Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[RetrogamerMax]

Here's an interview at US Gamer that reveals why Kirkhope stuck to his guns in regards to cart-based music, among other insightful stuff.

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/david-wise-and-grant-kirkhope-interview

Wow! I didn't know David Wise has been composing music since the late 1960s. I guess you learn something new everyday.

 

[Banjoisawesome2020]

I can't play tomorrow because my uncle is in town and I'm spending time with him plus I have to get some rest before going to work. Perhaps sometime next week after he leaves and I have more time on my hands.

Oh. Well OK. Everyone else, I am setting up my arena now.

My arena's password: 1989, which is my birth year. My name is Sam, which is my real name. So please join. Custom Stages allowed, so show me the most creative ones you made or saved! And thank you all for joining. Oh and arena ID is 41J7M.

No one's showing up...

I will try again later. But I was really excited though...

 

[dlewis53]

So, I just discovered something interesting that potentially relates to the upcoming ARMS fighter:

While browsing the Assist Trophy page for Smash Bros on Tv Tropes, I found a claim that Knuckles can't appear as an Assist Trophy if the stage you're on is Green Hill Zone (due to him already appearing in the background), so I decided to go to Training mode to test this, and sure enough, when I went to the list of AT summons, he wasn't there. And when I went to Final Destination, he was back in the list. What's more, I noticed that on a stage like King of Fighters Stadium, there's a decent handful of Assist Trophies that don't show up (such as Andross, the Arcade Bunny, Kapp'n, and Isaac just to name a few).

This is interesting to me because it suggests that it is indeed possible to program a particular Assist Trophy summon to not appear under certain circumstances. Which says to me that the potential for the upcoming ARMS fighter to be Spring Man just got increased, because now I can imagine that if he is selected as a fighter, then he's just automatically removed from the list of summonable Assist Trophies for that game (assuming the item is active in the first place).

So, yeah, TLDR: It does indeed seem to be possible to program Assist Trophy summons to not appear under certain circumstances. As such, I'm predicting that Spring Man will be the ARMS fighter, and other ARMS characters are going to be featured as alternate costumes for him.

 

[Megadoomer]

So, I just discovered something interesting that potentially relates to the upcoming ARMS fighter:

While browsing the Assist Trophy page for Smash Bros on Tv Tropes, I found a claim that Knuckles can't appear as an Assist Trophy if the stage you're on is Green Hill Zone (due to him already appearing in the background), so I decided to go to Training mode to test this, and sure enough, when I went to the list of AT summons, he wasn't there. And when I went to Final Destination, he was back in the list. What's more, I noticed that on a stage like King of Fighters Stadium, there's a decent handful of Assist Trophies that don't show up (such as Andross, the Arcade Bunny, Kapp'n, and Isaac just to name a few).

This is interesting to me because it suggests that it is indeed possible to program a particular Assist Trophy summon to not appear under certain circumstances. Which says to me that the potential for the upcoming ARMS fighter to be Spring Man just got increased, because now I can imagine that if he is selected as a fighter, then he's just automatically removed from the list of summonable Assist Trophies for that game (assuming the item is active in the first place).

So, yeah, TLDR: It does indeed seem to be possible to program Assist Trophy summons to not appear under certain circumstances. As such, I'm predicting that Spring Man will be the ARMS fighter, and other ARMS characters are going to be featured as alternate costumes for him.

Yeah, there are a few cases like that. The Moon doesn't show up on the Great Bay stage since it appears in the background, and Alucard doesn't show up on the Wii Fit Studio stage because there's a giant mirror in the background and vampires don't have reflections. People use that to argue that assist trophies could be promoted through DLC, though it's hard to say for sure. (we've never had a promotion like that happen within the same game)

 

[dlewis53]

Yeah, there are a few cases like that. The Moon doesn't show up on the Great Bay stage since it appears in the background, and Alucard doesn't show up on the Wii Fit Studio stage because there's a giant mirror in the background and vampires don't have reflections. People use that to argue that assist trophies could be promoted through DLC, though it's hard to say for sure. (we've never had a promotion like that happen within the same game)

I admit, I'm not a computer programmer, so I could be wrong here, but what I suggested doesn't really seem like something that would be that hard to program, especially since there's a precedent for Assist Trophy summons being programmed to not appear under certain circumstances. So I do think it's possible that Spring Man could be the first in-game promotion from Assist Trophy to fighter.

 

[Banjoisawesome2020]

I admit, I'm not a computer programmer, so I could be wrong here, but what I suggested doesn't really seem like something that would be that hard to program, especially since there's a precedent for Assist Trophy summons being programmed to not appear under certain circumstances. So I do think it's possible that Spring Man could be the first in-game promotion from Assist Trophy to fighter.

That could mean Krystal could join her Rare bretheren on the battlefield! Finally being there with DK, Diddy, K. Rool and of course, Banjo & Kazooie!

 

[CosmicQuark]

So, I just discovered something interesting that potentially relates to the upcoming ARMS fighter:

While browsing the Assist Trophy page for Smash Bros on Tv Tropes, I found a claim that Knuckles can't appear as an Assist Trophy if the stage you're on is Green Hill Zone (due to him already appearing in the background), so I decided to go to Training mode to test this, and sure enough, when I went to the list of AT summons, he wasn't there. And when I went to Final Destination, he was back in the list. What's more, I noticed that on a stage like King of Fighters Stadium, there's a decent handful of Assist Trophies that don't show up (such as Andross, the Arcade Bunny, Kapp'n, and Isaac just to name a few).

This is interesting to me because it suggests that it is indeed possible to program a particular Assist Trophy summon to not appear under certain circumstances. Which says to me that the potential for the upcoming ARMS fighter to be Spring Man just got increased, because now I can imagine that if he is selected as a fighter, then he's just automatically removed from the list of summonable Assist Trophies for that game (assuming the item is active in the first place).

So, yeah, TLDR: It does indeed seem to be possible to program Assist Trophy summons to not appear under certain circumstances. As such, I'm predicting that Spring Man will be the ARMS fighter, and other ARMS characters are going to be featured as alternate costumes for him.

I've always thought "ATs can't be fighters" was a silly fan rule that would inevitably be disproven, for the reasons you mentioned. That being said, one possibility against Spring Man is the way they announced the ARMS rep--you would think if it was the one on the box, it wouldn't be surprising at all, so why cause people to speculate and get their hopes up for more niche characters? That being said, given the situation surrounding the Direct, and the weird way they presented it (short, using old clips, mentioning they had to extend development time), part of me thinks it was originally going to be a full CG trailer for the character, but it wouldn't have been finished in time for the Direct, replaced with what we got. Felt like a Nintendo ad, rather than the typical Smash epic style announcement. And it's not unlike Nintendo to hype up a character reveal that would inevitably disappoint a lot of people, so while some may think Nintendo wouldn't do that, I have a feeling that is precisely what Nintendo would do.

Personally I'd prefer Springman/Ribbon Girl as the other characters feel like a supporting cast, would feel weird having one of them be the sole representative, despite me liking the designs of Ninjara, Min Min, Lola Pop more than the faces of the game. So I expect Springman, and his AT would either never come up when Springman's on stage, removed, or, less likely, replaced by Springtron. Even less likely is it being a multiple fighter rep--his rules with regards of what is considered an alt costume, echo, clone, etc. seem inconsistent, but in general if they have a different model it's harder to make them the same character. And given this is DLC, they'll have less time and resources than if they were base game characters.

 

[dlewis53]

I've always thought "ATs can't be fighters" was a silly fan rule that would inevitably be disproven, for the reasons you mentioned. That being said, one possibility against Spring Man is the way they announced the ARMS rep--you would think if it was the one on the box, it wouldn't be surprising at all, so why cause people to speculate and get their hopes up for more niche characters? That being said, given the situation surrounding the Direct, and the weird way they presented it (short, using old clips, mentioning they had to extend development time), part of me thinks it was originally going to be a full CG trailer for the character, but it wouldn't have been finished in time for the Direct, replaced with what we got. Felt like a Nintendo ad, rather than the typical Smash epic style announcement. And it's not unlike Nintendo to hype up a character reveal that would inevitably disappoint a lot of people, so while some may think Nintendo wouldn't do that, I have a feeling that is precisely what Nintendo would do.

Personally I'd prefer Springman/Ribbon Girl as the other characters feel like a supporting cast, would feel weird having one of them be the sole representative, despite me liking the designs of Ninjara, Min Min, Lola Pop more than the faces of the game. So I expect Springman, and his AT would either never come up when Springman's on stage, removed, or, less likely, replaced by Springtron. Even less likely is it being a multiple fighter rep--his rules with regards of what is considered an alt costume, echo, clone, etc. seem inconsistent, but in general if they have a different model it's harder to make them the same character. And given this is DLC, they'll have less time and resources than if they were base game characters.

Personally, the reason I think they didn't outright say that it was Spring Man was because they're planning something similar to either Hero or Bowser Jr. where some or even all of his alts are going to be other ARMS characters. Because, yeah, if it was just Spring Man and nothing else, it wouldn't make much sense to not just say that it's Spring Man instead of going "it's a character from ARMS".

 

[RetrogamerMax]

That could mean Krystal could join her Rare bretheren on the battlefield! Finally being there with DK, Diddy, K. Rool and of course, Banjo & Kazooie!

As much as I really want Krystal, I don't see her being likely at the slightest even if we get a few Assist Trophy promotions.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

As much as It sucks to say, But I don't see any Rare characters making it in the "Season 2 Fighter Pass".

Banjo-Kazooie and King K.Rool were far away the biggest fish in the Rareware tank and just in another league of their own in terms of fan support.

Donkey Kong was pretty much the last "Major" Nintendo IP that was missing it's "Main Antagonist" in the roster and if anyone was gonna represent Rare as a whole without a doubt it was gonna be their biggest and most popular classic IP in Banjo-Kazooie.

Dixie Kong pretty much is the distant 3rd after K.Rool and BK and is the current leader and the most likely out of the remaining bunch to make it in seeing how she's 1st Party, Donkey Kong is a major IP and Diddy Kong can be used as a base/foundation, But even I don't think that's enough for her to make it in Season 2.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Banjo-Kazooie and King K.Rool were the biggest fish in the Rareware tank and just in another league of their own in terms of fan support.

Now you realise it. Those two got so much support during the ballot days that absolutely everyone else from Rareware was practically ignored by the fanbase, in comparison. At best, Dixie and Lanky had slightly more attention than the rest by the time the above two got in.

This is why support should be equal, rather than throwing all chips into one or two numbers.

At least Dixie's been acknowledged with a Mii hat for this time, and the other Kongs got spirits, Conker, JFG and other IPs couldn't even get that.

The only positive is that most fans agree about specific characters for DK and Rare. For the middle of next decade or so, the main objective is to rally up support for them and keep the flame of passion burning.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Personally, the reason I think they didn't outright say that it was Spring Man was because they're planning something similar to either Hero or Bowser Jr. where some or even all of his alts are going to be other ARMS characters. Because, yeah, if it was just Spring Man and nothing else, it wouldn't make much sense to not just say that it's Spring Man instead of going "it's a character from ARMS".

Personally I think that, even if it is or isn’t just Spring Man, they likely didn’t think about Spring Man being “the most obvious” or whatever. Sure, he’s the main mascot, but still, they also could’ve just flat-out said who it was if it’s another character. I think this is really just their way of marketing ARMs and building some hype; announce an ARMs character will be in Smash, put out a free ARMs trial to entice potential new fans and buyers and let them get to know the characters, have people be talking about “who could it be?!?!”, and finally announce + release the character for an extra burst of ARMs marketing and hype. The winner of the upcoming Smash tournament they’re holding even gets a free download code for ARMs (and Splatoon 2 which seems to have been getting a marketing push too tbh but likely nothing to do with Smash).

This works whether the character is Spring Man or another character, as Spring Man still has a lot of fans from what I’ve seen, and I like him too personally as I guess I tend to like most mascot characters and I find his abilities interesting, even if his weapons are more “basic” compared to other characters. Though others like Min Min would also be cool.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Personally I think that, even if it is or isn’t just Spring Man, they likely didn’t think about Spring Man being “the most obvious” or whatever. Sure, he’s the main mascot, but still, they also could’ve just flat-out said who it was if it’s another character. I think this is really just their way of marketing ARMs and building some hype; announce an ARMs character will be in Smash, put out a free ARMs trial to entice potential new fans and buyers and let them get to know the characters, have people be talking about “who could it be?!?!”, and finally announce + release the character for an extra burst of ARMs marketing and hype. The winner of the upcoming Smash tournament they’re holding even gets a free download code for ARMs (and Splatoon 2 which seems to have been getting a marketing push too tbh but likely nothing to do with Smash).

This works whether the character is Spring Man or another character, as Spring Man still has a lot of fans from what I’ve seen, and I like him too personally as I guess I tend to like most mascot characters and I find his abilities interesting, even if his weapons are more “basic” compared to other characters. Though others like Min Min would also be cool.

Only one small issue with all that; Nintendo is unpredictable. Even getting a Direct at the most logical time (June) isn't going to happen, so we have no conceivable idea what the final outcome will be and for what reason.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Only one small issue with all that; Nintendo is unpredictable. Even getting a Direct at the most logical time (June) isn't going to happen, so we have no conceivable idea what the final outcome will be and for what reason.

They can still successfully market ARMs and Smash by announcing the reveal in an upcoming Sakurai Presents video or something - technically even if they randomly drop it on twitter, though that’s not as “grand” I guess. I think a Sakurai Presents video is the most-likely, however, since his videos aren’t considered “Directs” it seems. I still feel this was done mainly for marketing though, which makes the most sense imo unless they just didn’t have the reveal video ready for some reason. Spring Man definitely shouldn’t be less likely because of it; he was even kept on the roster image they showed.

 

[CosmicQuark]

As much as It sucks to say, But I don't see any Rare characters making it in the "Season 2 Fighter Pass".

Banjo-Kazooie and King K.Rool were far away the biggest fish in the Rareware tank and just in another league of their own in terms of fan support.

Donkey Kong was pretty much the last "Major" Nintendo IP that was missing it's "Main Antagonist" in the roster and if anyone was gonna represent Rare as whole without a doubt it was gonna be their biggest and most popular classic IP in Banjo-Kazooie.

Dixie Kong pretty much is the distant 3rd after K.Rool and BK and is the current leader and the most likely out of the remaining bunch to make it in seeing how she's 1st Party, Donkey Kong is a major IP and Diddy Kong can be used as a base/foundation, But even I don't think that's enough for her to make it in Season 2.

Yeah, I feel like supporting reps from already represented franchises makes more sense as base game additions than DLC, both from a financial and a personal preference perspective (unless after Vol 2, they do single character DLC). Smash ignores what could be a really unique Star Fox character in the form of Krystal, and Dixie would have been a perfect semi-clone addition in the vain of Isabelle. I feel like in future games--if there's enough characters to include Peach and Zelda, more heroines should come (e.g., Dixie, Krystal, etc), and if there's enough characters to include Bowser, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, then villains like Ridley and K Rool should return as well. Have as many sidekicks, heroines and villains for the original 8 as you can. I think Dixie and Krystal would have made more interesting semi-clones/unique characters than some that got in the base game, but it is what it is.

And, of course, when it comes to Rare characters, I'd still really like Conker to have that weird mix of more DKR representation, as well as the WTF moment when Conker comes with his (toned-down) mature cartoonish antics. But I'd say that has a .1% chance of actually happening.

 

[Dinoman96]

More than anything I lament the absence of a "mature" Rare character. By "mature" I mean a character that isn't a googily eyed mascot.

One of the biggest keys to Rare's success during the SNES/N64 era was just how diverse their game lineup was. Sure, they were making family friendly platformers like DKC and Banjo, but at the same time you also had more "gritty" games like Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007 and Perfect Dark. I know I'm sounding greedy but I think it's unfortunate that only one aspect of Rare's lineup (the cartoony platformers) is represented in Smash.

Now of course James Bond will never happen for obvious reasons so that just leaves us with Fulgore and Joanna Dark. I think Killer Instinct in Smash would be cool from a historical standpoint considering that it basically predates Smash Bros. and ARMS as Nintendo's premiere fighting game IP (I believe they co-owned it with Rare, like with Banjo) and not to mention having Beanland's kickass soundtrack in Smash, but unfortunately the Nintendo published KI games were never actually released in Japan, so sadly even if Rare was still with Nintendo, it probably wouldn't of been included in Smash, at least in a major way.

So I guess that leaves us with just Joanna. Perfect Dark is already an interesting part of Smash history in that it was actually the first original Rare IP to be represented in the series, predating B-K 18 years later. Melee had not one, but two items pertaining to Perfect Dark: the Proximity Mine/Motion Sensor Bomb (reskinned to the Goldeneye version in the west) and the Cloaking Device. So yeah, if we ever got another (non-Nintendo owned) Rare rep in Smash, I'd go with her. Basically the closest we could get to James Bond lol

 

[RetrogamerMax]

As much as It sucks to say, But I don't see any Rare characters making it in the "Season 2 Fighter Pass".

Banjo-Kazooie and King K.Rool were far away the biggest fish in the Rareware tank and just in another league of their own in terms of fan support.

Donkey Kong was pretty much the last "Major" Nintendo IP that was missing it's "Main Antagonist" in the roster and if anyone was gonna represent Rare as a whole without a doubt it was gonna be their biggest and most popular classic IP in Banjo-Kazooie.

Dixie Kong pretty much is the distant 3rd after K.Rool and BK and is the current leader and the most likely out of the remaining bunch to make it in seeing how she's 1st Party, Donkey Kong is a major IP and Diddy Kong can be used as a base/foundation, But even I don't think that's enough for her to make it in Season 2.

Now you realise it. Those two got so much support during the ballot days that absolutely everyone else from Rareware was practically ignored by the fanbase, in comparison. At best, Dixie and Lanky had slightly more attention than the rest by the time the above two got in.

This is why support should be equal, rather than throwing all chips into one or two numbers.

At least Dixie's been acknowledged with a Mii hat for this time, and the other Kongs got spirits, Conker, JFG and other IPs couldn't even get that.

The only positive is that most fans agree about specific characters for DK and Rare. For the middle of next decade or so, the main objective is to rally up support for them and keep the flame of passion burning.

I agree about Dixie being the current Rare leader and most likely Rare character to get in the roster next. But behind K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie I think Krystal was the 3rd most popular Rare character on the Ballot. She still had good support back then and I believe it was her Ballot votes that got her that Assist Trophy.

 

[CosmicQuark]

My ideal rebooted Smash game (the most important aspect being Banjo & Kazooie returning, fingers crossed), would be to have Fox, Krystal and Wolf as Star Fox characters--Krystal already would be unique with a staff and ice powers, and I'd prefer them coming up with something different for Wolf to make him stand out from Fox, something more than a claw attack. Falco could return if there's enough room in the roster (unlikely, given Sakurai's statements--not sure if any series should get multiple reps if it's only ~30 characters)--but like Wolf, I would want them to come up with something completely different. Either that, or make all clones and semi-clones echo fighters.

Get some more Rare representation, as well as making sure all the original 8 series have a heroine and villain.

 

[DougEfresh]

My ideal rebooted Smash game (the most important aspect being Banjo & Kazooie returning, fingers crossed), would be to have Fox, Krystal and Wolf as Star Fox characters--Krystal already would be unique with a staff and ice powers, and I'd prefer them coming up with something different for Wolf to make him stand out from Fox, something more than a claw attack. Falco could return if there's enough room in the roster (unlikely, given Sakurai's statements--not sure if any series should get multiple reps if it's only ~30 characters)--but like Wolf, I would want them to come up with something completely different. Either that, or make all clones and semi-clones echo fighters.

Get some more Rare representation, as well as making sure all the original 8 series have a heroine and villain.

It's hard to say what direction smash will go in next, but I highly doubt the dev team and Sakurai (or whoever else might step in as director for the next iteration) would need to downsize the roster that much. Thirty characters is just 5 more than melee had almost 20 years ago now, and it's likely to be a third of what we'll end up having in Ultimate. I think somewhere between 45-60 characters isn't unreasonable for Smash 6. That way, they can handle balancing needs for certain characters better than they can now with so many in Ultimate, and they can invest a bit more into the single player modes (getting a good adventure mode again would be great).

They'll really just need to market the next game in a much different way to have enough to offer for fans to be appealed by it despite the likely cuts in the roster.

As for your comments on the species, some of their moves look aesthetically similar, but many are pretty different and unique at this point in all honesty. The strengths, weaknesses and playstyles are overall rather distinct from each other. I'm curious what more specifically you'd like to see changed about any of their movesets? I do agree that Krystal would be a great addition though, and after that, Star Fox representation in smash can be considered complete imo.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

If I had to be honest I don't really have much gas left in the tank or a drive to push and rally for other Rare characters.

It's not that I don't want them in, It's just that King K. Rool and Banjo-Kazooie took a lot of years and a lot out of me and they always gave me that gut feeling that eventually they were going to make it in because of their insanely high demand, push and to a certain extent importance.

I just don't see that with the other characters, Sure I hang out sometimes on the Dixie Kong thread and while I am pulling for her, DK, Diddy and hell even Chunky Kong were always my favorite kongs and I usually just hang there to talk about more about Donkey Kong franchise as a whole rather than Dixie.

I kind of promised I would retire my account after Banjo-Kazooie got in and I almost did, But I decided I'm making one big final push for my "Current" most wanted character and that's Crash Bandicoot as he's really the last big 3rd Party character that I can really get behind that has a legitimate shot at making the roster, Kind of wished that I voted for him too alongside K.Rool and Banjo-Kazooie on the 2015 Smash ballot, But was so focused on the other 2.

If Crash Bandicoot makes it in then, I pretty much got everything I could ever wanted and can pretty much retire from Smash speculation.

Personally and hopefully I'm looking to make it 3 years in a row.

2018: King K.Rool
2019: Banjo-Kazooie
2020: Crash Bandicoot?

 

[CosmicQuark]

It's hard to say what direction smash will go in next, but I highly doubt the dev team and Sakurai (or whoever else might step in as director for the next iteration) would need to downsize the roster that much. Thirty characters is just 5 more than melee had almost 20 years ago now, and it's likely to be a third of what we'll end up having in Ultimate. I think somewhere between 45-60 characters isn't unreasonable for Smash 6. That way, they can handle balancing needs for certain characters better than they can now with so many in Ultimate, and they can invest a bit more into the single player modes (getting a good adventure mode again would be great).

They'll really just need to market the next game in a much different way to have enough to offer for fans to be appealed by it despite the likely cuts in the roster.

As for your comments on the species, some of their moves look aesthetically similar, but many are pretty different and unique at this point in all honesty. The strengths, weaknesses and playstyles are overall rather distinct from each other. I'm curious what more specifically you'd like to see changed about any of their movesets? I do agree that Krystal would be a great addition though, and after that, Star Fox representation in smash can be considered complete imo.

I am going based off of what Sakurai said--he mentioned how the original plan of Ultimate would be a complete redesign, and would have resulted in 30-ish characters. There are very few ways to follow up Ultimate--if you offer a similar graphical and play experience, but less content, most people will not want to buy it, even if the new characters are amazing (and outside of Sora and Crash, there aren't that many heavy hitters left). The only way I see them following up Ultimate is having a complete graphical overhaul and a new way to play, to bring in those who are not fans of the current style, which would require having a more limited roster.

Of course, Sakurai says things, and then things sometimes change. I personally don't want a reboot, I want Ultimate to be a games as a service where it just continues as long as possible. Sakurai has said Vol 2 is likely the last for Ultimate, but things could change depending on how the sales go. But in both cases, I'd like to be prepared for either possibility and think through the implications. If Ultimate can't continue indefinitely, the next best thing, for me personally, would be to include as many characters as is possible, like you said. But based on what Sakurai has said, and the financial reality of how that would sell, I doubt that would be the direction they go. Ultimate Plus or Ultimate Lite plus an amazing Story Mode would be sufficient to me, personally.

As for the semi/pseudo-clone status of Star Fox characters--I understand there are nuances in how they play, but I'm talking on a purely big picture level, how it looks to someone uninitiated. To me a truly unique character is someone like Bowser and Bowser Jr--there really aren't any similarities I can think of at the top of my head. Likewise, Krystal would primarily use a staff, and have ice powers, something very different from other Star Fox characters. The same is said by those uninitiated with Fire Emblem--they mostly use a sword and have a counter. I'm less enthused about characters that have similar abilities, but with slight differences in jump, speed, etc. I like characters that are overall different. With Star Fox characters, each one has a reflector, a blaster, a side dash attack, and a fire based launch recovery. I'd much prefer they mix it up more than that in a limited roster, even though there are technical differences such as Wolf going at an angle for their side special. The same goes for all of the clones, semiclones, and pseudoclones (based off of Smash wiki: Chrom/Roy/Marth/Lucina, Daisy/Peach, Pit/Dark Pit, Samus/Dark Samus, Simon/Richter, Mario/Dr. Mario, Pikachu/Pichu, Toon Link/Link/Young Link, Ness/Lucas, Falco/Fox/Wolf, Ryu/Ken, Isabelle/Villager, Captain Falcon/Ganondorf). The worst offender is Ganondorf, particularly since they're not even a part of the same series as the character they're based on. The only exception is echo fighters--I'm fine if characters like Peach and Daisy share moves, so long as they're in a specific category.

Of course, the issue is, and why we have so many clones/semi-clones to begin with, is they take less time to make, and so it's a way of adding more characters than there would be otherwise, and semi-clones are more preferred by fans than full clones. Which is why I'm fine with echo fighters--it's just Ultimate has been inconsistent in the definition (some echoes are identical, while others have major differences from the character they're based on). I'd just expand that category to include all clones/semi-clones, and have one per character. It makes the roster aesthetically better to me, and a more limited roster is an opportunity to pick out the most unique characters from each franchise.

I'm not sure how I'd change the Star Fox characters, personally--I'm not as familiar with the series, so I don't know what moves/weapons/etc from the home series could be used for the characters. But Krystal, based on what we see in Ultimate, is far more unique and has a lot more potential to differentiate herself from Fox, than Falco and Wolf have, and in a rebooted Smash, I'd prefer if they do include Falco and/or Wolf, to make them as unique as Krystal would be.

If I had to be honest I don't really have much gas left in the tank or a drive to push and rally for other Rare characters.

It's not that I don't want them in, It's just that King K. Rool and Banjo-Kazooie took a lot of years and a lot out of me and they always gave me that gut feeling that eventually they were going to make it in because of their insanely high demand, push and to a certain extent importance.

I just don't see that with the other characters, Sure I hang out sometimes on the Dixie Kong thread and while I am pulling for her, DK, Diddy and hell even Chunky Kong were always my favorite kongs and I usually just hang there to talk about more about Donkey Kong franchise as a whole rather than Dixie.

I kind of promised I would retire my account after Banjo-Kazooie got in and I almost did, But I decided I'm making one big final push for my "Current" most wanted character and that's Crash Bandicoot as he's really the last big 3rd Party character that I can really get behind that has a legitimate shot at making the roster, Kind of wished that I voted for him too alongside K.Rool and Banjo-Kazooie on the 2015 Smash ballot, But was so focused on the other 2.

If Crash Bandicoot makes it in then, I pretty much got everything I could ever wanted and can pretty much retire from Smash speculation.

Personally and hopefully I'm looking to make it 3 years in a row.

2018: King K.Rool
2019: Banjo-Kazooie
2020: Crash Bandicoot?

I got my dream character, Banjo & Kazooie, so I'm satisified, regardless of how the rest of the roster comes out. Though, my number 1 pick now is Crash. Much like how I wanted Banjo & Kazooie to complete the Nintendo character line-up for me, I'd like Crash as Mario/Sonic/Crash are the iconic trilogy of the 90s, and I'd like to see that complete. Plus he'd be a great character, and iconic enough to warrant their inclusion.

Edit: Edited to change the Pit/Palutena contrast with Bowser/Bowser Jr. Despite similar origins, I can't think of any similarities in their moves.

 

[DougEfresh]

I am going based off of what Sakurai said--he mentioned how the original plan of Ultimate would be a complete redesign, and would have resulted in 30-ish characters. There are very few ways to follow up Ultimate--if you offer a similar graphical and play experience, but less content, most people will not want to buy it, even if the new characters are amazing (and outside of Sora and Crash, there aren't that many heavy hitters left). The only way I see them following up Ultimate is having a complete graphical overhaul and a new way to play, to bring in those who are not fans of the current style, which would require having a more limited roster.

Of course, Sakurai says things, and then things sometimes change. I personally don't want a reboot, I want Ultimate to be a games as a service where it just continues as long as possible. Sakurai has said Vol 2 is likely the last for Ultimate, but things could change depending on how the sales go. But in both cases, I'd like to be prepared for either possibility and think through the implications. If Ultimate can't continue indefinitely, the next best thing, for me personally, would be to include as many characters as is possible, like you said. But based on what Sakurai has said, and the financial reality of how that would sell, I doubt that would be the direction they go. Ultimate Plus or Ultimate Lite plus an amazing Story Mode would be sufficient to me, personally.

As for the semi/pseudo-clone status of Star Fox characters--I understand there are nuances in how they play, but I'm talking on a purely big picture level, how it looks to someone uninitiated. To me a truly unique character is someone like Bowser and Bowser Jr--there really aren't any similarities I can think of at the top of my head. Likewise, Krystal would primarily use a staff, and have ice powers, something very different from other Star Fox characters. The same is said by those uninitiated with Fire Emblem--they mostly use a sword and have a counter. I'm less enthused about characters that have similar abilities, but with slight differences in jump, speed, etc. I like characters that are overall different. With Star Fox characters, each one has a reflector, a blaster, a side dash attack, and a fire based launch recovery. I'd much prefer they mix it up more than that in a limited roster, even though there are technical differences such as Wolf going at an angle for their side special. The same goes for all of the clones, semiclones, and pseudoclones (based off of Smash wiki: Chrom/Roy/Marth/Lucina, Daisy/Peach, Pit/Dark Pit, Samus/Dark Samus, Simon/Richter, Mario/Dr. Mario, Pikachu/Pichu, Toon Link/Link/Young Link, Ness/Lucas, Falco/Fox/Wolf, Ryu/Ken, Isabelle/Villager, Captain Falcon/Ganondorf). The worst offender is Ganondorf, particularly since they're not even a part of the same series as the character they're based on. The only exception is echo fighters--I'm fine if characters like Peach and Daisy share moves, so long as they're in a specific category.

Of course, the issue is, and why we have so many clones/semi-clones to begin with, is they take less time to make, and so it's a way of adding more characters than there would be otherwise, and semi-clones are more preferred by fans than full clones. Which is why I'm fine with echo fighters--it's just Ultimate has been inconsistent in the definition (some echoes are identical, while others have major differences from the character they're based on). I'd just expand that category to include all clones/semi-clones, and have one per character. It makes the roster aesthetically better to me, and a more limited roster is an opportunity to pick out the most unique characters from each franchise.

I'm not sure how I'd change the Star Fox characters, personally--I'm not as familiar with the series, so I don't know what moves/weapons/etc from the home series could be used for the characters. But Krystal, based on what we see in Ultimate, is far more unique and has a lot more potential to differentiate herself from Fox, than Falco and Wolf have, and in a rebooted Smash, I'd prefer if they do include Falco and/or Wolf, to make them as unique as Krystal would be.

Edit: Edited to change the Pit/Palutena contrast with Bowser/Bowser Jr. Despite similar origins, I can't think of any similarities in their moves.

Do you have a link to where Sakurai actually said it would be 30ish characters or that it might be that few in the future? Because I never heard about that.

I accept the financial and legal reality that there will certainly be far fewer characters next time around most likely, but to your point about fewer characters with little distinctions in terms of content and gameplay, I find it extremely hard to believe that any game going down to 30 from almost 90 characters would sell especially well no matter what pizzazz the smash team decides to give the series to keep things fresh going forward. I still think somewhere between brawl and wii u's roster size is pretty doable, especially if you just make as many of the clones/echoes as alts for their corresponding characters as possible.

And about character differentiation...I definitely support making them as unique and true to their series as they can be, and I myself am not particularly familiar with the Star Fox franchise as a whole. I guess that fox/falco/wolf just don't strike me as being that much in need of a complete design overhaul, particularly when there are other characters like kirby, sonic and ganondorf that need that treatment so much more (just my opinion though, of course).

Plus, focusing too much on making characters totally diverse from one another risks things being very unbalanced in terms of movesets as well as sacrificing effort and careful attention elsewhere; like the 1-player modes and other engine/game design elements that I'd personally like to see adjusted and reinvested in for next time (who knows though, I'm probably going to be in my mid to late 30's by the time smash 6 releases and may not have as much interest in the series anymore).

And btw, I'm pretty certain that echo fighter eligibility is dependent on how closely a character resembles the physical proportions of the original character they're being made an echo of. I'm not 100% sure on that, but that's what I've heard about it in the past at least.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Do you have a link to where Sakurai actually said it would be 30ish characters or that it might be that few in the future? Because I never heard about that.

I accept the financial and legal reality that there will certainly be far fewer characters next time around most likely, but to your point about fewer characters with little distinctions in terms of content and gameplay, I find it extremely hard to believe that any game going down to 30 from almost 90 characters would sell especially well no matter what pizzazz the smash team decides to give the series to keep things fresh going forward. I still think somewhere between brawl and wii u's roster size is pretty doable, especially if you just make as many of the clones/echoes as alts for their corresponding characters as possible.

And about character differentiation...I definitely support making them as unique and true to their series as they can be, and I myself am not particularly familiar with the Star Fox franchise as a whole. I guess that fox/falco/wolf just don't strike me as being that much in need of a complete design overhaul, particularly when there are other characters like kirby, sonic and ganondorf that need that treatment so much more (just my opinion though, of course).

Plus, focusing too much on making characters totally diverse from one another risks things being very unbalanced in terms of movesets as well as sacrificing effort and careful attention elsewhere; like the 1-player modes and other engine/game design elements that I'd personally like to see adjusted and reinvested in for next time (who knows though, I'm probably going to be in my mid to late 30's by the time smash 6 releases and may not have as much interest in the series anymore).

And btw, I'm pretty certain that echo fighter eligibility is dependent on how closely a character resembles the physical proportions of the original character they're being made an echo of. I'm not 100% sure on that, but that's what I've heard about it in the past at least.

I based that off of this article:

We had a choice between completely overhauling the game systems and feel, or working off of what we had established in the last game. We ended up going with the latter. If we went with the former, we might have ended up with only a third of the fighters we have now.

He explained that people might have complained that it wasn't the same game they were used to, and decided to strike while they could to get every character back, and that the idea of completely changing up the game is something they'd leave to another time. While a third of the base roster would be around 25 characters, I rounded up to be generous. It's likely that if a successor happens, they will likely go with what they originally had considered--completely starting from scratch, which would mean a drastically reduced roster. Personally, if that's the route they go, I'd prefer one character per series, and trying to get as many characters from third parties as possible (or, at the very least, one returning character from each company). Since there's 36-40 series by the end of Vol 2, it's manageable, but difficult, particularly series with important characters outside of the main one. Then ideally they would have returning veterans from series already in to come in packs (e.g., Villains Pack, with Bowser, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Ridley, King K Rool). But none of that is as ideal as continuing with Ultimate and trying to get as many characters back as possible. And it's only a hypothetical that we don't have to worry about for a while, as we'll continue getting new content for at least another year or so.

As for changing up characters--I don't necessarily need a drastic overhaul to be satisfied. Since I'm not familiar with the series, I'll make up an example that may not be canon, but we could change Falco's recovery to something like Charizard's as if they're flying, change their Falco Phantasm to a spinning move with their arms outstretched. Similar effects, but without the copy/paste feel of them. And to reiterate, I'm certain these are not canon moves, and wouldn't work for the character--I only use it as an example of how you can take a samey-feeling move and iterate on them to make them feel more different. And I'm aware of how echo fighters are defined, given Sakurai's Sept article on that, but that's why I mentioned I'd like the definition of echo to be expanded--not just based on proportions and size, but also how related to another character a character is, based on the clone statuses I mentioned (though Ganondorf should obviously not echo Captain Falcon, they should change his moves completely to make him different). My personal rule that I'm satisfied with is if a character is from the same series and shares more than a couple of moves (regardless if they technically have different properties), they should be echos of each other--if that's inconvenient, their character should be reworked to make them more unique.

The reason I brought this up (as an aside as to why I think Krystal should be in, sorry for the long explanations of my reasoning) is when I do try to make rosters with 30-50 characters, it gets really difficult. There are plenty of redundant characters and clones, but even removing the obvious ones, there's so many left. And while I try to give Nintendo's biggest franchises a hero, sidekick, heroine, villain at the very least, Star Fox always felt like the outlier, as it was really hard for me to justify what makes each character "unique" enough to include at the expense of other, more unique characters.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I based that off of this article:



He explained that people might have complained that it wasn't the same game they were used to, and decided to strike while they could to get every character back, and that the idea of completely changing up the game is something they'd leave to another time. While a third of the base roster would be around 25 characters, I rounded up to be generous. It's likely that if a successor happens, they will likely go with what they originally had considered--completely starting from scratch, which would mean a drastically reduced roster. Personally, if that's the route they go, I'd prefer one character per series, and trying to get as many characters from third parties as possible (or, at the very least, one returning character from each company). Since there's 36-40 series by the end of Vol 2, it's manageable, but difficult, particularly series with important characters outside of the main one. Then ideally they would have returning veterans from series already in to come in packs (e.g., Villains Pack, with Bowser, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Ridley, King K Rool). But none of that is as ideal as continuing with Ultimate and trying to get as many characters back as possible. And it's only a hypothetical that we don't have to worry about for a while, as we'll continue getting new content for at least another year or so.

As for changing up characters--I don't necessarily need a drastic overhaul to be satisfied. Since I'm not familiar with the series, I'll make up an example that may not be canon, but we could change Falco's recovery to something like Charizard's as if they're flying, change their Falco Phantasm to a spinning move with their arms outstretched. Similar effects, but without the copy/paste feel of them. And to reiterate, I'm certain these are not canon moves, and wouldn't work for the character--I only use it as an example of how you can take a samey-feeling move and iterate on them to make them feel more different. And I'm aware of how echo fighters are defined, given Sakurai's Sept article on that, but that's why I mentioned I'd like the definition of echo to be expanded--not just based on proportions and size, but also how related to another character a character is, based on the clone statuses I mentioned (though Ganondorf should obviously not echo Captain Falcon, they should change his moves completely to make him different). My personal rule that I'm satisfied with is if a character is from the same series and shares more than a couple of moves (regardless if they technically have different properties), they should be echos of each other--if that's inconvenient, their character should be reworked to make them more unique.

The reason I brought this up (as an aside as to why I think Krystal should be in, sorry for the long explanations of my reasoning) is when I do try to make rosters with 30-50 characters, it gets really difficult. There are plenty of redundant characters and clones, but even removing the obvious ones, there's so many left. And while I try to give Nintendo's biggest franchises a hero, sidekick, heroine, villain at the very least, Star Fox always felt like the outlier, as it was really hard for me to justify what makes each character "unique" enough to include at the expense of other, more unique characters.

If I had to choose between the majority of Nintendo veterans in the roster and the 3rd party veterans I would prefer for most of the Nintendo veterans to stay and almost all the 3rd party characters to go except for Banjo & Kazooie and maybe Sonic. Smash Bros. is still a Nintendo game and if we are to have a roster in the future that literally cuts half of the veterans out I think literally almost all the 3rd party characters have to go. Not that I have nothing against them, but Smash is at first value about the Nintendo characters before outside parties.

While yes, I believe no future Smash will ever out do or out sell Ultimate, the future Smashes could still be quite successful and I just think it's a better idea to get rid of 3rd parties in general if we are going by the Thanos snap method. Honestly, I don't want anyone to be cut but there will be some sacrifices in the future.

 

[DougEfresh]

CosmicQuark thanks for the link. It's hard to say what will happen, but like you said, it's not something we have to concern ourselves with for quite a while. No matter how much the roster is cut by, maybe they'll focus on making certain characters more unique (hopefully) along with improvements elsewhere in the game.

If I had to choose between the majority of Nintendo veterans in the roster and the 3rd party veterans I would prefer for most of the Nintendo veterans to stay and almost all the 3rd party characters to go except for Banjo & Kazooie and maybe Sonic. Smash Bros. is still a Nintendo game and if we are to have a roster in the future that literally cuts half of the veterans out I think literally almost all the 3rd party characters have to go. Not that I have nothing against them, but Smash is at first value about the Nintendo characters before outside parties.

While yes, I believe no future Smash will ever out do or out sell Ultimate, the future Smashes could still be quite successful and I just think it's a better idea to get rid of 3rd parties in general if we are going by the Thanos snap method. Honestly, I don't want anyone to be cut but there will be some sacrifices in the future.

Yea I think most third parties will definitely be on the chopping block, but there are a few core ones like and of course that would likely stay. Obviously we're all biased on this last one, but as long as Microsoft and Nintendo continue with their friendly relationship going forward, I think they have a good shot of returning as veterans and people would be livid about them being cut in the next game after taking so long to get added to Ultimate, even if only because they'll no longer have the duo to hate on and be salty about.

I also think for Nintendo characters, they should largely be from more recent and/or firmly established franchises. Characters from older, more dormant series would be more likely to get cut with the exception of huge fan favorites in the smash community like and . I wonder if O12 immunity from cuts will also remain in place for the next one (especially if a new director takes the helm); if not, then I also don't know that or 's chances are looking that good.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

CosmicQuark thanks for the link. It's hard to say what will happen, but like you said, it's not something we have to concern ourselves with for quite a while. No matter how much the roster is cut by, maybe they'll focus on making certain characters more unique (hopefully) along with improvements elsewhere in the game.



Yea I think most third parties will definitely be on the chopping block, but there are a few core ones like and of course that would likely stay. Obviously we're all biased on this last one, but as long as Microsoft and Nintendo continue with their friendly relationship going forward, I think they have a good shot of returning as veterans and people would be livid about them being cut in the next game after taking so long to get added to Ultimate, even if only because they'll no longer have the duo to hate on and be salty about.

I also think for Nintendo characters, they should largely be from more recent and/or firmly established franchises. Characters from older, more dormant series would be more likely to get cut with the exception of huge fan favorites in the smash community like and . I wonder if O12 immunity from cuts will also remain in place for the next one (especially if a new director takes the helm); if not, then I also don't know that or 's chances are looking that good.

I think and should stay as we fought too many years to get them in. especially should stay as it would be stupid to remove him after Nintendo and Sakurai finding out about his popularity and reviving the character after MIA for a decade.

 

[DougEfresh]

R RetrogamerMax totally agree, I guess they would fall under my exception of "big smash fan favorites", especially K Rool. Another way to go about reducing the roster size is just to have main protagonist and villain/rival/anti-hero/antagonist pairings for Nintendo series except for Mario Bros and Zelda franchises (Pokémon is obviously a different beast being an RPG). Side kicks are nice and all, but I think we should still have more bad guys in smash tbh.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

R RetrogamerMax totally agree, I guess they would fall under my exception of "big smash fan favorites", especially K Rool. Another way to go about reducing the roster size is just to have main protagonist and villain/rival/anti-hero/antagonist pairings for Nintendo series except for Mario Bros and Zelda franchises (Pokémon is obviously a different beast being an RPG). Side kicks are nice and all, but I think we should still have more bad guys in smash tbh.

The bigger franchises like Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon I believe should have up to 5 or 6 fighters in a reboot while other franchises should only have one, two, or three fighters so each franchise doesn't take up too much space in the roster in future games.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

I got my dream character, Banjo & Kazooie, so I'm satisified, regardless of how the rest of the roster comes out. Though, my number 1 pick now is Crash. Much like how I wanted Banjo & Kazooie to complete the Nintendo character line-up for me, I'd like Crash as Mario/Sonic/Crash are the iconic trilogy of the 90s, and I'd like to see that complete. Plus he'd be a great character, and iconic enough to warrant their inclusion.

Banjo-Kazooie was also my dream pick.

And what you mentioned is pretty much why I also want Crash Bandicoot in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.

Many would want and pay to see this dream matchup finally happen.

I grew up gaming during the N64 era and Nintendo consoles overall, But outside of my "Nintendo Bubble" The only franchises that I have always had "Some" nostalgia from the late 90's was Crash Bandicoot (And to a lesser extent Spyro) As I had some exposure to them from playing them at friends houses and such, But I always thought they were cool and liked them because my favorite genre is both 2D/3D platformers and I love cartoony platforming mascots such as Mario, Donkey Kong and Banjo-Kazooie as they are my favorite video game character archetype so Crash Bandicoot was absolutely right in my wheelhouse.

It's been said countless times before, That Crash Bandicoot has a place in gaming history and was the former defacto mascot of Sony's Playstation brand and one of the last big remaining 3rd Party characters to have yet to make it in the game that will fit just right in with remaining of the cast.

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

If I had to be honest I don't really have much gas left in the tank or a drive to push and rally for other Rare characters.

It's not that I don't want them in, It's just that King K. Rool and Banjo-Kazooie took a lot of years and a lot out of me and they always gave me that gut feeling that eventually they were going to make it in because of their insanely high demand, push and to a certain extent importance.

I just don't see that with the other characters, Sure I hang out sometimes on the Dixie Kong thread and while I am pulling for her, DK, Diddy and hell even Chunky Kong were always my favorite kongs and I usually just hang there to talk about more about Donkey Kong franchise as a whole rather than Dixie.

I get where you are coming from and can relate.

Pushed hard like so many for K.Rool and that was the main reason I made a Smashboards account.

To 1. Advocate for the krazy kroc in Smash and 2. talk about DKC/Rare.

Then once he was in, my main want, focus shifted to Banjo and Kazooie. Great to join and have a community of people passionate about the franchise.

Personally, I'm suffering a bit from Smash speculation fatigue so that's affected engagement in regards to jumping in for taking another swing for other characters. Characters like Crash, Dixie, Scorpion, Rayman, an Advance/Famicom Wars rep, Bomberman(I know, still a bit of annoyance there) are among others who I'd love to see in.

Metaphorically K.Rool for me was the scaly, green coloured cake, Banjo and Kazooie were a sizable amount of honeycomb flavoured icing and any one else on that list will be cherries.

Bear and bird literally came from Cloud Cuckooland and were a pleasant suprise, a great addition to some wanted newcomers of mine like Simon and Richter, Inklings, Ken and later on Terry. But the ones who have made it over the years, a higher tier of want if you will, have overall left me very satisfied with Smash. Others including Mega Man, Bowser Jr, Snake, Wario, Diddy Kong were longtime wants for me going back as far as SSB/Melee. So that all leaves me pretty content.

But having to deal with the dregs of Smash newcomer/DLC speculation on SB all over again turns me off. Wading through the neuroticism from people who continually move the goalposts to support their made up, arbitrary measures and drive their misguided narratives, makes me think twice. Plus treating their opinions as undeniable facts, that rubbish gets very tiring quickly. I guess that's fandoms and the Internet for you!

Can be hard to have mature discussions and I have better things to do then engage with some of the seemingly popular and well "respected" children on SB. Posters talk about how places like GameFAQs and ResetEra are toxic and that SB is the promised land, but this place can get just as bad with the smarmyness, favouritism and hyperbolic binjuice arguments. That's why it's great to stay within the specific character discussions I guess.

Anyway, we won, they are in and that is pretty much all that matters. People can squawk like a winged duck about them and throw shade as much as they like, but they're in and it can't be changed!

History remembers the winners, to the victor go the spoils, winners are grinners, losers can please themselves and all that stuff.

Let's hope that bear and bird will continue to be featured in the mainstream and in future, the series as a whole can benefit from their inclusion in Smash.

Cheers!

 

[CosmicQuark]

Banjo-Kazooie was also my dream pick.

And what you mentioned is pretty much why I also want Crash Bandicoot in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.

Many would want and pay to see this dream matchup finally happen.

View attachment 272817

I grew up gaming during the N64 era and Nintendo consoles overall, But outside of my "Nintendo Bubble" The only franchises that I have always had "Some" nostalgia from the late 90's was Crash Bandicoot (And to a lesser extent Spyro) As I had some exposure to them from playing them at friends houses and such, But I always thought they were cool and liked them because my favorite genre is both 2D/3D platformers and I love cartoony platforming mascots such as Mario, Donkey Kong and Banjo-Kazooie as they are my favorite video game character archetype so Crash Bandicoot was absolutely right in my wheelhouse.

It's been said countless times before, That Crash Bandicoot has a place in gaming history and was the former defacto mascot of Sony's Playstation brand and one of the last big remaining 3rd Party characters to have yet to make it in the game that will fit just right in with remaining of the cast.

A game containing Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Banjo & Kazooie, Crash, Cloud, Snake, Joker--it's already bizarre with the characters that are in, adding Crash is just the icing on the cake. People no longer associate Crash with Sony much any more, and appeal to characters like Cloud and Joker as de facto "Sony reps." But Crash was *the* mascot in the 90s, and having all of those mascot characters in would be amazing. While there are company mascots I can think of that aren't in (Rayman for Ubisoft), with Terry representing the Neo Geo, a console I forgot existed, I wonder if there'd be any console mascots left.

 

[TheZoologist]

Banjo-Kazooie was also my dream pick.

And what you mentioned is pretty much why I also want Crash Bandicoot in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.

Many would want and pay to see this dream matchup finally happen.

View attachment 272817

I grew up gaming during the N64 era and Nintendo consoles overall, But outside of my "Nintendo Bubble" The only franchises that I have always had "Some" nostalgia from the late 90's was Crash Bandicoot (And to a lesser extent Spyro) As I had some exposure to them from playing them at friends houses and such, But I always thought they were cool and liked them because my favorite genre is both 2D/3D platformers and I love cartoony platforming mascots such as Mario, Donkey Kong and Banjo-Kazooie as they are my favorite video game character archetype so Crash Bandicoot was absolutely right in my wheelhouse.

It's been said countless times before, That Crash Bandicoot has a place in gaming history and was the former defacto mascot of Sony's Playstation brand and one of the last big remaining 3rd Party characters to have yet to make it in the game that will fit just right in with remaining of the cast.

I will honestly be VERY surprised if Crash Bandicoot isn't one of the fighters in the second Fighter Pass. Especially given your reasons here. Before Banjo & Kazooie got in, I was very much against his inclusion, haven't having grown up with the character and his games, they brought me no nostalgia. And Crash getting in before Banjo & Kazooie when up until recently he had no strong connection with Nintendo consoles, I thought it would be just another nail in the coffin towards Banjo-Kazooie's history with Nintendo. Now, however? I'm ALL for him getting in. The more classic cartoony mascot platformers in Smash, the better. Honestly, my biggest dream is to have a Smash roster that has the likes of Mario, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, Earthworm Jim (a long shot, I know, but I can dream!) and Banjo & Kazooie in battle at the same time! That would be a truly ultimate roster.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Clive 'N Wrench is truly on its way to coming out safely now!

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...r_wrench_is_getting_a_physical_switch_release

 

[CosmicQuark]

I will honestly be VERY surprised if Crash Bandicoot isn't one of the fighters in the second Fighter Pass. Especially given your reasons here. Before Banjo & Kazooie got in, I was very much against his inclusion, haven't having grown up with the character and his games, they brought me no nostalgia. And Crash getting in before Banjo & Kazooie when up until recently he had no strong connection with Nintendo consoles, I thought it would be just another nail in the coffin towards Banjo-Kazooie's history with Nintendo. Now, however? I'm ALL for him getting in. The more classic cartoony mascot platformers in Smash, the better. Honestly, my biggest dream is to have a Smash roster that has the likes of Mario, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, Earthworm Jim (a long shot, I know, but I can dream!) and Banjo & Kazooie in battle at the same time! That would be a truly ultimate roster.

I'd love it if Crash is in, though I wouldn't be surprised if Crash is not in yet--working with Western developers is logistically difficult, as Sakurai has mentioned that's why Banjo-Kazooie content wasn't in Smash even when Nintendo and Rare were partners, and he even mentioned it again in the Banjo & Kazooie Presentation when he talked about working with a Western composer for the first time, initially concerned whether his directions would be understood across the world, but Grant nonetheless did a wonderful job. It seems like Nintendo, and by extension Sakurai, are dipping their toes in more with working with Western developers to an extent we haven't seen before, but it may be a while until we see more of that. Still, I'm hoping Crash is in, and while I'm completely satisfied since we got Banjo & Kazooie, completing the Mario/Sonic/Crash trilogy would be the icing on the 90s nostalgia cake.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

And btw, I'm pretty certain that echo fighter eligibility is dependent on how closely a character resembles the physical proportions of the original character they're being made an echo of. I'm not 100% sure on that, but that's what I've heard about it in the past at least.

From what I've heard others say, it actually has more to do with the skeleton being a similar size whether than the body portion being similar in shape. Why that is? I couldn't tell you because I'm no expert in that field.

While there are company mascots I can think of that aren't in (Rayman for Ubisoft), with Terry representing the Neo Geo, a console I forgot existed, I wonder if there'd be any console mascots left.

There is actually quite a few notable console/company mascots not yet in Smash:

Master Chief/Xbox
Bonk/TurboGrafx-16
Bomberman/formerly Hudson Soft RIP

But yeah, there is probably more major mascots I can't think of off the top of my head. While Crash is a Activision character now I'm not sure I would call him their mascot since Call of Duty is certainly their flagship franchise. There really never was a real PlayStation mascot, but Crash was the closest to being the PlayStation mascot back in the day out of all the major related PlayStation characters.

I will honestly be VERY surprised if Crash Bandicoot isn't one of the fighters in the second Fighter Pass. Especially given your reasons here. Before Banjo & Kazooie got in, I was very much against his inclusion, haven't having grown up with the character and his games, they brought me no nostalgia. And Crash getting in before Banjo & Kazooie when up until recently he had no strong connection with Nintendo consoles, I thought it would be just another nail in the coffin towards Banjo-Kazooie's history with Nintendo. Now, however? I'm ALL for him getting in. The more classic cartoony mascot platformers in Smash, the better. Honestly, my biggest dream is to have a Smash roster that has the likes of Mario, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, Earthworm Jim (a long shot, I know, but I can dream!) and Banjo & Kazooie in battle at the same time! That would be a truly ultimate roster.

Don't forget about Spyro. 90s platforming bois should all stick together.

 

[dlewis53]

Don't forget about Spyro. 90s platforming bois should all stick together.

THANK YOU! Honestly speaking, while Crash wouldn't necessarily be a bad choice, if both getting in isn't in the cards, than I would much prefer Spyro.

 

[DougEfresh]

R RetrogamerMax I couldn't remember exactly what it was, just remembered it having something to do with physical similarities between characters of some kind to make an echo from another.

Spyro in smash would be really sick, and frankly his series is the one I'm more nostalgic about compared to Crash (certainly not opposed to him though). Unfortunately, Spyro bombed in Japan and is an incredibly unpopular character over there from what I know. Never say never though, I suppose.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Spyro the Dragon would be a great addition to Smash as he and Crash Bandicoot were the "1-2 Punch" platforming mascots for the PS1 era.

That being said many (Including myself) unfortunately have accepted and don't see him getting in over Crash, There is the unlikely scenario where both make it in Season 2 as an "Ultimatum Deal" from Activision where it's either both or nothing, But I doubt that will happen.

 

[CosmicQuark]

From what I've heard others say, it actually has more to do with the skeleton being a similar size whether than the body portion being similar in shape. Why that is? I couldn't tell you because I'm no expert in that field.

I'm not a expert myself, so imho with a lot of emphasis on the h, I think it's an arbitrary distinction. I see no reason why clones and semi-clones are not considered echoes, as I think they should, as all it does is artificially inflate the number of "unique" characters. Yes, they're *technically* different, but from a big picture view, I don't think it's a meaningful distinction. And I would have accepted characters like Isabelle and Dr. Mario more if they were just called echoes and shared a slot with the character they're based on. Only exception of "any clone should equal echoes" is Ganon, because there's no reason he should still be so heavily based on Captain Falcon 4 games in. I like my echo rule of "if a character from the same series shares more than a couple moves, they're an echo, regardless of proportions, stats, etc." Much simpler, and less room to debate minute details.

Edit:

Spyro the Dragon would be a great addition to Smash as he and Crash Bandicoot were the "1-2 Punch" platforming mascots for the PS1 era.

That being said many (Including myself) unfortunately have accepted and don't see him getting in over Crash, There is the unlikely scenario where both make it in Season 2 as an "Ultimatum Deal" from Activision where it's either both or nothing, But I doubt that will happen.

I'd love it if Crash and Spyro came together, even if that meant 2 out of the 6 final characters were from the same company, because they both come together as a package and each would bring something unique to the game. Though, given Activision isn't likely the best company to work with, I have my doubts we'd get an ultimate deal with them, and if I were to choose one, I'd choose Crash. But they both shared that mascot status, though I played Crash more.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Spyro the Dragon would be a great addition to Smash as he and Crash Bandicoot were the "1-2 Punch" platforming mascots for the PS1 era.

That being said many (Including myself) unfortunately have accepted and don't see him getting in over Crash, There is the unlikely scenario where both make it in Season 2 as an "Ultimatum Deal" from Activision where it's either both or nothing, But I doubt that will happen.

It's very unlikely like you said, but I hope the "Ultimatum Deal" happens and we get both Crash and Spyro. Both characters I believe highly deserve to be in Smash with both literally being the faces of the PS1 along with Cloud and Snake who are already in. I think the platforming bois should join their PlayStation brothers in Smash.