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Banjo is mainstream... He hasn't had a game in a while but he's still an icon of his era, just like Mega Man was of the NES. It's how a spiritual successor can get fully funded within mere minutes based on the value Banjo still has to this day.
Yea, true. I'm using a stricter definition: "So popular even grandmas recognize the character". Could he pull a Mega Man and appear first? Yes. I'm just doubting personally because of the weird situation. And that's not Banjo's fault at all, it's really strange circumstances.
In Banjo’s defense, he has one big important thing going for him right now: 90s nostalgia. We’re in the middle of a very nostalgic era of 80s and 90s nostalgia. Halo and Minecraft may be bigger franchises, but seeing a once-beloved Nintendo character finally returning to a Nintendo system via the biggest crossover franchise ever would be a much bigger news story to the target audience, not only because of the 90s nostalgia but also because it would be said nostalgic 90s character’s triumphant return.
Another big point in Banjo's favor, yea. It's just that all three characters have huge points in favor of them (Master Chief's an FPS icon and Xbox's main guy, Steve's the image of a long running, iconic game and insanely popular in Japan, Banjo's a major fan favorite and once was heavily pushed by Nintendo themselves). Really, really strange circumstances where everyone has big positives. Hell, Rash and Fulgore even are dark horse contenders.
Excluding two out of three for the first character in the game is far, far from easy. Because what's at stake in this case. A partnership between two big companies and console manufacturers.
also avoided spirits and tried to not go over 2 per company, may have missed a couple but these were the 1st 14 that came to mind that i thought would be cool additions, obviously some will probably never happen
Battletoads would be sweet in Smash, But I feel like their hasn't been that much demand for them because sidescrolling "Beat Em Up's" aren't a big genre anymore and were a more of a product of the 8 and 16-bit era even though the series is getting a new game it would likely be a niche title, Especially with Xbox's audience.
Battletoads was really Rare's 1st major original IP ,But that was before their partnership with Nintendo back on the NES when they were just another developer.
Donkey Kong Country is when everyone took notice and is what really put Rareware on the map, That's why the SNES and especially the N64 era overshadows not just their previous work during the NES era, But also everything they have done under Microsoft as well.
It's probably also the reason why their is such a heavy demand to revive the Banjo-Kazooie franchise and for them to join Smash.
Yea, true. I'm using a stricter definition: "So popular even grandmas recognize the character". Could he pull a Mega Man and appear first? Yes. I'm just doubting personally because of the weird situation. And that's not Banjo's fault at all, it's really strange circumstances.
Depending on your generation I'd say Banjo is a household name. He certainly was during his heyday, just as much as someone lesser than Mario or DK like Samus or Kirby. I highly doubt grandma knows Steve, because of the nature of Minecraft. She's probably heard of Minecraft but most gamers have no idea who Steve is. People conflate the iconic game and the random default skin far too much.
Battletoads would be sweet in Smash, But I feel like their hasn't been that much demand for them because sidescrolling "Beat Em Up's" aren't a big genre anymore and were a more of a product of the 8 and 16-bit era.
Battletoads was really Rare's 1st major original IP ,But that was before their partnership with Nintendo back on the NES when they were just another developer.
Donkey Kong Country is when everyone took notice and is what really put Rareware on the map, That's why the SNES and especially the N64 era overshadows not just their previous work during the NES era, But also everything they have done under Microsoft as well.
If anything any of the battletoads would be a great 2nd option as a newcomer. Sure isn't as big as Banjo, but I can totally see Rash's moveset involving those exaggerated movements and transformations in his limbs like the big boot as a dash attack or the Ram head as a side smash.
Frank O'Connor (343) tweeted about it out of the blue, then again Chinderblock wrote a rebuttal when it came out (spoilers so the post's not too big):
His statement only implied Master Chief wasn't in the game itself after downloading it. It's a literal truth.
It's not impossible that Chief was never negotiated for and he knows about that. But that's not what he said. His information doesn't imply any of that. He isn't legitimately disconfirmed. He's just not in the game you can currently download. That's all that's made clear. If he's under NDA, he wouldn't be able to say much more anyway. The vague statement is made in a way that people will think Chief isn't going to be in, which makes sure people will be surprised. NDA's are also not hardset in how they work. Many are able to say a lot of information, but only to a certain extent. What he said is literal enough that it doesn't prove he isn't in Smash DLC later on, nor say he is. It's basically a nothing statement in proper context. Without breaking the possible NDA. If NDA's were always the same agreement, then we'd have an answer, but they don't work that way.
So while I don't actually think he's likely to a major degree(I'm still on 20%), this statement overall doesn't do anything. Not the way it's poorly worded, anyway.
While I do lean towards Chinderblock's take, Neon issued a big fat "No" when I last brought it up in the general support thread (And I fully understand where he's coming from):
That's all predicated on the idea that Frank O'Connor, the guy who directs development of the franchise either wouldn't know how the franchise is developing or is being interpreted in such an obtuse, literal way that the clear implication is being discarded in favour of prolonging the hope that something obvious isn't what it means.
He said Master Chief isn't DLC. To take that to mean "well he's not DLC available RIGHT NOW" or to blame it on NDA even though his response was an impromptu reply to a tweet he wasn't even tagged in (and that wasn't even asking the question) is honestly grasping at straws.
I'll gladly run it all back if I'm eventually wrong, but this is one of the most straightforward deconfirmations out there, no reason required.
That's not the point though. The point is:
If Nintendo and Microsoft talked about cooperating, then it's likely that the subject of "Microsoft character getting into Smash" came up. Master Chief, Steve and Banjo all probably made the shortlist because of the huge positives. That's why I've been bringing those two other characters up, deconfirmed or not. They were probably discussed because of the stakes involved. So if Master Chief's a "No"? Well, that leaves Steve and Banjo. Still both characters with huge positives.
Who do you exclude? Would Banjo, Steve (or big maybe) Master Chief sell more DLC? That question probably wracked Nintendo's and Microsoft's brains. For weeks.
Frank O'Connor (343) tweeted about it out of the blue, then again Chinderblock wrote a rebuttal when it came out (spoilers so the post's not too big):
His statement only implied Master Chief wasn't in the game itself after downloading it. It's a literal truth.
It's not impossible that Chief was never negotiated for and he knows about that. But that's not what he said. His information doesn't imply any of that. He isn't legitimately disconfirmed. He's just not in the game you can currently download. That's all that's made clear. If he's under NDA, he wouldn't be able to say much more anyway. The vague statement is made in a way that people will think Chief isn't going to be in, which makes sure people will be surprised. NDA's are also not hardset in how they work. Many are able to say a lot of information, but only to a certain extent. What he said is literal enough that it doesn't prove he isn't in Smash DLC later on, nor say he is. It's basically a nothing statement in proper context. Without breaking the possible NDA. If NDA's were always the same agreement, then we'd have an answer, but they don't work that way.
So while I don't actually think he's likely to a major degree(I'm still on 20%), this statement overall doesn't do anything. Not the way it's poorly worded, anyway.
While I do lean towards Chinderblock's take, Neon issued a big fat "No" when I last brought it up in the general support thread (And I fully understand where he's coming from):
That's all predicated on the idea that Frank O'Connor, the guy who directs development of the franchise either wouldn't know how the franchise is developing or is being interpreted in such an obtuse, literal way that the clear implication is being discarded in favour of prolonging the hope that something obvious isn't what it means.
He said Master Chief isn't DLC. To take that to mean "well he's not DLC available RIGHT NOW" or to blame it on NDA even though his response was an impromptu reply to a tweet he wasn't even tagged in (and that wasn't even asking the question) is honestly grasping at straws.
I'll gladly run it all back if I'm eventually wrong, but this is one of the most straightforward deconfirmations out there, no reason required.
That's not the point though. The point is:
If Nintendo and Microsoft talked about cooperating, then it's likely that the subject of "Microsoft character getting into Smash" came up. Master Chief, Steve and Banjo all probably made the shortlist because of the huge positives. That's why I've been bringing those two other characters up, deconfirmed or not. They were probably discussed because of the stakes involved. So if Master Chief's a "No"? Well, that leaves Steve and Banjo. Still both characters with huge positives.
Who do you exclude? Would Banjo, Steve (or big maybe) Master Chief sell more DLC? That question probably wracked Nintendo's and Microsoft's brains. For weeks.
If it came down to an issue of "who will sell more DLC" then you objectively go for:
-Shock factor
-Name value
-Popularity with Smash fans, and how long they've been a request
-Recognition
-Moveset
Only one of the three ticks every box. Even if Master Chief wasn't already deconfirmed.
You also have to bare in mind that Phil Spencer actively name dropped Banjo as a character he wants to see in Smash, independently of being asked on twitter by randoms. We all know Nintendo can make really bad decisions but Banjo's the one who makes logical sense first and foremost.
Meanwhile Microsoft heavily markets Minecraft toward kids, while Smash's biggest audience is mainly about 15-30 somethings, so they'd have to take that into consideration before thinking of suggesting Steve. And so far every Minecraft-related event had nothing to do with Smash reveals.
As for Cuphead being a distant 3rd, it's so distant that we don't know when or if he'll get a sequel not covered by the exclusivity deal.
The most likely worse case scenario though is still this:
If anything any of the battletoads would be a great 2nd option as a newcomer. Sure isn't as big as Banjo, but I can totally see Rash's moveset involving those exaggerated movements and transformations in his limbs like the big boot as a dash attack or the Ram head as a side smash.
If it came down to an issue of "who will sell more DLC" then you objectively go for:
-Shock factor
-Name value
-Popularity with Smash fans, and how long they've been a request
-Recognition
-Moveset
Only one of the three ticks every box. Even if Master Chief wasn't already deconfirmed.
You also have to bare in mind that Phil Spencer actively name dropped Banjo as a character he wants to see in Smash, independently of being asked on twitter by randoms. We all know Nintendo can make really bad decisions but Banjo's the one who makes logical sense first and foremost.
Agree to disagree somewhat (what one views as obvious, another views as not so. Human psychology's weird). That said, we're talking about corporations discussing who to include. When stakes are this big, both Nintendo and Microsoft are going to tip toe just to be safe.
If Banjo's in, you can bet that there are plans already to include Steve, Master Chief or other Microsoft characters like Rash and Cuphead in the future. Same goes with Steve for example - if he instead is in, you can bet there are plans to include Banjo in a future wave.
And even with them tiptoeing, there's a major chance the two went with a weird, possibly even bad decision (Shock factor, for example). Organinzational culture's one heck of a drug. Miyamoto's insistence on "New ways to play. Every single Console has to have it!" and Sakurai seeing Smash as a party game (see Brawl) are great examples since they influenced entire games.
If anything any of the battletoads would be a great 2nd option as a newcomer. Sure isn't as big as Banjo, but I can totally see Rash's moveset involving those exaggerated movements and transformations in his limbs like the big boot as a dash attack or the Ram head as a side smash.
No your absolutely right, They would fit perfectly in Smash and would be cool with them joining the roster, I mean just look at Rash's guest appearance in Killer Instinct.
Meanwhile Microsoft heavily markets Minecraft toward kids, while Smash's biggest audience is mainly about 15-30 somethings, so they'd have to take that into consideration before thinking of suggesting Steve. And so far every Minecraft-related event had nothing to do with Smash reveals.
As for Cuphead being a distant 3rd, it's so distant that we don't know when or if he'll get a sequel not covered by the exclusivity deal.
Yeah, Smash and especially Ultimate was heavily marketed towards 80s/90s kids. Look at the big character choices:
K. Rool, Richter, Ken, Ridley, Simon. Even "Everyone is Here". It's totally a loveletter to 20/30 year olds that grew up playing those games and grew up with Smash. Persona 5 fits that too with its target demo. As does Erdrick if those rumours pan out.
Minecraft would be polarising at best, and outright disastrous at worst.
Since Chief is out, it really just comes down to Banjo and Steve. Also, while Shantae isn't a Microsoft IP, I would consider her to be a more likely indie rep than Cuphead.
RRetrogamerMax
Yeah, that's a given, although in her case she probably won't get in this soon, if kept in mind for Ultimate. Still likelier though, since she has the biggest indie demand by far.
Since Chief is out, it really just comes down to Banjo and Steve. Also, while Shantae isn't a Microsoft IP, I would consider her to be a more likely indie rep than Cuphead.
I agree with you on Shovel Knight being more popular overall. But Shantae I would say has a few brownie points in her favor that could give her the extra push to get in over Shovel Knight such as:
1. Her series has deeper ties with Nintendo with the first 3 games originally being Nintendo exclusives before going multiplatform.
2. She is more popular in Japan than Shovel Knight.
3. She has greater moveset potential than Shovel Knight.
4. She has 4 games while Shovel Knight only has 1.
5. There was a option in the Ballot to choose your gender so Shantae could have been the 2nd highest voted female in the Ballot.
6. She has a good amount of seniority over Shovel Knight.
Put that all together and Sakurai would find her the more interesting and worthy pick.
I feel like Cuphead would be hard to translate into smash. Specials are pretty set but Cuphead doesn't do any physical attacks. I'm sure they will make up a bunch of stuff for physicala and recovery.
Yeah, Smash and especially Ultimate was heavily marketed towards 80s/90s kids. Look at the big character choices:
K. Rool, Richter, Ken, Ridley, Simon. Even "Everyone is Here". It's totally a loveletter to 20/30 year olds that grew up playing those games and grew up with Smash. Persona 5 fits that too with its target demo. As does Erdrick if those rumours pan out.
Minecraft would be polarising at best, and outright disastrous at worst.
I dont see Edrick making as big a splash as Banjo or Shovel Knight. He does have the legacy as an old JRPG protagonist, but his name is barely known in the west. It would make more sense to market a character more well known across the east and west.
I dont see Edrick making as big a splash as Banjo or Shovel Knight. He does have the legacy as an old JRPG protagonist, but his name is barely known in the west. It would make more sense to market a character more well known across the east and west.
Shovel Knight doesn't fit that description either, he isn't popular in Japan. I would consider Rayman closer to Banjo's level of popularity than Shovel Knight on the global scale.
I don't know about anyone else but to me the smash momentum basically disappeared. And it appears to be a common opinion as well. So from the way I see it they need to pick the second DLC character very carefully. People are already fed up with the wait for Joker. So to keep the smash momentum going the second character really needs to make a splash. Not a person that is unknown to half the world.
I don't know about anyone else but to me the smash momentum basically disappeared. And it appears to be a common opinion as well. So from the way I see it they need to pick the second DLC character very carefully. People are already fed up with the wait for Joker. So to keep the smash momentum going the second character really needs to make a splash. Not a person that is unknown to half the world.
Smash hype is going to be a little low for the time being. Think of it like the calm before the storm.
At the very least, we have a timeframe for Joker's release (and almost definitely another Smash Ultimate Direct).
I don't know about you guys, but I'm just excited by the possibility of Home-Run Contest and Stage Builder returning. Ultimate is sorely lacking in single-player modes, and a stage builder would really help fill that gap.
What if the new stage builder includes a mode to create your own target tests where you design it around a particular character. A potential stage builder would greatly benefit from being able to share stages online and target tests, like levels in Mario Maker, would have to be beaten to be uploaded.
I don't know about anyone else but to me the smash momentum basically disappeared. And it appears to be a common opinion as well. So from the way I see it they need to pick the second DLC character very carefully. People are already fed up with the wait for Joker. So to keep the smash momentum going the second character really needs to make a splash. Not a person that is unknown to half the world.
Yeah, Smash and especially Ultimate was heavily marketed towards 80s/90s kids. Look at the big character choices:
K. Rool, Richter, Ken, Ridley, Simon. Even "Everyone is Here". It's totally a loveletter to 20/30 year olds that grew up playing those games and grew up with Smash. Persona 5 fits that too with its target demo. As does Erdrick if those rumours pan out.
Minecraft would be polarising at best, and outright disastrous at worst.
What? Persona 5 come out a few years ago, it's by no means at the same level at Street Fighter, DKC etc. If it's anything, it shows DLC will pander to nostalgia less and more on more relevant, critically acclaimed games. Which I'd approve, current roster heavily caters to old fans already.
And older fans have a beef with most newer characters, it wouldn't be a problem unique to Steve.
Steve is by no means a newer character. He has been around for 10 years. We've reached the point where people act nostalgic for Minecraft. You might want to pick a different character that people are hating on because they are new.
Yeah, Smash and especially Ultimate was heavily marketed towards 80s/90s kids. Look at the big character choices:
K. Rool, Richter, Ken, Ridley, Simon. Even "Everyone is Here". It's totally a loveletter to 20/30 year olds that grew up playing those games and grew up with Smash. Persona 5 fits that too with its target demo. As does Erdrick if those rumours pan out.
Minecraft would be polarising at best, and outright disastrous at worst.
It'd be polarizing at worst. And that's probably what it will be. But people raging on the internet isn't going to stop Steve from selling or appealing to the people he does appeal to, so "disastrous" is hyperbole and little else, as the detrimental effects of including Steve would be extremely negligible on the bottom line.
And btw that isn't Smash's sole target demographic. You can look at your omitted newcomers to see as much.
It'd be polarizing at worst. And that's probably what it will be. But people raging on the internet isn't going to stop Steve from selling or appealing to the people he does appeal to, so "disastrous" is hyperbole and little else, as the detrimental effects of including Steve would be extremely negligible on the bottom line.
And btw that isn't Smash's sole target demographic. You can look at your omitted newcomers to see as much.
Animal Crossing/Splatoon have a much wider target audience admittedly. Incineroar wasn't added as anything other than the token new Pokemon. My point still very much stands.
What? Persona 5 come out a few years ago, it's by no means at the same level at Street Fighter, DKC etc. If it's anything, it shows DLC will pander to nostalgia less and more on more relevant, critically acclaimed games. Which I'd approve, current roster heavily caters to old fans already.
And older fans have a beef with most newer characters, it wouldn't be a problem unique to Steve.
Young children tend not to play RPGs that are 100s of hours long. Persona is a teen to adult game. It's also PEGI 16, so specifically NOT aimed at children. Just because something isn't nostalgic it doesn't mean it's not aimed at an older audience.
Young children tend not to play RPGs that are 100s of hours long. Persona is a teen to adult game. It's also PEGI 16, so specifically NOT aimed at children. Just because something isn't nostalgic it doesn't mean it's not aimed at an older audience.
I'm talking about relative oldness. Yes, Persona 5's main audience is above 16 but main audience of 90's platforming games, old-school fighting games and classic Metroidvanias is still significantly older than them.
Animal Crossing/Splatoon have a much wider target audience admittedly. Incineroar wasn't added as anything other than the token new Pokemon. My point still very much stands.
It never stood in the first place. The extent of the damage Steve will do is polarize the fanbase. It wouldn't be the first time and it wouldn't be the last.
It never stood in the first place. The extent of the damage Steve will do is polarize the fanbase. It wouldn't be the first time and it wouldn't be the last.
But why do that when they can add Banjo to attract the nostalgia group who can shill him off to the younger generation? Banjo's lasting legacy with his fans is more profound and numerous than ever, whereas I don't see anyone except little kids wearing Minecraft merch today, and even then it's just a creeper. The best way to make all parties happy is to show off Steve as a $.99 Mii costume since most Minecraft merch is priced cheap for the kiddies. Since Joker sets the tone for the DLC, it's safe to speculate that older players who can afford the Fighters Pass are the main focus.
But why do that when they can add Banjo to attract the nostalgia group who can shill him off to the younger generation? Banjo's lasting legacy with his fans is more profound and numerous than ever, whereas I don't see anyone except little kids wearing Minecraft merch today, and even then it's just a creeper. The best way to make all parties happy is to show off Steve as a $.99 Mii costume since most Minecraft merch is priced cheap for the kiddies. Since Joker sets the tone for the DLC, it's safe to speculate that older players who can afford the Fighters Pass are the main focus.
This is a different argument entirely than the detriments of including Steve, which is the point I'm focusing on. Tackling this strawman would just turn it into another Banjo vs. Steve farce.
I'm talking about relative oldness. Yes, Persona 5's main audience is above 16 but main audience of 90's platforming games, old-school fighting games and classic Metroidvanias is still significantly older than them.
Smash hype is going to be a little low for the time being. Think of it like the calm before the storm.
At the very least, we have a timeframe for Joker's release (and almost definitely another Smash Ultimate Direct).
I don't know about you guys, but I'm just excited by the possibility of Home-Run Contest and Stage Builder returning. Ultimate is sorely lacking in single-player modes, and a stage builder would really help fill that gap.
I just hope that no one expects stage builder too strongly to be Minecraft, I'm pretty sure it'll be the same one as usual. It could be one of the remaining nails in the coffin on the "Steve is in" rumors.
I think Shantae's momentum is building up, actually. I haven't heard of SK getting much, if any, art on Pixiv, for instance. It helps that unlike SK she looks super-anime.
Besides, some characters got in despite Japan not caring that much about their series anyway.
I don't know about anyone else but to me the smash momentum basically disappeared. And it appears to be a common opinion as well. So from the way I see it they need to pick the second DLC character very carefully. People are already fed up with the wait for Joker. So to keep the smash momentum going the second character really needs to make a splash. Not a person that is unknown to half the world.
Honestly, it's good that people's expectations are rock-bottom, so that they can be pleasantly surprised for once. No sign of any Grinches yet, if you see any, ignore them desperately as possible.
Were people burned out this badly for Mewtwo? I get the impression that people ran out of ways to pass the time more efficiently.
I think Shantae's momentum is building up, actually. I haven't heard of SK getting much, if any, art on Pixiv, for instance. It helps that unlike SK she looks super-anime.
Somehow we always return to Steve.
Banjo is my most wanted and all, but I would settle for Steve. Minecraft is a legendary franchise and to have it in Smash would be an incredible feat. It would also increase Banjo's chances for the future significantly. I always see animosity between Banjo and Steve fans, but the two actually help each other out.
