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Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread
- Thread starter Krynxe
- Start date
money match me
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I feel like I missed several key steps between
Besides, is MM dittos even a thing for Puff?
and
If a MM outcome dictates what grip is better, then go MM HBox and see what grip is better.
Besides, is MM dittos even a thing for Puff?
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Well, I explicitly spoke of performance improvement and you responded that your play improved, which doesn't sound like it directly addresses what I said. So I clarified my question (performance -> results) and asked for you to clarify your response because it came off as evasive. Nowhere did I say you do or don't understand anything.
Accusing me of making assumptions about you rings hollow when you base that accusation on the assumption that I'm trying to **** on you for no reason.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
Y typically.
deadPhoenix
Smash Apprentice
Hey all, just wondering, thought I'd hit you all up here, what do you guys do against projectile camping? I feel like I'm forced to approach, and then I just get punished.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Mang0: Before I start all of this.. I got one thing to say..Once there was a great man named Gimpyfish who told me something..That Changed my life =). He said "u dont have to go to him if u dont want him". Which means is like when someone is camping u dont have to go to them all the time. JUST BE PATIENT!!! and keep ur spacing people!
deadPhoenix
Smash Apprentice
While that's what I thought I was supposed to do, somebody like Samus, if they hit enough projectiles, can just KO you and then you HAVE to approach them. I guess my question is, what do you do when you HAVE to approach a projectile camper?
squible2
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Messages
- 36
Dealing with projectile camping is kind of like a game of chicken. If someone's shooting you with projectiles, they're probably near the edge of the stage. As you move in closer, it would be really bad if the opponent got hit with a bair and starts flying off stage. To fight against this, once puff is in a threatening range, the opponent usually jumps out with a nair or something, trying to hit the puff away so they can go back to projectile camping. Puff has great aerial mobility though. As puff, you predict this attack, fade back, and hit the opponent anyway. Eventually, your opponent will catch on and keep shooting you even when you're in a threatening range. Now you can just go in and hit them because they won't expect it.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Even if you have to approach, you don't have to approach immediately and you can also back out partway through an approach. The point is, if you approach on their terms you're probably gonna get wrecked. It's still a baiting game. You need to have the patience and spacing to create an opening where you can approach on your terms instead of his.
Chess legend Aron Nimzovitch once said, "The threat is stronger than the execution," or something to that effect. It applies to Smash pretty well because how they react to the threat of approach is going to be the same or similar to how they would react to the actual approach. Like squible says, if you just get within sh bair range and hang out there to see how they deal with the threat of bair, you can exploit that behavior.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
ZPS is good against Samus missiles and charged shot
Massive
Smash Champion
Samus projectile spamming is actually pretty easy to deal with, especially since it locks her into an action.
You can totally nair-clank through missiles without getting knocked out of aerial, that usually shuts down a Samus approach pretty quick. If you're close enough, nairing through the missile is also free damage on Samus.
Also, bombs will never kill you, when she's bomb-recovering just chase her down and trade/kill.
You can totally nair-clank through missiles without getting knocked out of aerial, that usually shuts down a Samus approach pretty quick. If you're close enough, nairing through the missile is also free damage on Samus.
Also, bombs will never kill you, when she's bomb-recovering just chase her down and trade/kill.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
Psh honestly, the fact that you can crouch under her missiles is enough. I've never tried attacking through them.
deadPhoenix
Smash Apprentice
This all helps a ton guys, I really appreciate it :D
Puffinator
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2005
- Messages
- 768
Anybody understand why full hop nair is good against fox?
deadPhoenix
Smash Apprentice
Another question on movement: Why is it that sometimes after up throwing, I can't jump for several frames? It feels like I'm stuck there for some time, and it prevents me from getting up throw rests. I don't understand why this happens, any insight on this?
EDIT: Also been wondering about nairs and why they're good, insight on that would be great as well ^
EDIT: Also been wondering about nairs and why they're good, insight on that would be great as well ^
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Not all throws have this property. Some throws like Dthrow are always the same. I don't know if Uthrow is affected, can someone confirm?
Massive
Smash Champion
Spacies are most dangerous with downward momentum and a long duration, short recovery (in traditional fighting game terms, meaty) aerial out. Fullhop nair has the benefit of sitting at the correct height to stuff fox/falco before they reach the apex of their shorthop, before they have started that desirable downward movement.
It also works very well on captain falcon and sheik.
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squible2
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Messages
- 36
I did not know that different throws are affected differently. From my experience, I definitely notice the lag with up-throw.
deadPhoenix
Smash Apprentice
My problem is that I have noticeably MORE lag than normal, only sometimes, against Fox/Falco. I'll be mashing jump and it seems like Jiggly is cemented to the stage. It only happens once and a while but it happens.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
You can try holding R and C-up which will buffer jump on the first available frame, but honestly, I recommend just practicing your timing.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, you could probably use R + C-up to help learn the timing for jump.
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3 options: mash, buffer the jump, time the jump.
Buffering could be helpful here. Almost no one uses it all the time but I personally think it can be really good. Hold shield and C stick up to full hop on the second available frame. It's not the first frame like this guy said ^ because a frame is needed for the shield to come out.
You can debate between buffering and timing, but both are better than mashing. For timing, learn when you can jump (take weight of the opponent into account), then just press jump once at the right time. Mashing is bad for this type of thing. You might get the fastest jump sometimes, but if you leave the timing up to mashing you will also get very slow jumps sometimes. Note that Falco is heavier than Fox, so the timing may be slightly different.
It could also be a controller issue, but try to not mash first before you jump to that conclusion.
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DD_
Smash Journeyman
His Spacing, Movement and Mindgames/Reads are all phenomenal on top of a very good understanding of the game, something some would argue a lot of puff mains lack. Don't count out expierance as well. A combination of all these things is what puts HBox above the rest of us.
Keblerelf
Smash Ace
he knows how to avoid getting hit. He doesn't put himself into positions where the other person can hit him without committing to something unsafe.
For example, I jump over people's shields a lot in order to cross them up, but that usually leads to me get hit with a rising aerial. Hbox just doesn't do it.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I'd say it depends on what exactly you mean by "so good."
If you mean good relative to players in general, well, there's no one thing that makes a player one of the big 5 (or big 6). Even if I could tighten up and perfect everything I think is lacking in my game, I still probably wouldn't be at his level. His reads are off the charts, and even beyond that he probably sees things that are invisible to both me and the rest of us.
If you mean good relative to Puff mains in particular, it's a combination of ^ that stuff and the fact that there aren't very many Puff players. Basically, a huge reason there are so many good Foxes is because there are so many Foxes period, and a huge reason there are so few good Puffs is because there are so few Puffs period. Boring, I know, but it's a contributing factor.
I believe there is a better reason why there are so many Foxes and so few Puffs. Puff is seen as a lame and easy character who is actually very hard to play and also gets completely wrecked by Fox.
Meanwhile Fox is a flashy, technical character who is also the best character in game, Fox players respected for their technical abilities and dedication. There also the the whole in the year 20XX thing.
I also believe that in the average level of play Fox has a much easier time winning than Puff. Puff requires more abstract skills that most average players haven't gotten down so well like conditioning, perfect spacing and proactive play. With Fox you can get quite far with the basic techs like nairplane and SHDL. With Fox being so fast you can play much more on reaction which is much easier than proactive play. This starts to even up at higher levels of play where every character is almost equally ridiculously hard to play.
Meanwhile Fox is a flashy, technical character who is also the best character in game, Fox players respected for their technical abilities and dedication. There also the the whole in the year 20XX thing.
I also believe that in the average level of play Fox has a much easier time winning than Puff. Puff requires more abstract skills that most average players haven't gotten down so well like conditioning, perfect spacing and proactive play. With Fox you can get quite far with the basic techs like nairplane and SHDL. With Fox being so fast you can play much more on reaction which is much easier than proactive play. This starts to even up at higher levels of play where every character is almost equally ridiculously hard to play.
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Jank++
Smash Cadet
Yeah puff definitely needs to fire her PR guy. Shes a ****ing cool character that requires such a unique skill set in addition to your standard mastery of techskill and movement options. It's a shame there aren't more players out there pushing her meta.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I have found new tech to practice: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HghTnO5VXts
deadPhoenix
Smash Apprentice
That is filthy... amazing
Mahone
Smash Champion
I claw. I learned it when i started playing competitively. Before i played competitively i did not even enter tournies so I had no results. QED it helps and is objectively the best way to play jiggs
Hbox is good cuz hes consistent and doesnt put himself in bad spots almost ever like keblerelf said. That being said i think he does a lot of stuff poorly, so believe in yourself and ull be better than him in no time!
Now i have to go practice shielddrop resting marth for 20 hours
Hbox is good cuz hes consistent and doesnt put himself in bad spots almost ever like keblerelf said. That being said i think he does a lot of stuff poorly, so believe in yourself and ull be better than him in no time!
Now i have to go practice shielddrop resting marth for 20 hours
Jank++
Smash Cadet
My gimmick practice is finally paying off, getting some shield drop rests and sing instant ledge grab vs spacey side-bs in tournament ;D
Also, I think claw is a fantastic way to play puff, I don't think I'll ever be able to convert though it just feels too awkward and I'm not willing to take the giant step back and re-learn everything. I'm currently working on switching from X to Y though as I feel like it's making my quick C-sticking more consistent. I'm able to get short hop fading bairs -> dj before landing with Y and c-stick now fairly consistently. I don't think claw is super necessary but if I could go back in time I probably would have learned to play with it instead...
Jobes
Smash Apprentice
Hey all. I got an opportunity to play on stream again and was hoping you guys would be willing to give it a watch and a critique.
Here's the set: http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/670900044?t=2h27m45s
(2:27:45 if the timestamp doesn't work)
I felt pretty locked down by Falco's lasers, both in neutral and when trying to get off the ledge. Any tips on the Falco matchup, and especially my play in general would be really appreciated.
Here's the set: http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/670900044?t=2h27m45s
(2:27:45 if the timestamp doesn't work)
I felt pretty locked down by Falco's lasers, both in neutral and when trying to get off the ledge. Any tips on the Falco matchup, and especially my play in general would be really appreciated.
How do you deal with foxes recovering low with up B? I can get to them if they go high or horizontally, but if they drop down low below the stage and firefox upwards, I find it very hard to intercept the firefox with a bair or make it down in time to gimp them.
You can wait for them to come upwards with the upB then Pound them. This should set up a good edgeguard situation. If they tech you are still in a good position.
Don't do this if they are at a high % since they will get launched too far for you to follow up.