Bayonetta Counter Strategies

WiFi

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#1
Everybody is talking about Bayonetta and how she impacts the meta. Since Bayonetta is so important in tournaments, as she can effectively end the bracket run of a character, it is important to know how to fight against Bayonetta. As I don't know every character inside and out, it is up to you, the community, to come up with counter strategies on how to beat Bayonetta with your respective main. The point of this thread is to educate those who want advice on how to play against Bayonetta. Also, responses from Bayonetta mains would be greatly appreciated, as they know the most about Bayonetta.
 

JCbauss

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Oct 3, 2017
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#2
Not a bayo main, but for a corrin main I tend to make sure to get the right spacing and punish accordingly

for example the most common punish for bayo imo is when she does her heel slide alot.

You punish ranges from a simple grab (shield grab during the heel slide) to a smash attack (I tend to F-smash with corrin)

Other than that patience is key, bayo is undoubtedbly the best char in the game, the most optimal strategy is to wait for them to mess up and analyze how they fight before attacking. Maybe listen to relaxing music while playing the match so you wont rage as much :p
 

Frection

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#3
I know this isn't a MU thread but the best thing you can do is to have a secondary to counter her...
Chars who go even:
Sheik, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Bayo herself
Chars who are tough for Bayos to beat (but still lose theoretically):
Corrin, Mewtwo, Marth, Rosa, Sonic (there are more but I forgot)

I know this isn't a MU thread but the best thing you can do is to have a secondary to counter her...
Chars who go even:
Sheik, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Bayo herself
Chars who are tough for Bayos to beat (but still lose theoretically):
Corrin, Mewtwo, Marth, Rosa, Sonic (there are more but I forgot)
Also try and stay at a range where you can react to Heel Slide. It's frame 15 (reaction time is ~22) so you'll need some distance
 
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maybe.

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#4
As a bayo main here are some general things that people who give me trouble do against me: Playing conservatively. Bayo is a character that thrives on punishing her opponent's aggression, using unsafe options against her on shield is probably the easiest way to take an extremely quick L against her. It's also important to be conservative with your follow ups and not go for too many follow ups that aren't true combos especially early in a set when you don't have good reads on your opponent yet, it's way too easy for her to punish an untrue follow up with a witch time or by simply air dodging to get under you and reversing your combo with a witch twist combo. I think people alot of times will feel like "oh I'm playing against bayo I really need to take advantage of each combo starter I get" and will go for crazy follow ups instead of being comfortable getting a few hits in and ending the combo when it's still safe.

SDI is obiously a massive thing that you need to know against bayo and this is more character specific but generally you want to be trying to DI down as hard as you can at low % when stuck in a witch twist to hopefully go under the afterburner kick follow up. At higher % it gets a bit more tricky, floatier characters will generally want to DI upwards at higher % thought it can be risky because if the bayo reads that then she can exploit and maybe get a kill when DIing down would have resulted in you taking a bit more % but surviving. If SDI is a challenge for you then many low to mid tier bayonetta players can be thrown off by simply using regular DI away or in but the most important thing is to never think you can air dodge out of it, trying to air dodge bayo combos is the number one way to get completely dominated by her. It's also important to be consciously thinking about mixing up your DI for her combos throughtout a set, if you get stuck in the same habits then the bayonetta player will figure out your habits and adjust accordingly by switching the order they throw the moves and jumps out in.

Another thing that's really important to be aware of is paying attention to how many special attacks she is throwing out while in the air. The way her combos work is that every B move she uses while in the air creates more lag for her on landing. Pay attention to times where your opponent is throwing out and missing special attacks in the air and be ready to exploit her landing when you know the lag is going to be massive

I hope this helps some people out, and hopefully helps people understand that she does have flaws that can be exploited. If you have good reaction skills forcing her to approach is usually the best general strategy you're going to want to use, basically all of her good combo starting approach options can power shielded and punished pretty easily and her grab is honestly not very threatening because up throw to up B stops being a good combo above like 50% on most characters so it's by far her least threatening option. Many bayo players have a habit of trying to abuse heel slide which is the move you should looking to punish more than anything else, this move can easily be shielded and punished if your reaction time is good enough.
 

Shizuka Kawai

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#5
As a bayo main here are some general things that people who give me trouble do against me: Playing conservatively. Bayo is a character that thrives on punishing her opponent's aggression, using unsafe options against her on shield is probably the easiest way to take an extremely quick L against her. It's also important to be conservative with your follow ups and not go for too many follow ups that aren't true combos especially early in a set when you don't have good reads on your opponent yet, it's way too easy for her to punish an untrue follow up with a witch time or by simply air dodging to get under you and reversing your combo with a witch twist combo. I think people alot of times will feel like "oh I'm playing against bayo I really need to take advantage of each combo starter I get" and will go for crazy follow ups instead of being comfortable getting a few hits in and ending the combo when it's still safe.

SDI is obiously a massive thing that you need to know against bayo and this is more character specific but generally you want to be trying to DI down as hard as you can at low % when stuck in a witch twist to hopefully go under the afterburner kick follow up. At higher % it gets a bit more tricky, floatier characters will generally want to DI upwards at higher % thought it can be risky because if the bayo reads that then she can exploit and maybe get a kill when DIing down would have resulted in you taking a bit more % but surviving. If SDI is a challenge for you then many low to mid tier bayonetta players can be thrown off by simply using regular DI away or in but the most important thing is to never think you can air dodge out of it, trying to air dodge bayo combos is the number one way to get completely dominated by her. It's also important to be consciously thinking about mixing up your DI for her combos throughtout a set, if you get stuck in the same habits then the bayonetta player will figure out your habits and adjust accordingly by switching the order they throw the moves and jumps out in.

Another thing that's really important to be aware of is paying attention to how many special attacks she is throwing out while in the air. The way her combos work is that every B move she uses while in the air creates more lag for her on landing. Pay attention to times where your opponent is throwing out and missing special attacks in the air and be ready to exploit her landing when you know the lag is going to be massive

I hope this helps some people out, and hopefully helps people understand that she does have flaws that can be exploited. If you have good reaction skills forcing her to approach is usually the best general strategy you're going to want to use, basically all of her good combo starting approach options can power shielded and punished pretty easily and her grab is honestly not very threatening because up throw to up B stops being a good combo above like 50% on most characters so it's by far her least threatening option. Many bayo players have a habit of trying to abuse heel slide which is the move you should looking to punish more than anything else, this move can easily be shielded and punished if your reaction time is good enough.
Basically this. While no anti-strategy is a certainty against my girl the Umbra Witch, we shall take what we can get. The best we can do at the moment is good reactive play and SDI.

Sate...I do not know if this has been mentioned yet, but would it not be beneficial to take her to Final Destination? If I am not mistaken, :4bayonetta: loves platforms. With those, it can extend combos for her, pressure opponents with her great aerial game, escape projectile pressure. But here on Final Destination...no such luck. On the flip side, though, she can utilize her ground moves better but then again Heel Slide is easy to see and her mediocre frame data on ground attacks becomes more obvious here.

WiFi WiFi : Good luck with this thread. I like what you are doing. I, a 56-year-old non-competitive female Smasher, have been practicing :4bayonetta2: for six months now and would love to learn more anti-Bayo strategies so I can prepare for them.

Sayonara :kirby:
 
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maybe.

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Messages
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#6
Basically this. While no anti-strategy is a certainty against my girl the Umbra Witch, we shall take what we can get. The best we can do at the moment is good reactive play and SDI.

Sate...I do not know if this has been mentioned yet, but would it not be beneficial to take her to Final Destination? If I am not mistaken, :4bayonetta: loves platforms. With those, it can extend combos for her, pressure opponents with her great aerial game, escape projectile pressure. But here on Final Destination...no such luck. On the flip side, though, she can utilize her ground moves better but then again Heel Slide is easy to see and her mediocre frame data on ground attacks becomes more obvious here.

WiFi WiFi : Good luck with this thread. I like what you are doing. I, a 56-year-old non-competitive female Smasher, have been practicing :4bayonetta2: for six months now and would love to learn more anti-Bayo strategies so I can prepare for them.

Sayonara :kirby:

I think I agree with that assessment, unfortunately she does have advantages even on FD ( I think it makes her nair spam and her bullet arts in general more effective) it does take away her ability to platform camp (salem being the most famous for this) and it takes away some early kill potential, getting caught with an up B off a platform on any platform stage can result in instant death at basically any % (when talking about pro players), her height also results in her utilt being especially effective on platform stages because basically any platform outside of town and city sets up perfect for the good hit box of her up tilt.

So ya, I think it makes sense that FD is probably the best stage to take her to, this is especially true if you play a projectile character, maybe it's just because I'm not very good but I tend to have alot of trouble against good Link players when I encounter them on for glory, he can effectively wall her out and force her to approach high usually with nair and he can take advantage of that with utilt and usmash, maybe I'm missing something but I haven't ever seen people talk about Link as a good counter option against her and he is definitely a character I struggle against, but I guess she can be much more effective against his projectile wall on platform stages just because it gives her more approach options from using platforms to dodge all his walling tools.
 

WiFi

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#7
Bayonetta's ability to platform camp is definitely a huge plus to her. FD is probably her worst stage, as her opponent's percentage for combos actually matters. Nairplanes are beatable though, if you have an aerial that can trade well with it.
 

WiFi

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#8
Basically this. While no anti-strategy is a certainty against my girl the Umbra Witch, we shall take what we can get. The best we can do at the moment is good reactive play and SDI.

Sate...I do not know if this has been mentioned yet, but would it not be beneficial to take her to Final Destination? If I am not mistaken, :4bayonetta: loves platforms. With those, it can extend combos for her, pressure opponents with her great aerial game, escape projectile pressure. But here on Final Destination...no such luck. On the flip side, though, she can utilize her ground moves better but then again Heel Slide is easy to see and her mediocre frame data on ground attacks becomes more obvious here.

WiFi WiFi : Good luck with this thread. I like what you are doing. I, a 56-year-old non-competitive female Smasher, have been practicing :4bayonetta2: for six months now and would love to learn more anti-Bayo strategies so I can prepare for them.

Sayonara :kirby:
Thanks, I hope this thread gets more popular so we can learn as a community, instead of wasting time arguing about bans and the such, its much more proactive to talk about the character in depth so the community as a whole adapts.
 

Uffe

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#9
Are platforms Bayo's best friend? I fought a Bayo today and didn't try to perform a ton of combos on her, because I was afraid she might somehow Witch Time me. I lost the first match miserably, but I took the set in the end with my safer options. I would love to know how to deal with her, and "maybe.'s" post looks informative.
 

maybe.

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#11
Are platforms Bayo's best friend? I fought a Bayo today and didn't try to perform a ton of combos on her, because I was afraid she might somehow Witch Time me. I lost the first match miserably, but I took the set in the end with my safer options. I would love to know how to deal with her, and "maybe.'s" post looks informative.
I think what you're saying is actually sound advice for others also, if you're playing a set with a bayo it's typically better to play really conservative and stick to only your true combos in the first game of a set, once you have solid info on how your opponent is using witch time and situations they like to use it in then you can start going for more follow ups when you have good reads on when they are and aren't going to use it. Another thing to pay attention to is how many times they've used witch time throughout the game. Since it stales rather quickly whether or not it hits you can start to worry about it less once you've seen it come out a few times (after the 3rd use is when it starts to become really useless) so after you've seen it come out a few times you can assume they're going to stop using it so it can have some time to recharge and that is when you can really go for longer and less safe punishes.
 

InfinitySoul

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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#12
Thank you for the thread, I hope we can do something productive about Bayo for once.

I think what you're saying is actually sound advice for others also, if you're playing a set with a bayo it's typically better to play really conservative and stick to only your true combos in the first game of a set, once you have solid info on how your opponent is using witch time and situations they like to use it in then you can start going for more follow ups when you have good reads on when they are and aren't going to use it. Another thing to pay attention to is how many times they've used witch time throughout the game. Since it stales rather quickly whether or not it hits you can start to worry about it less once you've seen it come out a few times (after the 3rd use is when it starts to become really useless) so after you've seen it come out a few times you can assume they're going to stop using it so it can have some time to recharge and that is when you can really go for longer and less safe punishes.
Do you know how wt refills work ? How long does it take to refill ? Does it refill gradually ?
 

maybe.

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#14
Thank you for the thread, I hope we can do something productive about Bayo for once.



Do you know how wt refills work ? How long does it take to refill ? Does it refill gradually ?
Quoting from smash wiki here:

"Witch Time begins at a base duration of 180 frames, but increases by 1 frame for every 10% damage the opponent has, up to a maximum of 240 frames. Each use decreases the duration by 75 frames, down to a minimum duration of 30 frames (2 continuous uses). This floor is applied before the damage modifier, meaning a 600% opponent will be slowed down for 30 + 60 or 90 frames. Its duration recharges by 0.06 frames for every frame it is not used; thus it takes 1250 frames or ~20.8 seconds to recharge from one use of Witch Time"
 

WiFi

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#15
Baiting out Witch Times is very stressful, but bait it like you would a Smash attack or Counter. Once it is used once or twice, you don't have to worry about it anymore, as 20 seconds is more than enough time for a character to deal 70%.
 
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#16

WiFi

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#17
Snagged this document from the Bayonetta Discord. It has all of their resource information in one document.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YjnOK9fLws6y4IwrEFOmpgM-KQRvDBTKrAMWJVwZzX0/edit?usp=sharing

So far I read part 1 & 2 of the guide, planking, fair 1 safety, the fun fact, optimal sdi, crouch hitbox, and their terminology. The lylat tilt link does not work.
Hmm, nice. We have their secrets now. :). Anyway, the Witch Twist Hitbox only covers the top half of her body, the AfterBurner Kick is far more disjointed.
 

WiFi

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#22
ESAM just made a couple of Bayonetta SDI guides. Check them out, they are very helpful in learning how to escape her infamous super-combos.
 
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