Bayo buffs explained/discussed

edde

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
573
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Caracas, Venezuela
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edmichu
#1
With patch 3.1.0 Bayonetta received some love, here are the changes from the official nintendo patch notes found here: https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45405

This is my personal analysis on the buffs:

Neutral Attack 1 Increased the amount of time hit detection lasts.
Jab's first hit should hit more consistently/have more priority, the hitbox should linger for more time while the move's lag data stays untouched

Flurry Attack Finish Extended launch distance.
The full jab flurry finisher hit now kills earlier... not needed this part of her kit specifically, but kill power is welcome any day and I won't complain

Dash Attack Extended launch distance for the high-damage range.
Dash attack kills earlier... dash attack killed? maybe we'll start seeing KO's at 200-250%? idk... same as above (not needed this part of her kit specifically, but kill power is welcome any day and I won't complain)

Up Tilt Attack Made it easier to hit multiple times.
Buff's are always welcome, but bayo's uptilt was already a pretty good anti-air move (you just needed to be consistently facing the oponent), but all in all, a good move got a buff, lets see what new applications this can have

Down Smash Attack Increased the amount of time hit detection lasts.
If the hitbox lingers a bit longer, this will be mayor. Her trap game will be turned up a tiny notch... which is a lot on a skilled player's hands

Side Special Reduced vulnerability when landing.
I believe her landing lag for flying too much will be less punishing... great buff, can't measure its power yet though... Personally I was kind of against this buff because I always believed her flying combos have the potential to be some of the best of the game and a combo this powerful does indeed need a weakness... although the previous lag was way too punishing... Could be the best buff of all, or could be worthless, can't tell right now

Up Special Reduced vulnerability when landing.
Read above, the combo's lag was determined by how many upb's and sideb's were used

Down Special Increased the amount of time counter detection lasts.
Increased the amount of time Bat Within’s detection lasts.
Increased the recovery speed of Witch Time's duration.

Witch time, although nerfed, was still good... one of the better counters of the game IMO. This is probably the biggest or second biggest buff to her on this patch.


Overall analysis: These buffs were indeed a step in the right direction, Bayo was weak (maybe still is a bit weak). Can't really tell if they will make her OP again (most likely they won't), but one can't be sure about many minor buffs to an already overloaded kit.

All of these buffs are welcome, although they don't tackle bayo's main weakness which is her sucky neutral and they barely did anything to help her kill (I still believe these earlier kill buffs are pretty meh, but always welcome).

Personally, these were the buffs i was looking for on her kit:

I would have given her a more complete hitbox of her Fsmash to fully cover what the arm shows and reduce a bit of its endlag (it has more endlag than ganon/bowser with half the damage/killpower). This fsmash buff would give her a solid kill option which she lacks... dont get me wrong, although i liked the buffs, the dsmash was already fine and a jab finisher/predictable dash attack aren't very consistent.

Increase a bit her some of her base stats, most importantly ground movement speed and weight (she suffers from mew2 syndrome... too tall, too light)

INCREASE HER GRAB RANGE. for an already slow character with low priority and very punishable aproaches, her grab range is pretty damn bad (maybe the worst of the game)

Well, the discussed part on the title means that i may not be 100% right, I always appreciate when I get corrected so feel free to post your opinions and corrections.
 
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Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 29, 2018
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#2
I would love if some brave soul could get us some exact numbers here.

What does this mean as far as Bayo's playstlye goes? I pretty much dropped her because neutral sucked and it was too hard to kill. It seems like this is largely still true, but with a buff to jab, dash attack, down smash, and Witch Time...maybe I can become a believer?
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
1,246
#3
The biggest part about the Bayo buffs are the landing lag reduction and the overall Witch Time buff.

The landing lag buff seems to be most noticeable on 2 or 3 special move combos like UpB SideB or UpB SideB SideB. This makes it harder to punish and let her quickly get back in the fight after a combo.

Witch Time effectively got both a reliability buff and a duration buff. If SmashWiki is correct, the startup remains at frame 8 but now good Witch Time counter last the to frame 23 instead of frame 17 with no Bat Within Witch Time anymore. Keep in mind, Smash 4 Bayonetta has 5-16 of good Witch Time and 17-21 of Bat Within Witch Time. So while the overall counter last 1 frame less, good Witch Time last 4 frames longer compared to Smash 4.

The increase speed of Witch Time regeneration means overall Witch Time will last longer while having the same cap, combined with the fact that most of the duration comes from the damage scaling, you can more easily spam Witch Time at higher percent.
 

Phoenix_is_OK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
103
#6
Can you help me understand how to read this?
The Regen factor works like this:
After using Witch Time, you lose some activation time (WT frames) and it slowly regenerates back over time. The previous factor, 0.03, means that in 100 frames, or 1.666 seconds, 3 frames of Witch Time are regenerated. Now, 4 frames of Witch Time regenerates in 1.666 seconds.

TL;DR Witch Time goes back to full charge sooner
 

Kokiden

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
439
#8
Glad Bayo got buffed and all but she could really use some more tbh.

WT needs to last a little bit longer, and she needs more kill options. Bair, and her smash attacks only when the opponent is at a high percentage aren't that reliable in a high paced game.

There was a match with Captain Zack and this guy who was using PT in a major recently. Fair should've killed since he was a high percent, but it didn't and the other guy ended up winning. They really did her dirty in Ultimate.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#9
Glad Bayo got buffed and all but she could really use some more tbh.

WT needs to last a little bit longer, and she needs more kill options. Bair, and her smash attacks only when the opponent is at a high percentage aren't that reliable in a high paced game.

There was a match with Captain Zack and this guy who was using PT in a major recently. Fair should've killed since he was a high percent, but it didn't and the other guy ended up winning. They really did her dirty in Ultimate.
Agreed, I think her combo KO options need to be a little more potent. I think fair needs to send opponents more horizontally, and perhaps make up air send more vertically (not smash 4 levels, but yknow, actually slightly upwards). It's obvious that they don't intend to make Bayo have very strong out-right kill moves, so that means her KOs revolve around combos. That's hard to balance, since combo kills mean early kills, which are easily OP.

It's a tough situation honestly. Just her whole archetype is on the border of being Good Broken and Bad Broken. And I think our time of being Good Broken is over.
 

Kokiden

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Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
439
#10
Agreed, I think her combo KO options need to be a little more potent. I think fair needs to send opponents more horizontally, and perhaps make up air send more vertically (not smash 4 levels, but yknow, actually slightly upwards). It's obvious that they don't intend to make Bayo have very strong out-right kill moves, so that means her KOs revolve around combos. That's hard to balance, since combo kills mean early kills, which are easily OP.

It's a tough situation honestly. Just her whole archetype is on the border of being Good Broken and Bad Broken. And I think our time of being Good Broken is over.
Bayo's recent patch gives me hope somewhat.

If the balance dev team are looking at online, and tournament results, to give them an idea of what to patch, then I suspect there may be more patches for her to come in the future.

Reason for this is I've heard a lot of people dropped her altogether, and her presence in tournaments is basically non existent with the sole exception of Captain Zack using her.

Her low usage numbers must be signalling to the devs that she's not fun to use.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
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Location
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#11
Bayo's recent patch gives me hope somewhat.

If the balance dev team are looking at online, and tournament results, to give them an idea of what to patch, then I suspect there may be more patches for her to come in the future.

Reason for this is I've heard a lot of people dropped her altogether, and her presence in tournaments is basically non existent with the sole exception of Captain Zack using her.

Her low usage numbers must be signalling to the devs that she's not fun to use.
Oh, 100% agreed. Something definitely needs to change to make her more usable. But I think it's obvious they're slowly trying to distance her from Smash 4 Bayo. The good news is, I think they decided it's time to start pushing her forward again. I'm just not sure where they'll stop, and I hope it's not here.
 
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