Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #16 - Luigi

Zinoto

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:luigi2: is another MU thought to be difficult for us; however, has evolved over the years. It seems that it's time for the :diddy: boards to come up for a solid ratio at the current metagame.

It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.


Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-

This thread will be posted in the :luigi2: boards as well.
 

Luigisama

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Summary:
-You need to rush down diddy with Luigi before he can set up his banana camping game.
-Honestly other then the fact luigi can kill diddy early, he doesnt really have many advantages. (well other then jab of course)
-Fireball isn't really that special in this match up.
-It'll help you camp though if you manage to get a banana in hand.
-Utilt can still juggle relatively well.
-Luigi's cyclone wrecks Diddy's recovery.
-Diddy can gimp Luigi's recovery with banana plucks when he uses tornado.
- Diddy can use Fair to hit his side-b.
-Luigi wins in air game
-Diddy wins in terms of controlling the stage, but you can't go around smashing every time he slips since he slides so far.
- Diddy has problems comboing luigi due to his floatiness.
-Watch out for diddy's f-air for ko's.
-Luigi's back air and fireballs help a lot here.
-N-air is a good move up close.
-learn to glide toss.

____________________________________________


Tips and Tricks:
Jab combos that need SDI
Jab to up b or grab
jab to dsmash, ftilt, dtilt

____________________________________________


Counter-picks:
BF
SV*

Bans:
FD
Ps1
-Castle Siege and FD are diddy's best stages
-your next best are SV and PS1. When you're in killing range, just stay out of range of his smashes and wait til he approaches.
-Best neutral is either BF or Yoshi's.
-Best counterpicks for you are anything small, a low ceiling, or something that allows you to get diddy off the stage.
-Stay away from overly large stages or stages that allow diddy to recover easier.

This is everything we got on you guys. We basically simplified our mu info. If you want us to go in depth for other things. I'm sure some luigis will be glad to provide some info. :) :luigi:
 

Zinoto

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I used to think :luigi2: beat :diddy:, but after playing Zhao and Yoshq I definitely think it's in our favor. We wall you guys out really well and if we play extremely safe, there isn't much for you to do. I'll go in depth later, but I'd put it at +1 :diddy:.
 

Luigi player

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Yep if Diddy camps hard enough it's +1 for Diddy. It's also easy to intercept Luigis recovery (if he has to use downB/sideB).
 

TreK

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I talked a bit about this with Neath, who played my Luigi last time we met.
We agreed on a couple points :
-Bananas have like, no reward for diddy in that matchup. On the other hand, Luigi with a banana CAN approach. Your role is to keep Luigi out, so make sure he doesn't steal bananas.
-Bananas push Luigi to the ledge, where he's weak. Profit !
-You should be able to edgeguard Luigi easily, for his recovery is really laggy (both sideB and downB are punishable from pretty much anywhere). You can't just nana into a kill against Luigi, so this may be your only chance of killing him.
-Diddy's fair outranges pretty much everything Luigi can throw at you, except maybe for Luigi's bair.

Other than that :
-If you DI Luigi's jab upwards, he will upB you. DI away.
-Luigi can use his nair's weak hitbox to deal hits with Diddy's upB.
-Luigi can rise with his tornado only once per jump, except if he gets hit during the nado. If you hit him after he's used it, he's pretty much dead.
-Luigi can nair out of Diddy's usmash, between the second and the last hit.

Regarding stages, I'd say Halberd and Delfino are Luigi's best. Remember that Luigi kills from the top and you kill from the sides.
 

Player-1

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I used to think :luigi2: beat :diddy:, but after playing Zhao and Yoshq I definitely think it's in our favor. We wall you guys out really well and if we play extremely safe, there isn't much for you to do. I'll go in depth later, but I'd put it at +1 :diddy:.
zhao almost beat you and i pooped on yoshq in a mm too (well kinda he took a game off me with a gimp, but i like 2 stocked him the next two games).



if it aint biglou it's free
 

GOofyGV

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diddy only wins this mu if he plays ultra safe and when he camps the **** out of luigi like
wait for him to come throw banana he slides away and repeat.

Luigi can't really uproach an camping diddy and it's a pain for luigi when diddy has the lead.
I think it's +1 diddy when the diddy camps hard if not then even.
 

Player-3

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+1 diddy if he doesnt camp +2 if he does luigi cannot approach diddy if he knows how to stuff his approaches
 

Luigi player

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-Bananas have like, no reward for diddy in that matchup. On the other hand, Luigi with a banana CAN approach.
This is false. Diddy can get followups from bananas if you glidetoss to where Luigi is and he's near enough. Dsmash, ftilt, another banana, and probably some other stuff that doesn't really matter all work. It's true that you don't always get followups on him that would work on other chars, but there still are followups so what you said (and I read this often already from many people) isn't really true.

As for Luigi approaching with a banana... I don't really see it being easy/that rewarding for Luigi. If Diddy puts the other banana in front of him Luigi can do NOTHING but wait, or roll through it right into Diddys arms (or jump and get fair'd/Diddy runs away - if Luigi jumps Diddy can always retreat since he's falling so slowly and is moving really slow horizontally too).
Other than that - if Diddy doesn't put the banana in front of him all Luigi can do is glidetoss (which is still pretty laggy). I don't really see it too treatening, because of it's slowness and yeah... if you just shield what's gonna happen? Just don't get hit so you won't get upB'd. It's not that difficult to avoid getting hit and tripped (be in the air, jump on platforms... just get the other banana and then approach with shielding can also work since Luigi wants to get rid of the banana and you don't care if you have one).

You can't just nana into a kill against Luigi, so this may be your only chance of killing him.
Yes you can.

Regarding stages, I'd say Halberd and Delfino are Luigi's best. Remember that Luigi kills from the top and you kill from the sides.
Why Delfino? I like Delfino. :] I'd also ban Halberd probably (although Diddy still wins there, but upB / other stuff definitely is even more scary there).
 

Zinoto

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zhao almost beat you and i pooped on yoshq in a mm too (well kinda he took a game off me with a gimp, but i like 2 stocked him the next two games).



if it aint biglou it's free
Well, Zhao is good. That kinda happens when you play good players.

Also, I guess I should do a write up. I started doing what Vato has been doing and have a writeup on :luigi2: on my iPod.


:diddy:-:luigi2:

(55-45) +1 :diddy: Advantage
Stages - :smashville::fdb::battlefieldb:
Bans - :halberd::lylat::rainbowcruise:

  • Bananas combo much less, but you can still get followups.
  • If you trip Luigi while he has forward momentum, you CAN follow up.
  • Luigi only slides too far if you hit him with the banana to trip him.
  • Keep Luigi out in order to win this MU.
  • Many of Luigi's moves kill early, so watch out for mixups at around 90%.
  • Tornado will obliterate our barrels, so if you have to use them aim high.
  • Up-b will kill on :smashville: at 46% fresh.
  • Whiffed Aerial --> airdodge --> up-b is a dangerous mixup if not expected.
  • If his fsmash is angled upwards, the lag is cut down significantly.
  • Fairing Luigi's shield causes him to slide too far for him to punish without making a read.
  • His dthrow is a tech chase situation, so play smart to get out of a perilous situation.
  • Nair comes out ridiculously early and can kill pretty well.
  • Look out for his tornado approach.
  • Hit him out of side b/tornado/double jump for an easy gimp.
  • We cannot infinite luigi.

* Note do not ban :rainbowcruise: if you are Player-1 as this may cause you to lose the set.
 

Player-1

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don't CP BF, PS1 and Castle Siege are better CPs. 3rd transformation is like a titled FD, 2nd transformation has high ceilings and we can pressure luigi really well since if we hit him with a banana he slides (nearly) off the sides, first transformation isn't good, but isn't bad.

and IDK why you would ban RC even if you aren't me. Luigi's air mobility sucks which hurts him on this stage.
 

Zinoto

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PS1 is a good CP; however, the ones I listed are meant to be started on, not
CPed. Lots of players have different preferences, so I kinda just left them out all together.

I agree though that PS1 is a good CP, but not RC. Luigi has a lot of shenanigans on the slopes and under the pendulums that (if Luigi is leading) are retardedly broken. Idk just wifi experience on that stage. Also Luigi doesn't have nearly as much trouble approaching on the flatter parts.

:phone:
 

Player-1

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i'm not saying to CP RC, just don't think it's a good idea banning it, and no Luigi doesn't have many tricks on this stage at all, the biggest advantage he gets is just being able to kill early at the top part since the ceiling is low
 

TreK

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Luigi sucks on RC. The stage scrolls faster than Luigi's aerial moving speed. In the air, if Luigi goes against the scrolling, he is at best stationary.
The scrolling only helps Luigi by making his dash attack unDI-able. That's a reeeeeeaaaally small counterpart.
Besides, the stage kinda prevents juggling, because you're never 'forced' to land anywhere (especially on the rising part). That's good for diddy, and bad for Luigi.
This is false. Diddy can get followups from bananas if you glidetoss to where Luigi is and he's near enough. Dsmash, ftilt, another banana, and probably some other stuff that doesn't really matter all work. It's true that you don't always get followups on him that would work on other chars, but there still are followups so what you said (and I read this often already from many people) isn't really true.
Yup, it happened to me a couple times, but if you keep Luigi away like you should be doing, you won't really be able to land ftilts and smashes.
When Luigi reaches death percents, that's actually an advantage for him : he can just choose to land far enough and with a backwards momentum to make sure he doesn't get smashed out of the bananas he may take in the face.
As for Luigi approaching with a banana... I don't really see it being easy/that rewarding for Luigi. If Diddy puts the other banana in front of him Luigi can do NOTHING but wait, or roll through it right into Diddys arms (or jump and get fair'd/Diddy runs away - if Luigi jumps Diddy can always retreat since he's falling so slowly and is moving really slow horizontally too).
I never said that it was easy, I said it went from 'impossible' to 'possible'. It's giving a fast projectile to a character whose main weakness is his slowness.
However, I don't see how a banana is NOT rewarding for Luigi. If he hits you with it, he can land any of his smashes so you'll eat at least 20%, be in the air/get killed... and let him pick up the second banana so he can maintain his newly gained momentum. You can't say the same for diddy, that's why I said bananas are more rewarding for luigi than diddy in this matchup.
Other than that - if Diddy doesn't put the banana in front of him all Luigi can do is glidetoss (which is still pretty laggy). I don't really see it too treatening, because of it's slowness and yeah... if you just shield what's gonna happen? Just don't get hit so you won't get upB'd. It's not that difficult to avoid getting hit and tripped (be in the air, jump on platforms... just get the other banana and then approach with shielding can also work since Luigi wants to get rid of the banana and you don't care if you have one).
Luigi's back glidetoss is indeed long and laggy, and that's why you won't see it used offensively really often. It's mainly used to punish any zoning mistake from far away.
...Like a diddy camping on a platform. I wouldn't do that if I were you. Rule n°1 : stay under, or on level with Luigi.
Why Delfino? I like Delfino. :] I'd also ban Halberd probably (although Diddy still wins there, but upB / other stuff definitely is even more scary there).
Luigi sucks on the ledge, and the stage gives him other recovery routes : he can now go through it from under, or plank until the platform lands. Either way, giving him more options kinda negates this weakness.
There are also a lot of slopes, and slanted grounds offer a protection against bananas.
I usually CP this as Luigi if brinstar is illegal and halberd is banned. Well either this, or Yoshi's island (hitting maskasses refresh my bair and nair so I have additionnal killmoves).
 

Luigisama

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I really want to know what diddys think about this.

Luigi v.s diddy no bananas at all. easy or hard without bananas?
 

BigLøu

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I disagree with bananas having no reward. Even if diddy can't follow up after it, he can do something even better which is keep luigi out. Take your time in the matchup, luigi shouldn't be able to approach.
 

Zinoto

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Big Lou still uses swf o.O?

Also, I doubt our side b will beat his. I don't know a situation where we would need to use side b to counter his. I'd just fair him back offstage.
 

Luigisama

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Big Lou still uses swf o.O?

Also, I doubt our side b will beat his. I don't know a situation where we would need to use side b to counter his. I'd just fair him back offstage.
fair is a better choice. just so you guys know luigi's sideb has no priority even if it misfires so you can beat it with anything.
 

BigLøu

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Big Lou still uses swf o.O?

Also, I doubt our side b will beat his. I don't know a situation where we would need to use side b to counter his. I'd just fair him back offstage.
I pop in from time to time. I've just been really busy as of late =/
 

TreK

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It can. Just beware of the misfire : it shoots higher and has a bigger hitbox.
 

Zinoto

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Alright, do these discussions are coming to a close this week. Please post ratios of what you think he MU is, barely anyone is don't that..

:phone:
 

RiverDB

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I'm going to say it's a +1 for Diddy
Diddy has the tools to keep out Luigi, and even without the great reward we usually get from a connecting naner, it's still enough to keep us going.
 

Luigisama

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I would say it's 50:50. Diddy can keep luigi out, but if Luigi can just get rid of the bananas and force diddy to fight him. Luigi has a better chance of winning. Vice versa if diddy does a great job in keeping luigi out diddy wins hands down.

This ratio I'm putting up is also under the assumption that it's high level play between both characters. IE Boss v.s ADHD
 

SaveMeJebus

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+1 for Diddy. Camp with a banana in front of you and it's pretty hard for Luigi to get in. His recovery is also pretty predictable and it's easy to rack up damage on him offstage
 
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