
I know every other luigi can see Peach as -1, but I feel it could be a -2 for luigi. Those auto cancels.

There's no way Ike goes even with Luigi. The -2 ratio is accurate IMO. Ike outranges Luigi by a mile, he outmobiles him and unless Luigi PS Ike's attacks push Luigi so far away that he can't punish Ike's stuff as long as the Ike has decent spacing. And even if he PS Ike's aerials are unpunishable if spaced perfectly. Even when Luigi gets in he has to deal with Ike's amazing jab. I can't really think of any way for Luigi to safely get inside Ike's zone besides down b. It's really not a good MU for Luigi at top level of play.

 

[Luigisama]

I thought you were trolling with -1 but then I read that you posted a lot.

I don't see how it can be less than -3, but I honestly believe it's -4.

I would only agree with -3 or -4 only if ics grab box was a bigger than it is.

Other than that I guess I should be considering Ics as a whole instead of one hit now the ice climbers are separated. Besides the HUGE threat of the chaingrab is gone once nana or popo is dead.

This is also my opinion so it's not set in stone for the mu ratio. No luigi will play by the wall of text that I just explained. But I'll continue to play this way for this mu.

There's no way Ike goes even with Luigi. The -2 ratio is accurate IMO. Ike outranges Luigi by a mile, he outmobiles him and unless Luigi PS Ike's attacks push Luigi so far away that he can't punish Ike's stuff as long as the Ike has decent spacing. And even if he PS Ike's aerials are unpunishable if spaced perfectly. Even when Luigi gets in he has to deal with Ike's amazing jab. I can't really think of any way for Luigi to safely get inside Ike's zone besides down b. It's really not a good MU for Luigi at top level of play.

by those standards then Ike must be as fast marth if the mu is -2 and luigi getting pushed on shield by attacks is the PRIMARY weakness to luigi. There must be no way around OH NO. I also didn't know that Ike jab > everything luigi.

 

[Muhti]

I would only agree with -3 or -4 only if ics grab box was a bigger than it is.

Other than that I guess I should be considering Ics as a whole instead of one hit now the ice climbers are separated. Besides the HUGE threat of the chaingrab is gone once nana or popo is dead.

This is also my opinion so it's not set in stone for the mu ratio. I doubt any luigi would really play by the wall of text that I just explained. I'll continue to play this way for this mu.

That's funny, because I just read that and I might try that out lol.

Maybe not, oh well.

But I do agree with smashking. Ike has a larger range in comparison with Luigi (obviously) and could own Luigis aerials with that range.

 

[Vinnie]

I would only agree with -3 or -4 only if ics grab box was a bigger than it is.

I never understood this logic. ICs don't just try to grab people (the good ones). They usually have several setups/methods for landing the grab. The size of the grab box doesn't matter when there's things like

Nair (while they're on a platform) -> grab
Nana fair -> grab
Nana iceblock -> grab

etc


If the grab box was bigger than it is, they would likely be banned. They already decimate Luigi without it imo.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I always thought of it as a -2 for Luigi, just because Luigi can **** them up really hard if separated. Then again my IC's aren't that good

Sama reread some of your paragraphs there's grammatical errors that make it hard to understand what you're trying to say sometimes :/

 

[Luigisama]

The current MU chart you have is really out of whack and completely biased towards Luigi. Even with Diddy/Wario? Only -2 vs characters like Falco, Snake, Marth? Only -1 vs G&W/Kirby/ICs/D3?? @.@ most boards of high tier characters just slap a +3 on their character vs Luigi by default (in most situations). You guys should take into consideration tournament results of your character before stating outrageous claims like these.

this should say

The current MU chart you have is really out of whack and completely biased towards Luigi.Only -2 vs characters like Falco, Snake, Marth? Only -1 vs G&W/Kirby/ICs/D3?? @.@ most boards of high tier characters just slap a +3 on their character vs Luigi by default (in most situations).

Your chart(luigisama) Even with Diddy/Wario? seems ridiculous.

much better. Also this isn't being bias at least for the current list since Luigi is not gaining anything in his favor. As for my mine I moved sheik from 1+ for luigi to -1 other mus I just feel that's how they are.