AURA GYM: The Ultimate Player's Guide to Lucario (W.I.P.)

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A U R A -- G Y M

The Ultimate Player's Guide to Lucario



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Introduction:

Lucario once again returns in another iteration in the Smash Bros series. Things have changed quite a bit between Smash4 and Ultimate, and many players are still trying to figure Lucario out. Zero put Lucario in his Top Tier, referring to Lucario as a "Sleeper pick." Leffen didn't have much information to go with for his list. Still others, like Shokio, were unsure and felt deficient in knowledge to put a solid opinion Lucario, as can be seen here. It seems to be a common theme among smashers getting into Ultimate, to be unsure and unfamiliar about Lucario: an understated enigma waiting in the wings. It's my hope that with this guide, we can begin to shine a more definitive light on the nature of Lucario in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.​
Smash Bros Youtuber JoeK has released an introduction/overview video as part of his "Why You Should Main X Fighter" series.​
While JoeK's video doesn't go into great detail, it is a handy, concise overview of Lucario in Smash Bros Ultimate.​
Smash Bros Youtuber lilDan596 has also produced a short guide and analysis video on Lucario.​
Notably, it lists and shows examples of a variety of useful combo, stings, and setups that are possible.​
YouTuber and Smasher ANTi has produced an overview of Lucario's moveset and some analysis on combos/strings/setups.​
The videos are decent jumping off point to get into Lucario, but they stay clear of specific minute details. That's fine for short overview videos, especially for the early metagame where we are now. Details and breaking it all down to it's smallest parts is what this thread is all about, and I will do as much as is reasonably feasible to keep this guide up to date, accurate, and thurough.​
For convenience, I've broken the guide up into discreet sections, each having their own post for easy reference.​


Table of Contents:

Frame Data
Move Characteristics

Aura Chart
Detailed Analysis

Getting into the match

Character Specific Analysis

What can you do to improve your Lucario game?


12/21/2018: The initial posts are made. Still bare-bones at the moment. Filling in with basic templates.
Soon to work on Aura post
Later to work on Moveset post. Need Frame Data.

12/21/2018
Have frame data from Zapp Branniglenn. Need to review it for accuracy/completeness.
Practicing for upcumming Tournament. Updates may be slow for a hot minute.

12/27/2018
Did a quick but important addition to moveset breakdown, mainly Up B Extreme Speed

01/04/2019
Added frame data to moveset breakdown. Also added notes for further lab work for frame data not covered in Zapp Branniglenn's chart.
Filled in the Aura page of the guide. Have some more overview work to do.
Added JoeK's "Why You Should Main Lucario" video to intro post

01/07/2019
Did some further frame data lab work

01/10/2019
Added more detailed descriptions and uses of moves in moveset post. Still more work to do.
Added a visual graph representing Aura Stock Differences.

01/13/2019
Changed thread/guide title so not to have the same name as the Lucario Discord server
Added quoted analysis from Lewdcario (see Helpful Contributors section)

01/1//2019
Filled out Force Palm and partially filled out Aura Sphere sections of the Moveset breakdown. Intend to complete soon.

Thanks to:
@Zapp Branniglenn for the extensive frame data.
Ajani Ajani for lab work and comparative frame data analysis.
YouTuber JoeK for making a handy video on Lucario.
YouTuber lilDan596 for making videos of his own.
@Lewdicario on Twitter / Lewdcario#0448 on Discord for Analysis (he's writing a guide of his own, hope to see it soon!) Quoted content used with permission.
@Luccc#3080 on Discord for Frame Data and analysis.
YouTuber and Smasher ANTi for an insightful video.


Final Thoughts:

I'd like to end with an invitation to contribute, to share here any data you've collected, to pass on wisdom you feel may help, to voice any opinion about Lucario that might have the slightest relevance. This guide is meant to be a fluid, inclusive reference pool, a repository for anyone to help build. Suggestions of any kind to help improve are not only welcomed, but thoroughly encouraged, and I daresay necessary if this guide is to become what it truly deserves to be. I am only one person: I don't always have time to invest in analyzing and investigating every nook and cranny of game data for specific minutia. With only my set of eyes, it's entirely likely I've made some formatting errors along the way, or there's something awkward or confusing in any one of the sub-posts.​
 
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Moveset and Kit Breakdown

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This is a comprehensive overview of Lucario's entire moveset. Right now, it has fairly extensive frame data, along with analysis by me and a bit of discussion on moves' uses and properties. More details are in the pipeline in the future, along with any extra bells and/or whistles that might be nice to include. (Just need to fill out Aura Sphere and Force Palm sections. That will be a doozy by itself.)

Frame Data used in this page was collected and documented here: Master Frame Data Spreadsheet by @Zapp Branniglenn, as well as here: Another Frame Data Spreadsheet. In further addition to all this, I also do a bit of extra lab work myself to isolate more helpful data for players, and I'm adding notes for additional lab work that I feel still needs to be nailed down.

Since Damage for every single move is variable by Aura, damage will not be listed here. Please refer to this handy Aura Chart for specific damage, and also refer to the dedicated Aura Section of this guide for Aura details.


Special Moves
YouTouber lildan596 has put together a brief video going over the basics of Lucario's Special moves (sans Aura Sphere)​
A fine basic starter for Lucario's special moves. The section below will dive into each special move to the greatest depths that is feasible to so.​
Aura Sphere (Neutral B)
Move description:
Lucario charges a sphere of pure Aura between his hand-paws.​
Aura sphere can be fired at any point during charge, or the charged shot can be stored for later.​
Charge-up has a quickly repeating hitbox.​
Uses:
This is, quite possibly, Lucario's most ubiquitous and most versatile tool in the bag.​
At its most basic, Aura Sphere is a storable, chargable projectile that varies in power depending on how long it's charged, with many properties similar to Samus' Charge Shot or Mewtwo's Shadow Ball. That, however, is pretty much where the similarities end...​
Like all of Lucario's moves, Aura Sphere's power increases with Aura buildup, as well as the hitbox size and traveling speed of the Aura Sphere Shot.​
The shot itself has a wide array of zoning, spacing, punish and KO possiblities, the exact applications of which are broadly variable by, among other factors: the shot's charge, Lucario's Aura, opponent's/Lucario's stage position, and the tools the opponent has with which to respond.​
Low-charge shot has some basic zoning application, not nearly as universally useful as some other fighters' zoning tools, but can serve in a limited capacity depending on the matchup/opponent.​
Mid-charge shot has similar but slightly further-reaching/harder-hitting zoning capabilities as low-charge. In addition, the slightly lower travel speed and wobbling characteristics compared to full-charge shot can potentially throw off an opponent's timing for a dodge if they're expecting the faster traveling full-charge shot instead.​
Full-charge shot travels furthest, fastest, with the largest hitbox and most power behind it. A fully charged Aura Sphere is highly useful to, among other applications: punish landings, edge-guard, ledge-trap, a high-powered punish where a smash attack or other move might not reach. If the player feels like they have a good read and good aim, full-charge shot can also be used for some brutal sniping plays.​
A handy google Doc made by @Lucc3080 on Discord notes the interaction of Aura Sphere with all other projectiles of the cast. Notably, it says at which damage% Aura (even stocks) a full-charge Aura Sphere shot will overpower and plow through opposing projectiles, and which projectiles will stop it, etc.
Aura Sphere Interactions
Bear in mind though: the power, hitbox size, and traveling speed of the shot are variable not only by size, but by Lucario's Aura as well. See the dedicated Aura Section for details on Aura mechanics.​
(Aura Sphere Charge details to come soon)​


Frame Data
Aura Sphere Charge:
Enter charge state on frame: 8​
First Charge Hit on frame: 9​
Shot out from charge on frame: 9 / Complete on frame: 48​
Cancel charge (Charge Storage Cancel) 4 frames​
Cancel charge into shield: 4 frames (+2 frame shield-up)​
Cancel charge into Jump: 4 frames (+3 frame jump squat)​
Cancel charge into Spot-Dodge/Roll-dodge: 4 frames (+ roll/dodge startup frames)​
Full charge takes 99 frames to complete.​
(Further lab work reccomended to isolate frames of continued charge hits. Target drift/escape frames would be useful)​
Aura Sphere Shot:
Shot out on frame: 17 (8 frames to "enter charge state." 9 frames to "fire from charge")​
Complete on frame: 56​
Shot stays active for 60 frames. Active time not affected by charge/Aura.​
Force Palm (Side B)
Move description:
Lucario focuses for a moment, then fires a blast of Aura in front.​
If the opponent is close enough (ground only) Lucario will grab the opponent and blast the Aura directly into them, launching them up and away at about a 45 degree angle.​

Special Properties:
Force Palm Flame (FPF) hitbox reach scales with Aura: 3 meters min Aura / 6 meters max Aura.​
FPF hitbox has near/far sweetspot properties.​
In many instances, FPF behaves more like a disjointed hitbox rather than a projectile:​
- Can be reflected (any reflector)​
- Can be absorbed by PSI Magnet (Ness/Lucas)​
- Can be caught in Game & Watch Bucket​
- Cannot be inhaled or swallowed (Dedede/Kirby/Wario).​
- Cannot be caught in the pocket* (Villager/Isabelle).​
- Cannot be caught in Rosalina's Magnet Pull.​
Because Villager and Isabelle have invulnerability frames while the pocket catch is active, they won't be hit by FPF, or even FPG, despite not being able to put it in the pocket.
Because of this quasi disjoint quality, FPF will also hit but not be stopped by many attacks that would otherwise stop normal projectiles. Examples include:​
- Olimar's Pikmin​
- Rosalina's Luma​
- Villager's Tree​
- Swords or other disjointed hitboxes​
- Other projectiles​
Can be started in the air, and transition seamlessly to the grounded version with no landing lag, as an aerial attack would have instead.​

Uses:
Because of the Command Grab properties, Force Palm Grab (FPG) can potentially be used in several similar instances that a conventional grab might be, albeit with a 2 frame slower startup.​
With high launch power, especially with higher Aura, FPG is a highly viable KO option, especially useful if the opponent is shielding a lot and not choosing the best times to do so.​
Because of the seamless transition between air/ground, as long as Lucario hits the ground before frame 9 when the grab activates, Lucario can grab close to the frame-instant he lands, allowing for some dangerous tomahawk-grab style scenarios.​
Fore Palm Flame can also see use as a handy spacing tool, both grounded and in-air, made more and more effective with gradual Aura buildup increasing the max reach.​

Can be effectively used in as part of a Wave Bounce/B-Reverse. See the Strategy and Tactics section of this guide for more details on Wave Bounce/B-Reverse.​
Frame Data
Grab On frame: 9​
Grab Hit on frame: 37​
Grab Complete on frame: 50​
Hit on frame: 24​
Hit Complete on frame: 63​

Double Team (Down B)
Move description:
Lucario assumes a "crane" pose and a distinctive "whoosh" sound plays.​
If the counter is triggered, Lucario flashes for an instant, disappears, and reappears to deliver a nasty flying kick.​
Counter's Power is based only on Lucario's Aura, not the Power of the incoming attack, as is the case with many other Counter moves.​
Uses:
This is a counter. Opponent hits Lucario, Lucario strikes back automatically. Because of the disappear/teleport properties of Double Team, it has a few highly specialized and handy uses that other counters lack.​
For starters, Double Team comes out Fast: invulnerable at 4 frames and counter triggered as early as 5 frames. This means, if the opponent is getting Lucario trapped in a combo or a dangerous string, the Lucario player only needs a window of 4 frames to act to slip a counter in and break out. This ought to, at the very least, give the opponent pause when committing to combos or strings, since if anything they do gives Lucario that 4-frame window, a Double Team counter can come out.​
This is made all the more dangerous with the quasi-teleport properties of Double Team, in order to Jump to Target at Range.​
Unlike other counters, which mainly strike in-place, Lucario's Double Team will teleport Lucario to a new position to strike back, similar to Greninja's Substitute.​
I've done some lab work to get to the details, and the maximum range of Double Team's teleport seems to be when Lucario's counter is triggered about 4.5 meters from the opponent (using the training room measurements). Furthermore, it seems to be a maximum radius. Opposing attacks that reach up to hit Lucario from below will cause Lucario to teleport down to counter-strike, and vice-versa.​
Additionally, the direction Lucario leaps with the counter strike can be controlled. Analog stick left/right will determine the direction of Lucario's flying kick lunge.​
("sp" is the "spawn point" where Lucario appears after the teleport when the counter is triggered. "T" is the target, or the opposing fighter.)​
Stick Left : <----T--sp​
Stick Right : sp--T---->​
This means that opponents doing juggle, which normally aren't too concerned by a counter-in-place since the counter-strike will mainly hit in front (e.g.: Fire Emblem Sword-Fighters' counter), will be threatened by a Double Team teleport.​
Furthermore, if the Lucario player is fairly confident in the timing and spacing, Double Team can potentially be used to cut through opposing zoning and walling plays, bypassing projectiles and long/mid-range spacing with a powerful blow.​
Before we get carried away, take heed of the risk and the strings attached.​
The window that the Counter can be triggered is very tight, less than 20 frames long.​
The cooldown lag if there is no counter is very long and very obvious, so if the opponent is patient and careful, they can get an easy punish if Lucario abuses Double Team.​
There's also a lot of mid-air momentum attached to the counter-strike, and a lot of end lag in-air. I'm not too proud to admit that I've countered through opposing juggling, only to fling myself off the edge with no jump, and too far away to recover back.​
Very few characters in Smash have such a threatening anti-pressure tool. Value it, Respect it, but do not abuse it. Double Team is a privilege; a reward for smart play and careful observation; not something to throw heedlessly in the opponent's path and hope it works on its own.​

Frame Data
Invulnerable at frame: 4​
Counter triggered at frames: 5-24​
Complete (no counter) on frame: 70​
Counter Attack:​
Invulnerable at frames: 1-17 from trigger​
15 frames of freeze-frame on target when triggered by melee. Freeze-frame not triggered by projectiles.​
teleport 17 frames after trigger​
invulnerable frame 17-29 after trigger​
In-air end lag ~44 frames after teleport.​
(further lab work reccomended. in-air end lag is very long.)​



Extreme Speed (Up B)
Move description:
Lucario focuses for a split-second, and takes off. Can be steered in-air, details below.​
Has a hitbox at the very end of steerable travel, and a different hitbox if Extreme Speed hits a surface headlong or at a sharp angle, or "bonks" (about 55 degres or more above horizontal).​
Uses:
This is how you recover back to the stage. Get used to it. Practice it diligently.​
The Finish and Bounce hitboxes at the end can see some use to threaten the opponent's ledge pressure or landing pressure if you're feeling bold, and the opponent isn't paying attention.​
Can be a nasty KO surprise at higher Aura/%, or at much lower Aura/% if the Lucario player feels especially bold and confident in their aim.​
(In once instance I recall for example, when the opponent had caught the edge and lingered a bit before Lucario recovered: Lucario bounced off the stage just below the ledge, and the Bounce Hitbox caused a ledge-spike)​
Vectoring: Steering Extreme Speed
When you're first trying out Extreme Speed, especially when making turns, you may find that you'll accidentally oversteer, completely missing your mark.​
There are two distinct phases for steering Extreme Speed: 1) Startup and 2) In-Flight.​
1) Startup: Between the Up B input and when Lucario takes off (~21 frames), the player can input a direction for takeoff, much like many other linear recoveries, such as Fox's Fire Fox. The direction being held at the end of startup determines takeoff direction.​
2) In-Flight: Once Lucario takes off, the player can steer Lucario.​
Very Important: Remember the initial takeoff direction. This direction, this Takeoff Vector, is going to be Lucario's "center position" for the purposes of steering Extreme Speed. While in-flight, the angle of analog input relative to the Takeoff Vector will determine which way and how sharp Lucario will turn in Extreme Speed. Steering is not based on Lucario's current position or direction, it is exclusively based on the Takeoff Vector. This means if Lucario makes a 90 degree turn during Extreme Speed, the Analog input needed to make Lucario stop turning and travel straight will be 90 degrees off Lucario's current travel trajectory. Holding Analog input aligned to Lucario's new travel trajectory will cause Lucario to keep turning and likely oversteer. This is different from Smash4/Brawl, and it will take a bit of getting used to. Practice, Practice, Practice.
With Vectoring in mind, Lucario can be steered at any point during Extreme Speed while it is active. An initial sharp turn can be straitened out, a straight shot can end with a quick bend, an S bend can be used as well, along with any number of directions or maneuvers a player can come up with. Bear in mind that the player only has 15 frames, one quarter of a second, to steer. So decide your travel path, commit to it, and for Pete's sake try not to oversteer!​
Landing: Three Stages of lag, and the in-air "Dead Zone"
There are three ways Lucario can land on the stage after Extreme Speed: 1) Smooth Landing. 2) Bounce. 3) Freefall Lag.​
1) Smooth Landing: If Lucario starts Extreme Speed on the ground and stays there, the end lag is quite modest. The Smooth Landing can also be attained from air, but Lucario does have to travel a fair bit along the ground in order to get the Smooth Landing, far longer than it was in previous Smash games it seems. Otherwise, it's the same as Freefall Lag. (more lab work needed to isolate exact frame data)​
2) Bounce: If Lucario hits the ground (or other surface, be it wall, or below stage) at a sharp angle before Extreme Speed finishes, Lucario will run headlong into it, bounce off, and drift a bit before landing. The angle and direction of Lucario's drift after bouncing depends on the angle he bonks his head. Hitting face-first at full 90 degrees will make Lucario bounce straight up from the ground. Coming in at an angle thusly affects the angle of the bounce. Lucario can also bounce off the edge of the stage, and with the right angle, can easily drift up and catch the ledge afterward. Take special note that Bounce has a hitbox. It's not quite as powerful as the true finish of Extreme Speed, but it can still catch unwary opponents off-guard if they aren't prepared for it.​
3) Freefall Lag: If Extreme Speed finishes (that is, if the finishing hitbox comes out or starts to come out), then Lucario will land on the stage with Freefall Lag. Just about every character has Freefall Lag, when they can do no other option in the air besides fall or fastfall, almost always after using their Recovery move. Lucario is no different in that regard, and will go into Freefall lag when arriving back to ground after Extreme Speed. Thankfully, Freefall Lag for Lucario is no where near as ponderous as it was in Smash4, which is a bit of a relief when the Lucario player realizes that it's much more finicky and precise to get the Smooth Landing than before. You'll get short window of lag the opponent might exploit, but it's much tighter this time.​
The in-air Dead Zone: This is a particular case to be aware of, especially when recovering from off-stage. There is a short window, in-air, immediately after Extreme Speed's Finishing Hitbox, when Lucario cannot grab the edge. This means if Lucario is, for instance, sliding along the bottom of Battlefield with Extreme Speed, and gets to the edge just as the Dead Zone is active, Lucario's momentum will carry the poor guy right past the ledge and straight to one-less-stock town. Even if Lucario hits the Dead Zone going straight up, it'll give the opponent an opportunity for an easy punish before Lucario can drift back down to the ledge. The Dead Zone is a carryover from Smash4, but I feel still warrants repeating, if only as a public service announcement to Lucario Players everywhere.​
Frame Data
Takeoff Vector locked in at frame: 21​
Takeoff at frame: 31​
Steerable from frames: 31-46​
Landing Lag, Freefall: 40 frames from landing.​
Landing Lag, Bounce: 37 frames from impact/4 frames from second landing.​
(A bit more lab work still needed: in-air dead zone/smooth landing/etc.)​





Grounded Moves

Jab Combo
Move description:
A simple three hit jab combo, stepping forward and finishing with a kick.​
Uses:
Admittedly not the most impressive three-hit-jab in the cast, but it gets the job done.​
Best use I find is to have more active hitboxes to cover the opponent's evasive options, like waiting out an opponent's spot dodge.​
Mediocre as it is, Jab is still the fastest grounded option that hits in front that Lucario has, and it may be the only viable punish in some circumstances.​
Frame Data
Hit 1
Hitbox on frame: 7​
Complete on frame: 31​
Transitions to Hit 2 on frames: 12-14​
Hit 2
Hitbox on frame: 5​
Complete on frame: 34​
Transitions to Hit 3 on frames: 6-14​
Hit 3
Hitbox on frame: 9​
Complete on frame: 38​
Forward-Tilt
Move description:
Lucario thrusts a paw forward.​
Can be angled low/mid/high.​
Uses:
Useful as an out-of-dash spacing/coverage option that's quicker/tighter than Dash Attack, and can hit behind.​
Useful when a tighter or less commited poke/punish is more appropriate than sluggish attack, like a Smash Attack.​
Angling is helpful for anti-air, and low angle hits below the edge for another ledge trap or 2-frame.​

Frame Data
Hit 1 on frame: 12​
Hit 2 on frame: 15​
Complete on frame: 32​

Up Tilt
Move description:
A quick kick in an overhead sweeping arc from back to front.​
Has minor "tipper" sweet spot properties at the end of Lucario's foot-paw.​
Highest point of arc will hit opponents on Battlefield platforms from the ground.​
Uses:
Often strings together into itself at low percentages, so Up-Tilt chains are a real possibility depending on Aura, opponent damage, and air characteristics of the opposing fighter.​
Useful as a combo/string starter, and also has use as a combo/sting follow-up from a variety of setups.​
A fine option to respond to an opponent's cross-up, since the rear hitbox comes out so quickly.​
Frame Data
Hit on frame: 6​
Completes on frame: 32​
Note: Hitbox follows an overhead arc from back to front. Only the initial hit behind is on frame 6.​
Reaches highest point at frame: 10.​
Hits directly in front (aprox. Lucario's chest level) at frame: 13​

Down Tilt
Move description:
A quick, low thrusting kick.​
If the Down Tilt animation is interrupted. Lucario will scoot forward a very short distance from starting position.​
Uses:
A quick poke that reaches forward a fair distance.​
Useful to both start combos/strings and as a follow-up from other moves.​
Frame Data
Hit on frame: 9​
Completes on frame: 22​



Dash attack
Move description:
Lucario quickly leaps into a flying kick.​
Has minor "tipper" sweet spot properties at the end of Lucario's foot-paw.​
It can be a bit tricky to visualize when which Main/Late hitbox is out. I've done a bit of lab work, and here's what I can tell. When the Main hitbix is active, there is a prominent purple streak at a slight upward angle away from Lucario (lasting ~3 frames). Immediately after, the streaks transition to a few far more subtle, completely horizontal purple streaks (lating ~5 frames).​
Uses:
It's a fine option to catch opponents' landing or other grounded opportunities if they're out of reach for other moves.​
Good to use as a grounded follow-up from other moves. Many low-angle moves can combo or string into it.​
Can KO at very high %/Aura, but only really with the Main Hit sweetspot. Useful in a pinch, but not recommended as Lucario's first choice for the KO.​
Frame Data
Main Hit on frame: 7-9​
Late hit on frame: 10-15​
Complete on frame: 41​




Smash Attacks

Forward Smash
Move description:
Lucario winds up and lunges forward with both arms, slamming ahead with Aura.​
Has near/far sweet spot properties.​
Uses:
This is one of Lucario's most powerful punish tools. If you have a good read, if you know when and where your opponent will be in lag or will hit the ground, and you'll be there to make them regret it, Forward Smash is there to make them feel it.​
It will do a decent job getting the KO even without any Aura buildup whatsoever.​
Frame Data
Hit (no charge) on frame: 19​
Hit (release from charge) on frame: 16​
Complete on frame: 54​

Up Smash
Move description:
Lucario crouches low for the windup, and strikes upward with a powerful blast of Aura.​
Uses:
A high-powered punish, upward from ground.​
Note the very low hitbox of the "Hit 1 Scoop" that can catch prone, low-crouching, and ledge-hanging opponents if they linger there.​
Hit 1 has fixed knockback and does not scale with Aura or target damage.​
Under certain circumstances, such as a prone target, the target may only be hit by Hit 1, and overshoot Hit 2. (more lab work reccomended)​
Also note the very fast "release from charge" frame data, which means it has potential to catch opponents with precise reactions.​
One of the classic Aura Sphere Charge Cancel follow-ups. Timing and positioning is a bit more finicky than in previous Smash games, but can still get good use, especially if the opponent gets flustered or fumbles during the Aura Sphere charge and reacts poorly. Pay Attention.
Frame Data
Hit 1 (no charge) on frame: 15​
Hit 1 (release from charge) on frame: 4​
Hit 2 (no charge) on frame: 19​
Hit 2 (release from charge) on frame: 8​
Complete on frame: 63​

Down Smash
Move description:
Very similar to Forward Smash as far as frame timing. Doesn't reach as far, but hits both sides, and also doesn't a sweet/sour spot, so it will do the same damage/knockback regardless of position.​
Uses:
The usual for Smash attacks, being a high-powered punish. Can be used to cover roll options with the hitboxes on either side.​
Frame Data
Hit (no charge) on frame: 19​
Hit (release from charge) on frame: 15​
Complete on frame: 54​


Aerial Moves


Neutral Air
Move description:
A quick spin with arms outstretched, hitting twice front and back with Aura. Knocks opponent roughly straight out forward/behind.​
Uses:
With such low end lag, it's excellent for drag-down combos into a plethora of grounded options. Honestly, find a low-lag ground move and pick your favorite.​
The low knockback angle and decent in-air end-lag make it good for edge-guarding and low% recovery interceptions/gimps.​
At high Aura, Neutral Air will KO in a pinch if the opponent proves highly evasive and difficult to catch with more sluggish KO options.​
Frame Data
Hit 1 on: 10​
Hit 2 on: 18​
Complete in-air: 42​
Landing Lag: 5​



Forward Air
Move description:
A quick forward snap-kick. Knocks opponets up and forward at a roughly 45 degree angle.​
Uses:
Combos and strings for days. Will often true combo into itself at low%, can finish with N-air/U-air or other follow-ups depending on target drift and position.​
A useful areal move when you need a quick option for interception or coverage.​
Frame Data
Hit on frame: 7​
Complete in-air: 27​
Landing Lag: 9​
Back Air
Move description:
Lucario winds up and blasts behind him with Aura.​
Has near/far sweet spot properties.​
Uses:
Excellent aerial KO or punish move. Has frame timing, power, and hitbox comperable to Lucario's Smash attacks.​
On stages with flat walls over the ledge, a wall jump/wall cling to Back Air can threaten opponent's ledge pressure.​
Frame Data
Hit on frame: 13​
Complete in-air: 49​
Landing Lag: 14​
Up Air
Move description:
A flipping kick straight up.​
Has minor "tipper" sweet spot properties at the end of Lucario's foot-paw.​
Uses:
Useful overhead juggling move.​
Potential KO move when closer to overhead blast zone.​
Can hit opponents standing on the ledge from below, threatening opponent's mis-positioned ledge pressure.​
Frame Data
Hit on frame: 10​
Complete in-air: 38​
Landing Lag 13​
Down Air
Move description:
A quick double kick straight down. Stalls aerial momentum. Knocks opponents up and away at a high angle.​
Uses:
The hitbox extends a fair amount below Lucario. If done very quickly after a jump, it can reach many grounded opponents below Battlefield platforms.​
As one of the fastest areal options in Lucario's arsenal, it's a viable jump-out-of-shield/jump-out-of-Aura-Sphere-Charge attack for grounded opponents.​
Short landing lag makes grounded follow-ups very possible. Landing after Hit 1 and before Hit 2 can potentially combo into some grounded moves well into very high Aura/%.​
It stalls Lucario's areal momentum, and so can add another layer of air movement mixup to keep the opponent guessing.​
Frame Data
Hit 1 on frame: 4​
Hit 2 on frame: 11​
Complete in-air: 30​
Landing Lag: 12​





Grabs/Throws


Grab
Description:
Lucario reaches out and grabs the opponent. Not much else to say. Grab Range in general is shorter than in previous Smash games. Use Grab wisely.​
Frame Data
Grab (standing)
Grab on frame: 7​
Complete on: 39​
Grab (dash)
Grab on frame: 10​
Complete on: 46​
Grab (Pivot)
Grab on frame: 11​
Complete on: 42​
Grab Pummel
Move description:
Lucario injects a bit of Aura into the target, pretty quick, low damage.​
Uses:
Tack on a bit of extra damage before the throw.​
Frame Data
Hit Box on frame: ?​
Complete on frame: ?​
Forward Throw
Move description:
A simple shove forward and away, lower knockback.​
Uses:
I find it's best use is to shunt the opponent over the edge to begin a Ledge Pressure scenario.​
At pretty much any other scenario, a different throw feels like it sets up better for more threatening follow-ups.​
Frame Data
Hit 1 on: 6​
Hit 2 on: 7​
Complete on frame: 21​
Back Throw
Move description:
Lucario does a quick turnaround and bounces the opponent off the ground. Kncoks away at a somewhat low upward angle.​
Uses:
Potential Kill Throw at High Aura/High target damage.​
Good setup for follow-ups. Dash attack can often catch opponents.​
Firing an Aura Sphere after B-Throw is a very threatening option at a wide range of %/Aura.​
Frame Data
Hit on frame: 14​
Completes on frame: 35​
Up Throw
Move description:
A toss straight upward.​
Uses:
Combo/String starter, or a setup at higher%. Full Hop U-air or N-air often hits, Sometimes F-air.​
Good setup for juggling.​
Frame Data
Hit 1 on frame: 16​
Hit 2 on frame: 17​
Complete on frame: 37​
Down Throw
Move description:
Lucario slams the opponent to the ground, bouncing them up and away.​
Very High hitstun on target.​
Uses:
Potential Combo Starter at low %.​
Opponent's DI drift is more significant, making it less useful for combos beyond low%.​
Frame Data
Hit on frame: 28​
Complete on frame: 50​




Get-up Attacks


Ledge attack
Move description:
Uses:
Frame Data
Get-up Attack (Prone)
Move description:
Uses:
Frame Data
Get-up Attack (Trip)
Move description:
Uses:
Frame Data





Movement Breakdown


Running/Air Movement
Jump/fastfall
Movement techniques and uses for Lucario
Wavedash
Roll Cancel Boost Grab

(Others to add as needed)


Roll Forward
Invulnerable on Frame: 4-15​
Vulnerable on Frame: 1-3 / 16-18​
Complete on Frame: 29​
Roll Backward
Invulnerable on Frame: 5-16​
Vulnerable on Frame: 1-4 / 17-33​
Complete on Frame: 34​
Air Dodge
Invulnerable on: 3-28​
Vulnerable on: 1-2 / 29-47​
Complete in-air (Neutral): 48​
Landing Lag (Neutral): 10​
(Further lab work recommended to isolate in-air end lag and landing lag for directional air dodge)​
Spot Dodge
Invulnerable on: 3-17​
Vulnerable on: 1-2 / 18-24​
Complete on: 25​

 
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#3
Aura Mechanics

1ecaa04d1e3b38747a5ba09164df376fad51833d_hqsize.jpg


Aura Chart
Detailed Analysis



Well, you're here, looking into the defining feature of Lucario in Smash Bros. It's fairly straightforward in concept: the more damage Lucario takes, the harder Lucario hits back. But exactly how hard does Lucario hit? What differences do stocks make? How should a Lucario player adjust their combo/KO tactics based on Aura? Hopefully, those nitty-gritty questions can find some answers in this section of the guide.

Guides and official Smash Bros material say that Lucario's Aura hits it's max at 2.5x base Power at 190% Damage, but in my lab work and calculations, it comes closer to 2.45x base Power. This may be case of simple rounding up, or the 2.5 max multiplier may be from an earlier pre-release build. In any case, I've thoroughly tested the Move Power differences for Lucario's moveset at all damage levels for Lucario, and compiled the data in a handy chart here:




The numbers listed in the Aura Chart above are accurate for 1v1 damage, assuming a fresh strike in the stale move cue.
Like any other fighter, subsequent uses of the same move will reduce its damage and knockback, making the move more and more "stale" until it is kicked out of the stale move cue.

This Video by the Beefy Smash Doods goes into exhaustive detail about Stale Move Negation in Smash4. The mechanics work the same in Ultimate as far as can be observed.

In addition to how much damage Lucario has, Aura is also affected by stock differences (or score differences in a timed match). With that in mind, I've gone through and thoroughly tested the effect of stock differences on Lucario's Aura, and I've observed some intriguing and hopefully helpful properties. I find it works for me to think of it in this way:

"Basement" / "Ground Floor" / "Attic"


For the sake of convenience and easier visualization, I've made a rough but more-or-less accurate line graph of Stock differential effects on Aura's Power.​
Full explanation of the graph below.​
In any given stock, Lucario's Aura scales linearly from a "Floor" (0% Damage = 1x Power) to a "Ceiling" (190% Damage = 2.45x Power).​

"Ground Floor"
1.0x

When Stocks are even, Lucario's Aura is on the "Ground Floor" which produces the numbers listed on the Aura Chart.​


"Attic"
1.2x and 1.4x


When Lucario is one Stock behind, the base damage of all Lucario's moves increases by about 1.2x "Ground Floor" Aura, and scales up along the Aura Chart toward 190% respectively. Lucario's Aura is in the "Attic" in a sense. So any move listed on the Aura Chart can be multiplied again by about 1.2 to get the numbers for a single stock behind. However, the scale at one stock behind is cut off at around 170% Damage, the "Ceiling" is lower in the "Attic" if you're following the metaphor. If Lucario is hurt any further past 170% when one stock behind, Power is not increased. Bear in mind though, the moves still scale as if the linear progression continued to 190%, it's merely cut short at around 170%, and the scaling stops.​
When Lucario is two or more stocks behind, the damage scaling for the second stock behind is about 1.4x "Ground Floor" Aura, and all moves seem to scale linearly toward 190% like other stocks. However, the "Ceiling" is reduced again to around 120% Damage on Lucario, and won't get any more powerful from there. Incidentally, the damage there is identical to the 170% Aura attack at one stock behind.​
I tested further stocks behind, but it stops at two stocks behind.​
This means Lucario's absolute power "Ceiling" for any given move, the most powerful Lucario can potentially be, is equal to the 170% baseline damage listed on the chart, multiplied again by 1.2​


"Basement"
0.9x and 0.8x


Naturally, a similar phenomena occurs as Lucario is further ahead in stocks. The multiplier to "Ground Floor" Aura is about 0.9x and 0.8x for one and two stocks ahead respectively. Conversely, rather than the Aura cap being cut off at the top, the absolute minimum Aura Bottoms Out instead, and can't effectively go any lower than certain Damage% along the chart. When testing for what the minimum was, I noticed Lucario's move Power didn't begin to increase until about 12.5% Damage for one stock ahead, and 25% Damage for two, and it continues along a linear scale up until it reaches its maximum 190% again.​


Aura In Doubles Matches

In a doubles match, things are a bit different.​
Base Doubles Power: 0.83x
For starters, there's a Move Power reduction across the board. All damage in a Team match is about .83x base Damage in a 1v1 match. This goes for Lucario, for Mario, for Lucas, for whoever.​
Stock Aura Tracking in Doubles
In a doubles match, for the purposes of Stock Aura Multipliers, the game will keep track of Lucario's stock as one pool, and any other fighter's stocks as the other pool. This includes Lucario's teammate. Example: if Lucario is at full stocks, the fighters on the opposing team are also at full stocks, but Lucario's teammate is one stock behind, this counts as "One Stock Ahead" for calculating Lucario's Stock Aura. If your teammate loses a stock, it diminishes Lucario's Aura.​
So to calculate ahead vs behind, it's Lucario's stocks, relative to every other players' stocks.​
"Basement" / "Ground Floor" / "Attic" in Doubles
It's slightly different how Stock differential affects Lucario's Aura in Doubles, but still very similar.​
Doubles Attic 1.4x
When one or more stocks behind, Lucario's Aura uses the same 1.4x linear multiplier scale as is used for 2 stocks behind in a singles match. This includes the cutoff point at roughly 120% Damage.

Stock Aura in doubles in not calculated more than 1 stock behind.​

Doubles Basement .80x / .66x
When Lucario is leading in stocks, a similar inverse effect occurs.
When leading by one stock, Lucario's Aura uses the same .8x multiplier as if 2 stocks ahead in a singles match.
When leading by two or more stocks, the multiplier is instead .66x base doubles power.
Remember, all multipliers in a Doubles Match are relative to Base Doubles Power.​
(Some extra lab work recommended to isolate the bottoming-out Damage% of Stock Ahead Aura)​

One final note: when there is a stock loss, either for Lucario or the opponent, it takes roughly 8 seconds for the Aura to settle into its new place. This was the case in Smash4, and it is retained in Ultimate.​

There it is, I've worked pretty hard on this for nearly a week sraight after the game's release. I hope it's helpful to those using or fighting against Lucario, so they'll have a more complete understanding of the Aura mechanics. I'll also keep my chart up to date, make any adjustments if further patches adjust the Aura. If I knew my calculations were absolutely precise and completely accurate, I might add further pages to the Aura Chart that reflect Stock ahead/behind. As it stands, I feel fairly satisfied with the additional multiplier and cutoff points. Heck, if someone is feeling mathematically inclined, they might be able to extrapolate a sort of absolute "Damage Formula" from all this.

My Testing method for the data in the Aura Chat was training mode, Stale Moves: off. Stale Moves: Off in training mode produces the exact damage in a 1v1 match. Stale Moves: On will produce consistent and unchanging damage, but it is slightly weaker than a Fresh Strike in the stale move cue. From there, it was a fairly ponderous, monotonous routine of testing every move and every varying hitbox at all damage% on Lucario. The resulting Move Power of all moves at varying damage% was averaged together to get an average estimate for Move Power Multiplier.

My testing method for Stock differences was a stock vs. match. Damage% and Power was based on a fresh move in the stale cue. I tested using primarily two moves: Force Palm Command Grab and Full Charge Forward Smash Sweet Spot (larger numbers make calculations more accurate when I've only got one extra decimal place to work with). I recorded the damages done to the opponent at various Damage% to Lucario and at various Stock Differentials, and then compared the numbers to those on the Aura Damage Chart. Additional testing was done to isolate the Aura cutoff points for stock differentials.
 
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#4
Strategy and Tactics

15e3c11a25392d07ef362bef49362b65be974e41.jpg


Getting into the match



General Scenarios



Neutral


From Lewdcario:​
Lucario’s neutral isn’t anything special, so get used to that. I will also note that Lucario’s neutral might not completely apply to every matchup. Since he doesn’t have any particularly overpowering moves, he has to rely on bait tactics to land damage on the opponent. I would like to begin by stating while dash dancing appears to be a constantly ideal option to use, it is not, and tends to be overrated (not to say it isn’t good, at all). Note that when you dash dance, you are committing to fox trot constantly. The benefit to dash dancing, however, is added unpredictability if you utilize it well. Regardless, dash dancing back and forth keeps the opponent on their toes. You can use this technique to bait them towards you, then you can dash back in and punish their attempt to approach, likely with a dash attack, as it is a quick burst option. Also it is good to keep aura sphere in mind to pressure the enemy from afar. If they don’t want to approach, throw it at them, provided they do not have the means to rush you down in the small time frame, or outright beat the projectile, like Sonic. In certain matchups, Lucario may have to play very differently. In the case of sword characters, which are very strong in this iteration of the Smash Bros. series due to their overwhelming aerials, playing campy with aura sphere is most likely the way to go.


Footsies

Content Coming Soon!​



Advantage



From Lewdcario:
Lucario has a strong advantage state in which he can pressure the opponent with his aerials and projectiles. If you find yourself against an opponent who is at the edge, you can pressure them with CJC in order to force a predictable option from them. A brief demonstration can be found here. In other situations, Lucario can’t notably press his advantage- the idea is to land whatever small string you can, and back off slightly to see what their next option will be. If you overextend, you will be easily punished. How well advantage state is pushed will depend on how well you can perform reads on the opponent. A straightforward way to edge guard with Lucario is to ready a charged Aura Sphere close to the edge and shoot it so that they will be close to grabbing the edge once the Aura Sphere gets to them, consequently catching them before they grab it. Lucario can pressure off stage with Neutral Air because it is fast and has decent Knock Back Growth, which allows it to eventually kill. With the addition of being able to (double) jump out of aura sphere charge, Lucario gains a new method of edge guarding. Lucario can catch people off stage by B Reversing into them, into any aerial he desires. An example of this tactic in play can be found here.



Disadvantage



From Lewdcario:​
As with all or most disadvantage states, the goal is to try to reset back to neutral as soon as possible. An option that wasn’t really available in Smash 4 is to Up B into the enemy- as it now has a hitbox and significantly reduced endlag (60 frames -> 40 frames at worst). You can also, and more ideally, Up B away from them, to the other side of the stage. Don’t do this all the time, you can get punished for it if the enemy expected it. Lucario has top 10 aerial movement now and really strong aerial acceleration, so you can abuse this to easily out maneuver the opponent in the air. Keep in mind for landing habits though- try to mix up how you arrive back to neutral.



Pressure

Content Coming Soon!​



Camping

Content Coming Soon!​



Out of Shield Options

Content Coming Soon!​






More Content Coming Soon!
 
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#5
Match-Up Index

c049966caaed50749062fec4904e53efsize.jpg


Character Specific Analysis


:ultmario: 01 - Mario
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:ultdk: 02 -Donkey Kong
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:ultlink: 03 - Link
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:ultsamus:04 - Samus / :ultdarksamus:04ε - Dark Samus
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:ultyoshi:05 - Yoshi
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:ultkirby:06 - Kirby
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:ultfox:07 - Fox
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:ultpikachu:08 - Pikachu
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:ultluigi:09 - Luigi
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:ultness:10 - Ness
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:ultfalcon:11 - Captain Falcon
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:ultjigglypuff:12 - Jigglypuff
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:ultpeach:13 - Peach / :ultdaisy: 13ε - Daisy
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:ultbowser:14 - Bowser
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:ulticeclimbers:15 - Ice Climbers
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:ultsheik:16 - Sheik
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:ultzelda:17 - Zelda
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:ultdoc:18 - Dr. Mario
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:ultpichu:19 - Pichu
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:ultfalco:20 - Falco
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:ultmarth:21 - Marth / :ultlucina: 21ε - Lucina
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:ultyounglink:22 - Young Link
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:ultganondorf:23 - Ganondorf
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:ultmewtwo:24 - Mewtwo
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:ultroy:25 - Roy / :ultchrom: 25ε Chrom
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:ultgnw:26 - Mr. Game & Watch
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:ultmetaknight:27 - Meta Knght
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:ultpit:28 - Pit / :ultdarkpit: 28ε - Dark Pit
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:ultzss:29 - Zero Suit Samus
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:ultwario:30 - Wario
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:ultsnake:31 - Snake
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:ultike:32 - Ike
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:ultpokemontrainer:/ :ultpokemontrainerf: 33-35 - Pokémon Trainer
:ultsquirtle:33 - Squirtle


:ultivysaur:34 - Ivysuar


:ultcharizard:35 - Charizard


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:ultdiddy:36 Diddy Kong
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:ultlucas:37 - Lucas
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:ultsonic:38 - Sonic
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:ultkingdedede:39 - King Dedede
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:ultolimar:40 - Olimar
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:ultlucario:41 - Lucario
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:ultrob:42 - R.O.B.
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:ulttoonlink:43 - Toon Link
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:ultwolf:44 - Wolf
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:ultvillager: / :ultvillagerf: 45 - Villager
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:ultmegaman:46 - Mega Man
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:ultwiifittrainer:/ :ultwiifittrainerm: 47 - Wii Fit Trainer
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:ultrosalina:48 - Rosalina & Luma
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:ultlittlemac:49 - Little Mac
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:ultgreninja:50 - Greninja
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51 - Mii Brawler
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52 - Mii Swordfighter
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53 - Mii Gunner
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:ultpalutena:54 - Palutena
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:ultpacman:55 - Pac Man
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:ultrobin:/ :ultrobinf: 56 - Robin
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:ultshulk:57 - Shulk
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:ultbowserjr:58 - Bowser Jr. (& Koopalings :ultlarry::ultroy2::ultwendy::ultiggy::ultmorton::ultlemmy::ultludwig:)
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:ultduckhunt:59 - Duck Hunt
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:ultryu:60 - Ryu / :ultken: 60ε - Ken
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:ultcloud:61 - Cloud
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:ultcorrin:/ :ultcorrinf: 62 - Corrin
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:ultbayonetta:/ :ultbayonetta1: 63 - Bayonetta
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:ultinkling:/ :ultinklingboy: 64 - Inkling
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:ultridley: 65 - Ridley
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:ultsimon:66 - Simon / :ultrichter: 66ε - Richter
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:ultkrool:67 - King K. Rool
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:ultisabelle:68 - Isabelle
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:ultincineroar:69 - Incineroar
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:ultpiranha:70 - Piranha Plant
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:ultjoker: 71 - Joker
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More Content Coming Soon!

Characters whose U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Air can match it (exactly Frame 4):

:ultkirby: U-Tilt
:ultpikachu: U-Air
:ultsheik: U-Air
:ultdoc: U-Air
:ultpichu:U-Air
:ultdiddy: U-Air
:ultlucas: U-Tilt
:ultrob: U-Tilt
:ultlittlemac:U-Tilt

Characters whose U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Air can beat it:

:ultfox: U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultzss: U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultrosalina: Luma U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultryu: U-Tilt light (Frame 3)
:ultken: U-Tilt light (Frame 3)
 
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#6
Practice and Conditioning

5c8a9a43bfa4167c71eec9bd7203b3c4size.jpg


What can you do to improve your Lucario game?





Useful Techniques

B-Reverse

This video uses Smash4, but the mechanics apply exactly the same in Smash Bros Ultimate.​

From Lewdcario:​
This is absolutely required to know for any Lucario player, without exception. The following video [same as example video above] explains how to perform this technique. A good example of its usage is to drop down on platforms and reverse onto your victim. In general, it is simply a good movement tool and keeps the opponent guessing. However, do not fall into the trap of constantly using it in match. Additionally, it is generally not recommended to use this in a full hop, due to you being locked into a telegraphed position and destination.


Turnaround-B

From Lewdcario:​
This is also absolutely required to know for any Lucario player, without exception. A demonstration is available here. To execute this technique, simply begin charging aura sphere, then quickly press the other direction. This is extremely helpful in being less predictable with launching aura spheres. A common example is to run away, then turn around and launch aura sphere at them.


Wavebounce

From Lewdcario:​
While a bit more advanced, it is not necessarily as fundamentally required to know as B-Reverse. The video linked earlier covers how to perform both of these techniques. An example of using this technique is to bait out the opponent by jumping away and bouncing back into them with your aura sphere, maybe for a potential kill.


Charge Jump Cancel (CJC)

From Lewdcario:​
The following thread demonstrates this new tech well. It’s a tech that was discovered with Smash Ultimate and has interesting uses. To perform the tech, simply input jump up to 5 frames before landing with a charge, and Lucario will pocket the aura sphere and enter idle animation quickly. An ideal use of the tech is to bait the opponent. For example, let’s say you have been hitting them with aura sphere on the edge with pretty good success. Now, they’re in another recovery situation. What you can do is abuse CJC and jump up and down with aura sphere so you can effectively (but not completely) cover both grounded and aerial options out of the edge. You can scare them into jumping up from the edge, which is where you can strike them with aura sphere.


Charge Storage Cancel (CSC)

From Lewdcario:​
This tech was also discovered in Smash Ultimate, and it applies to all characters with a charge shot. A demonstration of it is available here, and a detailed version is available here. An in-depth write up is available here. To execute this tech, simply tap shield for no longer than 3 frames during an Aura Sphere charge, causing Lucario to put away the Aura Sphere and enter idle animation, skipping the shield animation entirely. This allows for Lucario to weave in and out and charge aura sphere in a minimally committal manner. It helps with baiting, too. You could, for example, dash back, input the charge cancel, and punish their attempt to go in, with maybe a dash attack, or another fast move. The idea behind using this technique is that you bait the enemy into thinking you are in an unsafe position while charging, but you are not, and can quickly punish their options. Additionally, while still being looked into, Lucario may have some interesting confirms with this, such as Aura Sphere into Chare Shot Cancel into Forward Smash.


More Content Coming Soon!
 
Last edited:

Ajani

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
85
#7
okiii so i found a cool google sheets add-on that translates SOME of the document but not most (of course) -
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/translate-my-sheet/ikbffjfknllcipddomhgdhcedikhiaga?hl=en

so i translated what i could n then just used the translator in excel really quick n ya

Translated Lucario Google Sheet-
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174ibAmaqYvI_KNLBZiC4aR-yIeFitMZRpHhuKH9HycI/edit?usp=sharing

This gentleman translated a lot of lucario frame data
 

Ajani

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
85
#9
Hey everyone, I decided to manually test and write up the frame data for all the characters in the game. I did what I could to get some data from footage of the E3 demo, but having the game in my hands allows me to get more data, and in more accurate ways. This game actually has some new features to make the process far quicker than in Smash 4. All of the data was collected from version 1.1. The goal of having these charts so early was to be prepared for the first balance patch. Smash 4's lack of patch notes really had us struggling for the first few months because nobody had the numbers to compare to until about a year after release.

Please let me know if you have any questions or want clarifications. Also you are free to use or repurpose this data as you like. No need to ask first. Of course I will also add new charts for any newly released characters.
This individual has all of Lucario's frame data. Can we please update the thread my dude?
 

Muad Dib

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
2
#10
So, the fact that you can now jump out of ASC seems to allow you to do pretty quick jump turn arounds while charging.

Along with that I've been messing around with other ASC -> Jump maneuvers like double wave bounces and other wierd stuff.

I wanted to open up discussion about the potential of this new option.

(As a side note, this mechanic is part of the reason alot of people are having trouble doing ASC->US. If you have tilt jump on and hit the stick up a little too soon you jump->U-air out of ASC. )
 

Ajani

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
85
#11
So, the fact that you can now jump out of ASC seems to allow you to do pretty quick jump turn arounds while charging.

Along with that I've been messing around with other ASC -> Jump maneuvers like double wave bounces and other wierd stuff.

I wanted to open up discussion about the potential of this new option.

(As a side note, this mechanic is part of the reason alot of people are having trouble doing ASC->US. If you have tilt jump on and hit the stick up a little too soon you jump->U-air out of ASC. )
Do you have a video of this by chance?
 

Muad Dib

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
2
#12
Do you have a video of this by chance?
Not yet. I'll have my friend film me today or tomorrow and post a clip.

The jump -> turn around B isn't the fastest thing in the world, but it's quicker and can get a shot off faster then shield canceling and turning around.

Also I could be wrong on if what I was doing was actually a double wave bounce. I know the first jump was, an I think the second one was too, but I'm not the most technical of players yet, and it might have just been a second Jump->ASC with reduced momentum.

Only tested this stuff on Cpu so far, and I personally feel like I'd have a hard time being able to use most of this in a real match(except the jump turn around), but I'm still pretty new to advanced mechanics and expect that I'll need much more practice before I can use this stuff effectively against a decent player.
 

Ajani

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
85
#13
I was looking at Lucario's frame rates a bit more into detail, the Dair Startup on Frame 4 is insane. This can helps against being juggled.

Characters whose U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Air can match it (exactly Frame 4):

:ultkirby: U-Tilt
:ultpikachu: U-Air
:ultsheik: U-Air
:ultdoc: U-Air
:ultpichu:U-Air
:ultdiddy: U-Air
:ultlucas: U-Tilt
:ultrob: U-Tilt
:ultlittlemac:U-Tilt

Characters whose U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Air can beat it:

:ultfox: U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultzss: U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultrosalina: Luma U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultryu: U-Tilt light (Frame 3)
:ultken: U-Tilt light (Frame 3)

Basically, we definitely dont want to land on top of Fox, ZSS and Ryu/Ken.
 
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Location
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#14
I was looking at Lucario's frame rates a bit more into detail, the Dair Startup on Frame 4 is insane. This can helps against being juggled.

Characters whose U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Air can match it (exactly Frame 4):

:ultkirby: U-Tilt
:ultpikachu: U-Air
:ultsheik: U-Air
:ultdoc: U-Air
:ultpichu:U-Air
:ultdiddy: U-Air
:ultlucas: U-Tilt
:ultrob: U-Tilt
:ultlittlemac:U-Tilt

Characters whose U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Air can beat it:

:ultfox: U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultzss: U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultrosalina: Luma U-Tilt (Frame 3)
:ultryu: U-Tilt light (Frame 3)
:ultken: U-Tilt light (Frame 3)

Basically, we definitely dont want to land on top of Fox, ZSS and Ryu/Ken.
I'm gonna save this in spoiler tags in the character specific post for future reference.
 

Ajani

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
85
#15
So Im trying to look at match ups for Lucario and just analyzing frame data.

:ultmario: Has insane frame work. Some of the quickest Jabs in the game and mostly buffed since Smash 4. Correct me if Im wrong but it seems that Lucario has to keep his distance and play as a projectile hero. Are you guys able to see anything else?
 
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#16
So Im trying to look at match ups for Lucario and just analyzing frame data.

:ultmario: Has insane frame work. Some of the quickest Jabs in the game and mostly buffed since Smash 4. Correct me if Im wrong but it seems that Lucario has to keep his distance and play as a projectile hero. Are you guys able to see anything else?
It doesn't feel nearly as one-sided as the frame data would lead some to believe.

Mario typically wants to get up close and personal to his target, but Lucario isn't forced to acquiesce to that gameplan, not at least not nearly as badly as was the case in Smash4. A lot of Lucario's moves will out-space Mario's, and Lucario's newfound maneuverability in Ultimate allow for a kind of precise spacing/zoning + bait/punish game that serve well in this matchup.

Playing a zoning game with Aura Sphere helps, if only to encourage the Mario player to throw capes out. In my way of looking at a match from Lucario's perspective, any time the opponent throws out a countermeasure to where they think an Aura Sphere is coming (reflector/PSI magnet/Cape/Confusion/etc.), that's a couple extra seconds of time I get to use for what I want, and is a tick in my favor. Among the kinds of players that make me the most nervous are the ones who are very judicious and precise with their countermeasures, because they're the ones paying extra close attention to Lucario's projectile game, and will typically strike back at crucial times, especially if I'm getting a bit greedy with my projectile game in the face of absent countermeasures.

Also a thing to pay attention to is True Combos vs. Aggressive Strings. If at any point during Mario's ubiquitous aggressive strings of attacks, there's a break of 4 or more frames for Lucario to act, that's enough to slip a Double Team counter in and break that string, or a D-Air if that's more appropriate. If nothing else, it'll make the Mario player think twice about diving in to a mindless walloping string, and quite possibly play more judiciously and cautiously, giving the Lucario player a little room to breathe, which is nice.

A match, any match, is as much about psychology as it is technique and technical aspects.

On a side note, I've also added some hopefully helpful notes about Extreme Speed, and how it's steering properties work.
 
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Ajani

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 14, 2018
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#17
It doesn't feel nearly as one-sided as the frame data would lead some to believe.

Mario typically wants to get up close and personal to his target, but Lucario isn't forced to acquiesce to that gameplan, not at least not nearly as badly as was the case in Smash4. A lot of Lucario's moves will out-space Mario's, and Lucario's newfound maneuverability in Ultimate allow for a kind of precise spacing/zoning + bait/punish game that serve well in this matchup.

Playing a zoning game with Aura Sphere helps, if only to encourage the Mario player to throw capes out. In my way of looking at a match from Lucario's perspective, any time the opponent throws out a countermeasure to where they think an Aura Sphere is coming (reflector/PSI magnet/Cape/Confusion/etc.), that's a couple extra seconds of time I get to use for what I want, and is a tick in my favor. Among the kinds of players that make me the most nervous are the ones who are very judicious and precise with their countermeasures, because they're the ones paying extra close attention to Lucario's projectile game, and will typically strike back at crucial times, especially if I'm getting a bit greedy with my projectile game in the face of absent countermeasures.

Also a thing to pay attention to is True Combos vs. Aggressive Strings. If at any point during Mario's ubiquitous aggressive strings of attacks, there's a break of 4 or more frames for Lucario to act, that's enough to slip a Double Team counter in and break that string, or a D-Air if that's more appropriate. If nothing else, it'll make the Mario player think twice about diving in to a mindless walloping string, and quite possibly play more judiciously and cautiously, giving the Lucario player a little room to breathe, which is nice.

A match, any match, is as much about psychology as it is technique and technical aspects.

On a side note, I've also added some hopefully helpful notes about Extreme Speed, and how it's steering properties work.
Good analysis. Have you tested much against other characters?
 
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