Banjo-Kazooie - Project Dream

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Add Rayman, Sora and Spyro, and I have everyone I ever desperately wanted
For me it would be Goemon, Banjo & Kazooie, Krystal, Dixie Kong, Porky, and Pig Ganon. If by some miracle I ever get all these characters in Smash, I will never have the desire for any other characters to get in Smash ever again.
 
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I still find IndieGamerChick's tweets about Rare really questionable. Just a reminder



Did Sea of Thieves really fail to recoup its cost? Everything about it has sounded like a success for Rare and Microsoft.
yeah the stuff about Miyamoto also sounds like it could be misinfo.
 
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I still find IndieGamerChick's tweets about Rare really questionable. Just a reminder



Did Sea of Thieves really fail to recoup its cost? Everything about it has sounded like a success for Rare and Microsoft.
Ehhh

Just because something sells well, it doesn't mean it will recoup its cost. Shenmue sold pretty well, for example. Between 1.5 and 2 million copies. Although SEGA spent so much money on it, it was a massive money pit.

And considering Microsoft paid 375 million for Rare, they have definitely not recouped the costs they spent on them either.
 
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It happens in movies all the time. A 20 million dollar movie can make 21 million dollars and still be considered a flop. Because you have to take into consideration distribution costs, advertisement costs, printing costs, deals with companies to sell your movie. There is a whole bunch of extra costs you have to take into consideration that isn't just what it costed to make the movie/game.
 
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fleshdude.gov

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It happens in movies all the time. A 20 million dollar movie can make 21 million dollars and still be considered a flop. Because you have to take into consideration distribution costs, advertisement costs, printing costs, deals with companies to sell your movie. There is a whole bunch of extra costs you have to take into consideration that isn't just what it costed to make the movie/game.
Not to mention stuff like the additional upkeep costs for servers that come with video games with online multiplayer that add up over time or continued development support, making the game less profitable over time.
 

MrMcNuts

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Rayman pretty much doesn't exist in Japan, so I can see why Sakurai wouldn't really want to make him a playable character, even if Ubisoft asked.

The above are all the Rayman games released in Japan and they all sold...yeah.
If he said no to Rayman just cause of that then that'd be pretty stupid of him. He put in in Roy and Lucas even though we didn't know them and still learned to love em. Sure they're Nintendo owned and Japanese characters but still, that'd be some rude bias of him
 

culumon

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Even being unambiguously profitable sometimes isn't enough for a product to be seen as an out-and-out success. Age of Ultron grossed $1.4 billion against a $365 million budget, making just about $100 million less than its predecessor and becoming the then-fifth highest grossing movie of all time, and that doesn't even begin to cover the insane amount of merchandise sales it must've brought in, and it was still considered a financial disappointment by Disney.

Corporate expectations are utterly insane.
 
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Not to mention stuff like the additional upkeep costs for servers that come with video games with online multiplayer that add up over time or continued development support, making the game less profitable over time.
How much money did they get from people outright buying the game is the question. Because they might be inflating numbers from Game Pass subscriptions, Since they used Sea of Thieves as a poster child of it for awhile. And they constantly have promotions for "Get Game Pass for 3 months for $1!" so even the amount of money they are making from subscriptions can be quite low. And all of it wouldn't be going towards Sea of Thieves directly. SoT didn't have a great launch and was quickly forgotten by many. I bet most people who played it only did so because of Game Pass. It is quite understandable from the outside looking in that the game might not be doing as well as they so claim.
 
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If he said no to Rayman just cause of that then that'd be pretty stupid of him. He put in in Roy and Lucas even though we didn't know them and still learned to love em. Sure they're Nintendo owned and Japanese characters but still, that'd be some rude bias of him
The thing most people overlook is that Marth, Roy and Lucas are really more happy accidents than anything.

Keep in mind, the last time we got a JP only character in Smash was Lucas in Brawl...and it turns out that only happened because Sakurai was unaware that Mother 3 wasn't going to be localized.


It's also been well documented that Marth and Roy were originally planned to be scrapped from all non-JP versions of Melee because of their obscurity in the west. Of course they backed out on that at the last second.

So really those characters just got extremely lucky. But I don't think it's a "mistake" that Sakurai is willing to do again. There's a reason characters like Takamaru and Sukapon have been made assist trophies instead of playable.
 

MrMcNuts

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The thing most people overlook is that Marth, Roy and Lucas are really more happy accidents than anything.

Keep in mind, the last time we got a JP only character in Smash was Lucas in Brawl...and it turns out that only happened because Sakurai was unaware that Mother 3 wasn't going to be localized.


It's also been well documented that Marth and Roy were originally planned to be scrapped from all non-JP versions of Melee because of their obscurity in the west. Of course they backed out on that at the last second.

So really those characters just got extremely lucky. But I don't think it's a "mistake" that Sakurai is willing to do again. There's a reason characters like Takamaru and Sukapon have been made assist trophies instead of playable.
Despite that it'd be pretty weird for Ubisoft to not get a rep and Rayman is practically the front runner for that considering he's the only one requested and he's already had some content in smash, but we'll have to see
 
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Idunno... Miyamoto disliking Rare has been a thing that's been going around for years.. based on the current state of the DK series and the absolute disuse of Krystal in the Star Fox series I'd say it has grounds to be true.. K. Rool up and vanishing until now really makes it seem there was a general dislike towards Rares direction and design. I love Miyamoto and his work but let's not pretend the man can't be biased against something
 

MrMcNuts

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Idunno... Miyamoto disliking Rare has been a thing that's been going around for years.. based on the current state of the DK series and the absolute disuse of Krystal in the Star Fox series I'd say it has grounds to be true.. K. Rool up and vanishing until now really makes it seem there was a general dislike towards Rares direction and design. I love Miyamoto and his work but let's not pretend the man can't be biased against something
I think him disliking rare is just a rumor though. The guy has lost his touch over the years though I'd say, don't even get me started on star fox zero. Oof
 
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Idunno... Miyamoto disliking Rare has been a thing that's been going around for years.. based on the current state of the DK series and the absolute disuse of Krystal in the Star Fox series I'd say it has grounds to be true.. K. Rool up and vanishing until now really makes it seem there was a general dislike towards Rares direction and design. I love Miyamoto and his work but let's not pretend the man can't be biased against something
Krytal wasn't disused. She's been in most Star Fox games since she appeared in Adventures. She wasn't in Zero because it was from before she entered chronologically. Really there is actually nothing suggesting Miyamoto disliked Rare. What inspired the story was him not wanting to use Rare's style for a Mario game and him fighting back with Yoshi's Island. That wasn't a dislike of Rare that was a dislike of executive interference.
 
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I think him disliking rare is just a rumor though. The guy has lost his touch over the years though I'd say, don't even get me started on star fox zero. Oof
Ehhhh I'm starting to think it has more truth than we think... I've heard it so much over the years and when you look at the lack of Rare era characters in DK games following the buyout plus over on the K. Rool boards the guys at DK Vine had a source who told them why K. Rool had been abscent all these years, due to "factonal disagreements" mostly from NoJ apparently. I think it has grounds to be real
 
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I think it's pretty clear that Miyamoto and EAD/EPD don't really care for using other people's characters very much.

I wouldn't say they downright hate the characters they own but didn't create, but they definitely seem to prefer just using their own stuff instead of other people's works. That's what led us to stuff like Jungle Beat purging all non-Rare elements except for the modern DK design and "the banana", as well as Waluigi not appearing in mainline Mario platformers.
 
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I think it's pretty clear that Miyamoto and EAD/EPD don't really care for using other people's characters very much.

I wouldn't say they downright hate the characters they own but didn't create, but they definitely seem to prefer just using their own stuff instead of other people's works. That's what led us to stuff like Jungle Beat purging all non-Rare elements except for the modern DK design and "the banana", as well as Waluigi not appearing in mainline Mario platformers.
Mario is a weird case because they would rather use toads then actual characters any chance they get.
 

MonkeyDLenny

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I still find IndieGamerChick's tweets about Rare really questionable. Just a reminder



Did Sea of Thieves really fail to recoup its cost? Everything about it has sounded like a success for Rare and Microsoft.
Let me put it this way: Do you really see anyone caring about Sea of Thieves anymore? The announcement of the multiplayer arenas at the last Inside Xbox was met with very muted responses.

It suffered the same problem as No Man's Sky: It launched with absolutely nothing to do and bare bones. Sure, nowadays there is plenty to do, same as No Man's Sky, but just like NMS nobody cares anymore

You only get that one first impression to hook people, and SoT blew it.
 
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Also, didn’t Miyamoto or someone at Nintendo give Rare a special tree after the Microsoft buyout that they planted at their headquarters, as a parting gift/thank you/well-wishes on-your-future-endeavors type of present? It’s documented, you can look it up. I doubt he’d do that for a company that he supposedly didn’t care for
 
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SKX31

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Despite that it'd be pretty weird for Ubisoft to not get a rep and Rayman is practically the front runner for that considering he's the only one requested and he's already had some content in smash, but we'll have to see
Could be anything, really. I wouldn't put it to malice when it could be lack of development time, Sakurai personally not sure how Rayman would work, whatever. The truth can be more mundane than one thinks.

I think it's pretty clear that Miyamoto and EAD/EPD don't really care for using other people's characters very much.

I wouldn't say they downright hate the characters they own but didn't create, but they definitely seem to prefer just using their own stuff instead of other people's works. That's what led us to stuff like Jungle Beat purging all non-Rare elements except for the modern DK design and "the banana", as well as Waluigi not appearing in mainline Mario platformers.
Mario is a weird case because they would rather use toads then actual characters any chance they get.
I'm going to qoute from No String PD's "What Happened to F-Zero" video (vid's been timestamped to at 11:35, where the youtuber brings up the relevant section):


The piece I'm going to qoute is a bit later on, at 13:10 (bolding mine. I chose to go with the earlier time stamp since Miyamoto and Bill Trinen gets to a core of his thinking there):

"This kind of thinking is both Miyamoto's creative strength and weakness. Every game has to bring something new, something unique, a fresh perspective and a new way to play."

From his perspective - why go with something like Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door 2 when you can do something new with the Paper Mario franchise? Why push Star Fox into uncharted territory storywise (something that killed Command, mind), when you can bring back Star Fox 64 with a new way to play? Why bring back F-Zero if you don't have the new way to bring it back control wise?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a part of why Miyamoto leaned against using K. Rool again, at least until they learned of his popularity via SSBU. Remember, Jungle Beat's played with the Bongos. A new way to play. Miyamoto has had a ridicolously strong influence on Nintendo's culture, so it could be that simple.

I'm not agreeing with Miyamoto's vision - again, creative strength and weakness. It's something to keep in mind though.
 
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Let's hope that isn't a red herring
The only red herrings are those that the fans make themselves.

I still don't like how people mention Miyamoto first when talking about Paper Mario's current state. Sure he had a slight hand in some of the current problems but it's like 90% Intelligent Systems and 10% Miyamoto involvement that lead the series to where it is now.
I get the impression that IS took some suggestions from Miyamoto waaaaaaaaay too much to heart.

Isn't it the fault of the guy who currently oversees Paper Mario? I forget his name.
 
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Didn't rare create diddy, dixie, cranky, and funky kong? Nintendo seems to like them.
That's true only because they're more closely related to DK being of the same race. K. Rool is a Kremling and doesn't have any Nintendo blood in him because his blood is 100% percent Rare. He looks like a Rare character because he is a Rare character. He is a Nintendo owned Rare character that deserved better treatment throughout the years.

If you get what I'm saying, it's easier for Nintendo or Miyamoto to pretend that the Kong's were not made by Rare, but them even though Rare created everybody in the DKC cast except DK.
 
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Overall, game creators are more okay with using their own creations than those of others, usually out of respect or simply because they don't want to leave their comfort zone. As you can imagine, it creates big complications over time...

"Do not attribute to malice that which is also adequately explained by stupidity", as the saying goes.
 
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You have to consider that Retro Studios were the guys behind the new DKC games, not EAD/EPD itself.

The one time EAD themselves made a new DK game since the Rare era, none of Rare's characters were present...except for DK and the banana, because they weren't "fresh enough" in Koizumi's words.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2005/02/18/donkey-kong-jungle-beat-2

Koizumi: All the characters outside of Donkey Kong and the banana are completely original. We don't really feel the past look of Donkey Kong was fresh enough for today. We really gave our new development team the chance to really create something unique and stylish.
For the most part, during the post-Rare, pre-Retro era, Rare's DK characters were relegated to spinoffs outsourced to Paon and Namco.

The funny thing is, Mario Kart is pretty much the only EAD developed game that's somewhat more accepting of foreign characters, with the inclusions of Wario, Waluigi, Rare's DK, Diddy and even Funky somehow.
 
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That's true only because they're more closely related to DK being of the same race. K. Rool is a Kremling and doesn't have any Nintendo blood in him because his blood is 100% percent Rare. He looks like a Rare character because he is a Rare character. He is a Nintendo owned Rare character that deserved better treatment throughout the years.

If you get what I'm saying, it's easier for Nintendo or Miyamoto to pretend that the Kong's were not made by Rare, but them even though Rare created everybody in the DKC cast except DK.
Fair point. I just hope this doesn't interfere with b-k' s chances
 
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You have to consider that Retro Studios were the guys behind the new DKC games, not EAD/EPD itself.

The one time EAD themselves made a new DK game since the Rare era, none of Rare's characters were present...except for DK and the banana, because they weren't "fresh enough" in Koizumi's words.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2005/02/18/donkey-kong-jungle-beat-2



For the most part, during the post-Rare, pre-Retro era, Rare's DK characters were relegated to spinoffs outsourced to Paon and Namco.

The funny thing is, Mario Kart is pretty much the only EAD developed game that's somewhat more accepting of foreign characters, with the inclusions of Wario, Waluigi, Rare's DK, Diddy and even Funky somehow.
Mario Kart is...weird and inconsistent in regards to which characters can be chosen for a roster. Even Waluigi wasn't a guarantee, once.
 
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I still don't like how people mention Miyamoto first when talking about Paper Mario's current state. Sure he had a slight hand in some of the current problems but it's like 90% Intelligent Systems and 10% Miyamoto involvement that lead the series to where it is now.
Colour Splash was awesome and Sticker Star is no where near as bad as people make it out to be. Not a masterpiece like TTYD, but people act as if it's an unplayable mess. It's just a weak entry in a very very good series. That's all.

You have to consider that Retro Studios were the guys behind the new DKC games, not EAD/EPD itself.

The one time EAD themselves made a new DK game since the Rare era, none of Rare's characters were present...except for DK and the banana, because they weren't "fresh enough" in Koizumi's words.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2005/02/18/donkey-kong-jungle-beat-2



For the most part, during the post-Rare, pre-Retro era, Rare's DK characters were relegated to spinoffs outsourced to Paon and Namco.

The funny thing is, Mario Kart is pretty much the only EAD developed game that's somewhat more accepting of foreign characters, with the inclusions of Wario, Waluigi, Rare's DK, Diddy and even Funky somehow.
I miss Funky in Kart :(

That's true only because they're more closely related to DK being of the same race. K. Rool is a Kremling and doesn't have any Nintendo blood in him because his blood is 100% percent Rare. He looks like a Rare character because he is a Rare character. He is a Nintendo owned Rare character that deserved better treatment throughout the years.

If you get what I'm saying, it's easier for Nintendo or Miyamoto to pretend that the Kong's were not made by Rare, but them even though Rare created everybody in the DKC cast except DK.
They practically did create DK. He's a new character with a new design and new motives in DKC. The only thing that remains is his name.
 
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Colour Splash was awesome and Sticker Star is no where near as bad as people make it out to be. Not a masterpiece like TTYD, but people act as if it's an unplayable mess. It's just a weak entry in a very very good series. That's all.



I miss Funky in Kart :(
I just wish Super Paper Mario was appreciated more.
 
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Mario Kart is...weird and inconsistent in regards to which characters can be chosen for a roster. Even Waluigi wasn't a guarantee, once.
I still find MK8's roster depressing, as amazing a game it is.



With the lone exception of Wario, DK, Waluigi and Daisy, the entire Mario cast is based exclusively around characters that appear in the mainline Mario platformers. So much to the point that they come up with bull**** baby/metal variations for like half the cast instead of choosing more inspired picks like Diddy Kong. And don't get me started on the non-guest character DLC picks (Cat Peach? I mean ****ing really?).
 
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I still don't like how people mention Miyamoto first when talking about Paper Mario's current state. Sure he had a slight hand in some of the current problems but it's like 90% Intelligent Systems and 10% Miyamoto involvement that lead the series to where it is now.
Slight hand? He's pretty much the reason Sticker Star became what it is. IS were originally making a more traditional Paper Mario game, but Miyamoto turned it down because it was "too much like the one on the GameCube", and among other things, insisted that "it's fine without a story" and "as much as possible, (they should) complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world." And it's not like they could just turn down the creator of the franchise so easily, y'know.

Say what you will about him, Miyamoto's involvement in making the recent Paper Mario games the way they ended up shouldn't be understated, and to say he had a "slight hand" is doing just that.
 
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I just wish Super Paper Mario was appreciated more.
I use to dislike Super Paper Mario because of it not having the RPG mechanics of the first two games, but I've come to appreciate it more over years probably because of how bad SS and CS is. Super Paper Mario might have had the greatest story plot in the series.

I still find MK8's roster depressing, as amazing a game it is.



With the lone exception of Wario, DK, Waluigi and Daisy, the entire Mario cast is based exclusively around characters that appear in the mainline Mario platformers. So much to the point that they come up with bull**** baby/metal variations for like half the cast instead of choosing more inspired picks like Diddy Kong. And don't get me started on the non-guest character DLC picks (Cat Peach? I mean ****ing really?).
I don't get why Nintendo doesn't use any of the characters from SMB2/Doki Doki Panic and the Mario RPG games because there are so many unique characters they could use from those games to put into Mario Kart.
 
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From his perspective - why go with something like Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door 2 when you can do something new with the Paper Mario franchise? Why push Star Fox into uncharted territory storywise, when you can bring back Star Fox 64 with a new way to play?
aren't these completely contradictory though
 
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Fair point. I just hope this doesn't interfere with b-k' s chances
I doubt it... K. Rool would have missed the boat again if that were the case I think...


Besides if MS is doing all this stuff for Nintendo I doubt Nintendo would be vindictive and not put Banjo in Smash. If there was any bad blood between Rare and Nintendo I'm sure it's over by now... not too mention Miyamoto has less influence there.. just from the way the Switch has been handled you can tell Nintendo is going toward a different direction.
 
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