Q&A Bayonetta Technique Compendium and Q&A

[JCrv]

Could someone tell me how to do an up-b into up-air at kill percents?

Can't figure it out so I'd be great if you guys helped me out

 

[Flamegeyser]

Could someone tell me how to do an up-b into up-air at kill percents?

Can't figure it out so I'd be great if you guys helped me out

How exactly do you mean, do you mean 2nd Witch Twist? TJ SDI'd uair? Sour hitbox launch uair?

 

[Zalezus]

Could someone tell me how to do an up-b into up-air at kill percents?

Can't figure it out so I'd be great if you guys helped me out

I believe WTw2 > Uair has a few different mix up possibilities but would personally rather an ABK (early hit) at the end of a combo to avoid those situations and the possibility of my opponent just wiggling out of it altogether

You can sort of reliably frame trap by waiting/falling for a bit after WTw2 to bait out an air dodge or other reaction. If you're pretty good about DJCWTw then you'll have a double jump to work with, allowing you to mix up with a FF to DJ. Sometimes the DI you're chasing might be better served with a Bair or Fair, both of which can kill at high enough percentages. Sometimes the DI you're chasing makes it really easy to just throw out an Uair. If you can connect a Fair1, you can likely drift forward to connect a late Uair for the kill all after the second Twist.

In my personal experience if you b-reverse the second Witch Twist, it makes it easier for you to catch them going the wrong way with a favorable position to uair; hitting them with the middle of the Twist is a part of that favorable positioning. Taking them high enough into the sky somehow can help, as escaping early is high risk for just being launched into the blast zone.

 

[C0rvus]

Anyone know if Bayonetta's short hop air dodge is worth using over her roll? I know it's the case with Samus.

 

[Lorde]

bat within would be frame 1 on SHAD instead of frame 3 on roll, so i guess there's that

but SHAD only has 2 frames of leniency (i know you can interrupt airdodges and avoid the landing lag, but idk the specifics; I'm just going off the FAF here), otherwise you're going to be eating 22 frames of landing lag for mistiming it.

Her rolls are pretty bad, so I could see SHAD being more useful, but I'm not sure if it's really that big of a deal. Her OOS options are pretty decent, so rolling isn't something you should really be doing all that often anyway.

As long as you're not spamming roll like a typical FG player, I think you're fine using either option. SHAD may be more useful solely because of bat within being frame 1 on airdodge, so you could avoid hits that you couldn't if you had rolled. Maybe mixing up between roll and SHAD could be an option for you?

 

[ElMoro995]

bat within would be frame 1 on SHAD instead of frame 3 on roll, so i guess there's that

but SHAD only has 2 frames of leniency (i know you can interrupt airdodges and avoid the landing lag, but idk the specifics; I'm just going off the FAF here), otherwise you're going to be eating 22 frames of landing lag for mistiming it.

Her rolls are pretty bad, so I could see SHAD being more useful, but I'm not sure if it's really that big of a deal. Her OOS options are pretty decent, so rolling isn't something you should really be doing all that often anyway.

As long as you're not spamming roll like a typical FG player, I think you're fine using either option. SHAD may be more useful solely because of bat within being frame 1 on airdodge, so you could avoid hits that you couldn't if you had rolled. Maybe mixing up between roll and SHAD could be an option for you?

You must count the jumpsquat frames. With SHAD bat within would be F5. Btw Bayo has no landing lag and you can buffer abk/dabk before landing too

 

[Zalezus]

Anyone know if Bayonetta's short hop air dodge is worth using over her roll? I know it's the case with Samus.

I use it as a mix up to SHNair or tomahawk. Elmoro mentioned being able to ABK after that, but it might also reliably apply to Fair1 and definitely to Witch Twist. Great low to the ground mix up I'd say, which is where we generally want to be at low percent.

 

[JCrv]

How exactly do you mean, do you mean 2nd Witch Twist? TJ SDI'd uair? Sour hitbox launch uair?

Yep I meant after the second Witch Twist

 

[Flamegeyser]

Yep I meant after the second Witch Twist

In that case, it should be true beyond like 50%, just hitting uair after Wtw2, but it's been made harder thanks to WTw2's new KBG, so it won't always work.

 

[Pkkum]

Could somebody test something for me?
I was playing for glory against a boswer jr
He was on ledge at 150% and I dash grabbed and grabbed him
Im not sure if it was because he ledge getuped that very moment or if it was something similar to Donkey Kong grab
(He could grab some characters on the ledge without invisibility)
I have a 3ds so I cannot test it myself

 

[Flamegeyser]

Could somebody test something for me?
I was playing for glory against a boswer jr
He was on ledge at 150% and I dash grabbed and grabbed him
Im not sure if it was because he ledge getuped that very moment or if it was something similar to Donkey Kong grab
(He could grab some characters on the ledge without invisibility)
I have a 3ds so I cannot test it myself

He probably just got up on the same few frames as you grabbed him so you couldn't see it, but I'll test it and edit this if I find anything. If I don't edit, assume nothing was found.

 

[CreamyFatone]

Can someone explain to me the science of how horizontal fair strings work?

I can't make any sense out of DI and I don't know if there's a part of the hitbox I'm aiming for or if there's some special timing or what. Anyone who utilizes this, please help, thanks

 

[Flamegeyser]

Can someone explain to me the science of how horizontal fair strings work?

I can't make any sense out of DI and I don't know if there's a part of the hitbox I'm aiming for or if there's some special timing or what. Anyone who utilizes this, please help, thanks

If by horizontal fair strings, you mean cancelling fair into itself to carry them, it's not really very true until later %s far as I know. The close hitbox (the sweetspot slightly behind the gun I believe) is the hitbox that is most conducive to combos, and the one to hit with. However, these strings have been nerfed significantly anyways. If you want to kill them off the side by getting close, nair is a better option, and combos out of fair itself.

 

[Lorde]

Whenever you're using fair for combos, the inside hitbox is the one you want to use

Spoiler: fair1 hitbox

The dark red is the part you want to hit the opponent with

iirc that hitbox has more hitstun/a better angle

Basically, aim to hit with Bayo's armpit when using fair1 for combos

 

[BJN39]

Whenever you're using fair for combos, the inside hitbox is the one you want to use

Spoiler: fair1 hitbox

View attachment 112077

The dark red is the part you want to hit the opponent with

iirc that hitbox has more hiTatum/a better angle

Basically, aim to hit with Bayo's armpit when using fair1 for combos

To expand on this, it's the lower inner hitbox that should have the highest hitstun, as well as the highest hit priority of the three. (32F or so) The upper inner one has ~28F of hitstun, and the outer one only has 26F or so. (Quick checks agree that those are the three hitstun numbers) All of them provide enough hitstun for, frame-data-wise, guaranteed ABK or WTwist. Note that the outer one, with JUST enough htistun for ABK, could end up not connecting into the very first frame of ABK, thus technically not being "airtight," but all things considered, it should still land before the target's airdodge invincibility, should that be their response. Things like Marcina/LM up B, Bat within, and Ryu perfect Shoruken + Focus attack can all bring up counter-armor/invincibility on frame 1, and can be more annoying at countering tipper-spaced FAir1.

If you're hitting with EITHER inner hitbox, none of that will matter though.

Right off the bat, frame-perfect FAir1 > UAir should work if you are close enough, (And chain into ez$$$ near the ground) but doing it perfectly... >,> NAir would also be an applicable followup if they are still in range. (Can't remember if so off the top of my head) Bayo doesn't have really any other forward aerial options to follow FAir 1. B-move options are far easier because you don't have to perfectly time your button press or accidentally do a FAir2.

Also, you don't necessarily have to space as close as her armpit. The hitboxes reach all the way to the edge of her gun. But spacing close as possible will guarantee you land the 32F hitstun hitbox.

Edit: It's really important to mention that FAir2 is really way worse for comboing than FAir1.

The kb numbers used for FAir2 are lower all around. The highest hitstun is only 27F, and the lowest is 25F. On top of this, it has 5 whole frames more endlag.

I don't think it even gets you guaranteed Witch Twist lmao

Please don't try to combo with it u will be Shoryuken'd if u do that.

 

[TurtlesBae]

Bayonetta has a tech that will let her slide after a grab. It's very bad quality, but here is a tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHVs4raDxEo&feature=youtu.be

 

[Flamegeyser]

Bayonetta has a tech that will let her slide after a grab. It's very bad quality, but here is a tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHVs4raDxEo&feature=youtu.be

Yes yes, quite important. You can do this off of regular nair and uair, as well as (quite uselessly) in the opposite direction of bair. Regular nair is probably the best, since nair is safe on shield when spaced, meaning that if they block it, they have to predict if we will or won't grab. It also means that nair or BA nair->grab is true at low%s.

 

[KHYikes]

To expand on this, it's the lower inner hitbox that should have the highest hitstun, as well as the highest hit priority of the three. (32F or so) The upper inner one has ~28F of hitstun, and the outer one only has 26F or so. (Quick checks agree that those are the three hitstun numbers) All of them provide enough hitstun for, frame-data-wise, guaranteed ABK or WTwist. Note that the outer one, with JUST enough htistun for ABK, could end up not connecting into the very first frame of ABK, thus technically not being "airtight," but all things considered, it should still land before the target's airdodge invincibility, should that be their response. Things like Marcina/LM up B, Bat within, and Ryu perfect Shoruken + Focus attack can all bring up counter-armor/invincibility on frame 1, and can be more annoying at countering tipper-spaced FAir1.

If you're hitting with EITHER inner hitbox, none of that will matter though.

Right off the bat, frame-perfect FAir1 > UAir should work if you are close enough, (And chain into ez$$$ near the ground) but doing it perfectly... >,> NAir would also be an applicable followup if they are still in range. (Can't remember if so off the top of my head) Bayo doesn't have really any other forward aerial options to follow FAir 1. B-move options are far easier because you don't have to perfectly time your button press or accidentally do a FAir2.

Also, you don't necessarily have to space as close as her armpit. The hitboxes reach all the way to the edge of her gun. But spacing close as possible will guarantee you land the 32F hitstun hitbox.

Edit: It's really important to mention that FAir2 is really way worse for comboing than FAir1.

The kb numbers used for FAir2 are lower all around. The highest hitstun is only 27F, and the lowest is 25F. On top of this, it has 5 whole frames more endlag.

I don't think it even gets you guaranteed Witch Twist lmao

Please don't try to combo with it u will be Shoryuken'd if u do that.

This is interesting because I often see top bayo's (like PF and Saj) go for Fair1>Fair2>Bayo stuff rather than just Fair1>Bayo stuff.

I always assumed there was a reason for that but from this it seems like going for ONLY Fair1 is always the better option? Is Fair2 just for a bit more damage then?

 

[BJN39]

This is interesting because I often see top bayo's (like PF and Saj) go for Fair1>Fair2>Bayo stuff rather than just Fair1>Bayo stuff.

I always assumed there was a reason for that but from this it seems like going for ONLY Fair1 is always the better option? Is Fair2 just for a bit more damage then?

Going for FAir1 only is always a better option. There's is just a much larger (or maybe I should say actual) hit advantage after FAir1 that doesn't exist after FAir2. If you go for hit 2 there's no reason not to do hit 3.

I noticed top players do the 2FAir thing as well and never understood why they wouldn't finish it with FAir3. Now more than ever with the damage nerfs it's not even worth 2.2% to try something gimmicky out of FAir2 that shouldn't work. Even though her specials all have SDI problems you'll at least yet more damage from using them.

 

[KHYikes]

Going for FAir1 only is always a better option. There's is just a much larger (or maybe I should say actual) hit advantage after FAir1 that doesn't exist after FAir2. If you go for hit 2 there's no reason not to do hit 3.

I noticed top players do the 2FAir thing as well and never understood why they wouldn't finish it with FAir3. Now more than ever with the damage nerfs it's not even worth 2.2% to try something gimmicky out of FAir2 that shouldn't work. Even though her specials all have SDI problems you'll at least yet more damage from using them.

Thanks for letting me know!

Kind of frustrating because I've been going for Fair1>Fair2>WT a lot lately BECAUSE I thought it was the better option due to top players doing it all the time! I was noticing that sometimes my opponent could airdodge after Fair2 leading to whatever combo I had being dropped and this explains it pretty well. Fair1 it is!

 

[KirbCider]

I figured this would be a good place to ask this:

I've been trying to find some good Bayonetta Combo Vids (mainly after the nerf since the older ones will no longer be effective), but all I can seem to find are either ones that were before the nerf or done in training mode with a CPU that doesn't DI. Has anyone found, or know of any good videos or guides that explain/show her new combos and follow ups after the nerf? I'm trying to get a bit better with her.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Flamegeyser]

I figured this would be a good place to ask this:

I've been trying to find some good Bayonetta Combo Vids (mainly after the nerf since the older ones will no longer be effective), but all I can seem to find are either ones that were before the nerf or done in training mode with a CPU that doesn't DI. Has anyone found, or know of any good videos or guides that explain/show her new combos and follow ups after the nerf? I'm trying to get a bit better with her.

Thanks in advance!

Sorry fam, it looks like there aren't a lot of post-patch bayo combo vids, if any. If I could recommend a solution, I'd recommend joining the Bayo Discord by going to character Discords and clicking on her at http://smashcords.com/
We've got a doc dedicated to finding combos, tech, and setups, as well as an active metagame chat that will answer any question you need to ask. You don't need to be a main, even, and it's probably the best way we're gonna develop her meta.

 

[Fenny]

THIS IS VERY RELEVANT GUYS

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If you guys didn't notice in the vid...

If you initiate a special at the moment you land on the ground, you cancel out her landing lag from using extended aerial specials. You have to have an extra Side B or Up B stored away in order to do it though.

On top of making her landing safer than before, you can catch an opponent off guard and actually punish them for trying to punish you. And it looks like the combos you can potentially pull off with it are....well ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Only downside is that the timing to pull it off is super hard. I've only done it successfully a few times with Heel Slide.

EDIT: Really getting the hang of it now (an hour and a half later rofl) and I'm trying to make combos out of it now. A cookie-cutter combo using this on a Bowser Jr was WTw > ABK > Bair > Lag Cancelled Heel Slide > Short Hop WTw > ABK > ABK > Bair, and he came out with 75% damage on him.

This is beautiful.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Wow. This find is pretty huge, considering that the landing lag she got from using a combo was one of her bigger weaknesses. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Is it only Wtw and HSK that can cancel the landing lag, or could all of her specials work?

As for the combo, is it true (forget about DI and SDI for now)? Even if it isn't, it's still a really nice combo. However, I'd think that you'd need to start the WTw on the ground, or the opponent would be too high for Bair > LCHSK (we'll shorten "Lag Cancelled" to "LC").

Thanks again for pointing this out! I'm hoping that top players will start implementing this into their gameplay soon.

 

[Fenny]

Wow. This find is pretty huge, considering that the landing lag she got from using a combo was one of her bigger weaknesses. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Is it only Wtw and HSK that can cancel the landing lag, or could all of her specials work?

Witch Time does so regardless of timing, as long as you land on the ground while she's in the animation (landing towards the end of the animation practically allows her to attack immediately upon landing). You just don't really wanna use it that way - but you can, for sure. And it's effective.

Bullet Climax, on the other hand, is intrinsically designed to fire automatically if you've used ABK or WTw in the air already, so you can't do it with it. Otherwise, we could just go into a charged BC stance until we land and then press shield to cancel our lag altogether.

As for the combo, is it true (forget about DI and SDI for now)? Even if it isn't, it's still a really nice combo. However, I'd think that you'd need to start the WTw on the ground, or the opponent would be too high for Bair > LCHSK (we'll shorten "Lag Cancelled" to "LC").

Thanks again for pointing this out! I'm hoping that top players will start implementing this into their gameplay soon.

Nah, I don't believe so. But the three times or so I've successfully used it on someone, they've dodged after the initial WTw > ABK > Bair and been immediately kicked into the second combo by the LCHSK.

It's such hard work to get down to a consistent level, but I really think the reward will be worth it.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Witch Time does so regardless of timing, as long as you land on the ground while she's in the animation (landing towards the end of the animation practically allows her to attack immediately upon landing). You just don't really wanna use it that way - but you can, for sure. And it's effective.

Bullet Climax, on the other hand, is intrinsically designed to fire automatically if you've used ABK or WTw in the air already, so you can't do it with it. Otherwise, we could just go into a charged BC stance until we land and then press shield to cancel our lag altogether.

Nah, I don't believe so. But the three times or so I've successfully used it on someone, they've dodged after the initial WTw > ABK > Bair and been immediately kicked into the second combo by the LCHSK.

It's such hard work to get down to a consistent level, but I really think the reward will be worth it.

I think people will just stick to WTw and HSK to LC, unless they're sure the opponent will try to punish them. I didn't know about that BC mechanic, but now that I do, I wish that you could do that...

Also, the combo is a frame trap then? Well, that's nearly as good as it being true! I'll need to practice that, but it is definitely tricky to pull off.

 

[ぱみゅ]

While Bayonetta's combos aren't 100% guaranteed, they all set up for reads on their (S)DI, Frame Traps, and TONS of 50/50s, a lot of them being lethal.

 

[Flamegeyser]

While Bayonetta's combos aren't 100% guaranteed, they all set up for reads on their (S)DI, Frame Traps, and TONS of 50/50s, a lot of them being lethal.

You're not wrong, but you could also just go with the guaranteed normal combos that do damage instead of kill.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's the point of a Frame Trap: being able to either do safe or guaranteed stuff, or force a reaction and get a harder punish.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Well, since this seems to the the only active thread on the Bayonetta, forums, I'll put this here, so people actually see it.

I've found retreating SH Nair BA to be good for covering ledge getups. If you SH backwards from the ledge and immediately hold A, the extended hitboxes cover regular, roll, and jump getups if spaced correctly. It could also potentially tech chase into HSK if they roll.

Hope this helped!

 

[Ghidorah14]

I like using SH nair BA, too, but fast fall in place at the ledge, sometimes more than once. It covers a lot of options as well, but the reason I like to fast fall it is because it baits out a getup attack.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

I like using SH nair BA, too, but fast fall in place at the ledge, sometimes more than once. It covers a lot of options as well, but the reason I like to fast fall it is because it baits out a getup attack.

I've never thought of doing that, that's a good idea. In theory, by baiting the getup attack, you could predict it and WTime it. That's only as a hard read though. Thanks for sharing that!

 

[Ghidorah14]

I've never thought of doing that, that's a good idea. In theory, by baiting the getup attack, you could predict it and WTime it. That's only as a hard read though.

Yeah, it's a hard read, which is why I usually just shield grab them (assuming they do attack) to get them offstage again and attempt a gimp.

Just one more mixup to add to bayo's arsenal.

 

[ElMoro995]

with bayo's good ledge trump->bair I've baited my opponent's ledge roll with a crouch at the ledge and then upsmash to cover the roll more than once

 

[Heracr055]

Hello! Is there a spreadsheet or discussion in one place/post where I can find Bayo's MU spread? The MU thread looks pretty sprawled so I'm not sure (please excuse me if I'm wrong)

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

As far as I know, I'm afraid not. We are happy to answer any questions you have for any MU's, however. Any questions you have regarding a specific MU?

 

[Flamegeyser]

Hello! Is there a spreadsheet or discussion in one place/post where I can find Bayo's MU spread? The MU thread looks pretty sprawled so I'm not sure (please excuse me if I'm wrong)

https://twitter.com/pinkfreshhh
Pink Fresh put down his opinion a few tweets back on our MU spread. I think he's a little crazy, but it's a good starting point.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

https://twitter.com/pinkfreshhh
Pink Fresh put down his opinion a few tweets back on our MU spread. I think he's a little crazy, but it's a good starting point.

Oh! I did not know of this, thank you for posting it!

EDIT: After actually looking at it, it almost looks like a regular tier list, with just a few minor odd placements (like Bayo at the top lol). I also don't know what each of the phrases are supposed to mean. Like, I get they are things she says sometimes, but how do they equate to good and bad MU's?

EDIT 2: Found a different tweet explaining the phrases. So he claims we have only 1 losing MU (Diddy) which is 45:55, and the rest are even or in our favor. Not sure I agree, but oh well. Still looks an awful lot like a regular tier list to me though...

 

[ぱみゅ]

I actually agree with a lot of PF's MUs, except I'd put a -5 to each one (it would start with Diddy at 40-60).
Cloud, Rosa and Mewtwo would move to "50-50" instead of 45-55, where Megaman and Ness now belong to, and would match Marth and Lucina wherever you may want to grade their edgeguard game.
Possibly an advantage against Little Mac and Shulk.
But overall it doesn't look too bad.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Oh! I did not know of this, thank you for posting it!

EDIT: After actually looking at it, it almost looks like a regular tier list, with just a few minor odd placements (like Bayo at the top lol). I also don't know what each of the phrases are supposed to mean. Like, I get they are things she says sometimes, but how do they equate to good and bad MU's?

EDIT 2: Found a different tweet explaining the phrases. So he claims we have only 1 losing MU (Diddy) which is 45:55, and the rest are even or in our favor. Not sure I agree, but oh well. Still looks an awful lot like a regular tier list to me though...

Pink even said later that Diddy should be even he just didn't want it to seem like we have no losing MU's, which we definitely do.
Pink's a bit crazy here, even tho I still super respect him and his opinion, but that's the matchup spread of a top 5 character, and we don't cut it.