Attn Sonic Mains: Please Help Me In My Research Project

[Vayseth]

Hello everyone! I am currently doing a research project on Brawl for members of the smash lab. They have a couple ideas going around in there and I wanted to test a few of them out for myself. Therefore if you guys would not mind, I would appreciate it if you would help me out.

I would like you, since you know your characters better than I do (probably), to tell me in quick bullet points what the most annoying things for you to play against. I am talking about aspects of match ups that change how the match up plays out. Examples of this would be King Dedede’s standing infinite on Bowser, DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus and himself or grab releases like Marth on Ness/Lucas or Wario’s grab release shenanigans. Basically, anything match up specific where one character has a great advantage over the other character simply because of that move/moves. There’s plenty out there but I want to make sure I have them all! Please list them for me!

Thank you!

Problems:
-King Dedede's CG
-Falco's CG
-Sheik's Chain

 

[Kinzer]

Funny thing is, a lot of Sonic's matchup specific problems... can be worked around with. If I had to give a better answer though, let's take G&W and MK who would destroy a Sonic player with minimum matchup experience. They have safe/spammable moves, lots of range, little lag. Again, a lot of that junk can be worked around with by just playing patiently, but meh...

 

[Vayseth]

Like I said, specific combos or chaingrabs on Sonic that would hinder his chances in specific match ups. In the DK/D3 match up, the standing infinite makes the match up go from 6-4 or even 7-3 to 8-2 or 9-1. It's a huge difference. Anything like that would be helpful.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, if you really want something like that, then Sonic has absolutely no answer to Sheik's Chain camping under a non-moving platform like Battlefield. He has nothing that can match the range of Sheik's chain except a Spring-drop or a Dair, but a platform makes that option null.

A Sheik who can Chain-camp will make any Sonic go insane.

Otherwise no, Sonic is a fine character as he is, even though he has problems like the "air-trip" and the suicidal SDRs which can be solved by just keeping a good eye on your jump record.

 

[Browny]

I really need to see a video of that before i believe it. If I can consistently dash attack a DK from the front while they use down-b by timing the dash perfectly or grab an IASA dsmash spamming G&W I really doubt the chain cant be beaten. Of course its quite hard to move the chain and control sonic by myself lol...

 

[Vayseth]

I can see how annoying that could be, especially if they chain jacket. Hm...

 

[Kinzer]

DK's Down-B works in a ryhtme though, and is kind of easy to see coming. Not to mention DK is a big target, nothing a well-place Bair can't take care of.

 

[da K.I.D.]

any fast, high priority moves make things hard.

regardless of how much sonics will tell you otherwise, falco is a rediculous matchup. his camping with lasers and back air are stupid for sonic to get around.

if MKs could learn to time their f-airs better, that match would start getting redicoulous again.

a lot of us have problems with marths f-air.

Olimar f-smash is hard to work around with sonic.

characters with good reverse pivot grabs (yoshi, and oli) make it hard for sonic to play his game.

sonic doesnt have any really match breaking things to work with that are as bad as those infinites and stuff.

 

[Jim Morrison]

fast projectiles which do stun (are there any?)

 

[da K.I.D.]

most projectiles arent an issue except for wolf and falco lasers

cause other than those two, its easier to either get around them or just f-air through them.

thats why pika's thunderbolt is terrible

 

[infomon]

Yeah, ppl already summed it up.

Sonic's moves are full of minor unfortunate properties (air tripping, spindash second-jump data, down-B and side-B share the same stale-move count no matter what you do with them, lots of moves that have weak priority mechanics (small hitbox, too much ending lag, or w/e) making them very situational, etc.....

We do what we can to make up for the weaknesses, but KID pointed out a lot of the stuff that's really hard for us in matches.

Oh, add Wario's Bite. I know good Sonics can get around it, but it's still really stupid vs. Sonic.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic has no massively bad match-ups. The rather general thing that he does struggle with is characters with particularly strong aerial games.

Answer to Chain Jacket : Stop playing on wifi. Jesus, Tenki mentioned it, now everyone harps on about it like it's the frikin bane of Sonic. People should worry about actual troublesome things more, like Marth's Dancing Blade.

 

[JayBee]

1: Marths Dancing Blade: with this, even if Sonic mindagmes a mistake so they can approach, they can still get stabbed by this move a lot ot times. This moves alone gives marth the matchup advantage, or it would be more equal, because I dont thing spamming fairs alone can protect marth against sonic getting to him on the ground for long.

2: Metaknight's Mach Tornado: even the most DI savy have issue with this. It alone shuts down Sonic ground game, and he has to stop and run away, resetting any flow that Sonic may have had in the matchup. Most other moves can be baited and powershiled for a grab, and metas grab range is garbage.

3: ROB's Sidestep/Down Smash: Most good Sonic's can deal with his porjectile spam decently, but when they get close to punish, Rob's can spamm this move with little fear of punishment. Even if A sonci were to bait it, they'd have to be very good with spacing and timing to punish this, which is hard because if they guess wrong, they get jab and tilt locked. That's the biggest problem with ROB for me IMO.

4: Falco's Lasers: Once the get the spamming going, the game gets a lot slower for sonics. the damage is not the issue, its the stun and the speed they can spam it out. Other wise this may be a more balance matchup.

5: D3's Chaingrabs: enough said.

6: Warios Bite: crushes Spin moves, the bulk of sonics game revolves around Spin Dashes and thier versatility. you can get around it if u know its coming though...

That's all i can think of for now... maybe I'll post more later.

 

[Napilopez]

As other's have said, Sonic doesn't have any matchup breaking things, and most matchups end up being player dependant rather than actually dependant on Sonic as a character himself. I know it may sound like character bias, but I think its the truth.

I have to disagree with some stuff though, JayBee. No offense meant, just my own thoughts =P

Dancing Blade: Definitely the most annoying part of the Marth matchup, so I agree with you here. Powershielding gets you through a lot of its annoyance though, thanks to Sonic's slide. I don't think Marth has the matchup advantage, and at least 3 Sonic's will side with me on this. It's even imo.

MK: Match tornado is probably the least of your worries against MK, after shuttle loop(shuttle loop is autodestroyed by just using spring immediately after MK uses it). I don't know if you've read the Sonic vs. Shuttle Loop/Nado thread, but Sonic has several ways of countering Nado so that it becomes actually a not so good option for MK to use. Homing attack alone>nado. As a punisher, Nado is ok, but I think MK has better options to punish Sonic with. Sonic doesn't have to stop and run away, he can just run at MK and grounded spring to cancel it, or he can run at MK, jump and homing attack. I played a good MK for at least 4 hours straight last week, and Nado isn't an issue. I would say Dsmash, fair, and ftilt are much more of an issue, although they are punishable in their own right by Sonic.

ROB: Agreed about dsmash. If you whiff a grab, you will get dsmashed. Simple as that.

Falco: I don't really agree with this. Lasers are pretty simple to powershield. Because of Sonic's speed, he has to powershield much less than other chars would have to. As with MK ,I think there comes a point where lasers become rather ineffective against Sonic, so Falco won't use it for much more than punishment, in which case it isn't exactly the hardest punisher. On wifi its annoying, but offline good timing will make this little of an issue.

A much bigger issue is his chaingrab and throw followups. At low percentages, one grab can lead to about 50 damage easily. There isn't much Sonic can do to avoid that damage, expect not get grabbed.

D3 Chaingrab: Agreed. Can't be escaped at any point. Not super annoying cuz D3 is combomania for Sonic, but still, you get grabbed, you get pwned.

Wario: Bit is the same as nado and lasers, you an get around it. As a punisher, of course you'll get damaged, but the same can be said for any other move used a punisher. Nothing particular about bite.

Wario's aerial mobility is the culprit here. Sonic is grab game reliant, and a wario that remains in the air is very tough to grab. Wario's air game is also way superior.


But all of these things are still able to be worked around. Nothing matchupbreaking for you like D3s infinites.

 

[Kinzer]

Why would the Chain Jacket be a Wi-Fi only problem?

Better yet, what IS the chain jacket? I'm only aware of chain camping.

 

[Napilopez]

Why would the Chain Jacket be a Wi-Fi only problem?

Better yet, what IS the chain jacket? I'm only aware of chain camping.

Because good powershielding should get you through. I've been able to get through chaincamping shieks with powershielding either via running grabs or SibeB shield cancelled grabs(which actually have even morreee range).

 

[Kinzer]

Rawr okay, but that doesn't answer my question...

I'll see if I can get somebody who plays a mean Sheik at the tourney to help me with that field though.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I thought Chain Jacket was the thing that glitched the game?

Chain camping isn't a wi-fi only problem, it's just when you're not on wi-fi it's easier to space against. Hell, the ending lag (when he/she/it/potato is withdrawing the chain) is punishable with dash attack.

 

[Napilopez]

Chain jacketing is kinda scary:

Chain Jacket
Credits to RyokoYaksa for the discovery!

>> WARNING <<​

Performing the Chain Jacket as your first or second attack in the game may CRASH or FREEZE your Wii. Please use with EXTREME caution, as this awesome technique is too much for the Wii to handle. Do not use Chain Jacket without performing 2-3 attacks at the beginning of the match.

Use as directed.

*The latest development in Sheik's game. By performing the Chain Jacket, you can infuse the knockback of ANY Sheik move into the chain hits. So if you do a D-Smash Chain Jacket, each time the Chain hits the enemy, they'll struck with the knockback and damage of a D-Smash. Insane isn't it? Curious to see it in action? Watch... and be amazed:

Strong B-Air Chain Jacket

*The Chain Jacket works by taking the last Sheik move you performed, and then imbuing its hitbox, knockback, and damage onto the body of the Chain, unleashing the BEAST hidden within.

**Chain Jacket Facts**

- You can ONLY jacket SHEIK'S moves. You cannot jacket's Zelda's moves.
- You CANNOT jacket projectiles. (Includes Needles, ray guns, super scopes, any item that shoot a projectile)
- You CANNOT jacket Down-B (Transform). (This would be hilarious though, as Sheik would be Mr.Smith, except way cooler)
- You CAN jacket any non-projectile that can be performed by Sheik. For example, you can jacket Sheik's Home Run Smash if you'd like. Here's a video for your entertainment! http://youtube.com/watch?v=L2zDH09dXGg
- You CAN jacket grabs! Unfortunately, it only jackets the damage-- it will have no hitstun and no invisible grabs (that would just be imba XD!)
- Chain Jacket also adopts the jacketed move's damage.

- Only the body of the Chain is jacketed, the tip retains its "shock" properties.
- The jacketed portion adopts the hitbox of the move that is used. Sometimes you can hit the opponent without the Chain needing to physically touch them.
** After some testing, I noticed this wasn't always true and that there was considerable variation between some of the jacketed moves**

- Some moves cause the whole chain to become inactive, such as D-Tilt, but swinging the chain activates an invisible hitbox for the jacketed move (as though Sheik were performing it).
- Other moves, such as the U-Tilt cause the whole chain to be imbued with the Chain tips "shock" effect ON TOP of an invisible hitbox for the U-Tilt.
- Moves like F-Smash and D-Smash jacket the hitbox onto the body of the chain while keeping the Chain tip active.

Note: These variations could be due to timing of the Jacketing process. Input about your experiences with the moves would help greatly!

- If a move has two hitboxes (i.e. Strong B-Air vs. Soft B-Air), the Chain Jacket will adopt the last hitbox. For example, if you performed a B-Air, and fast-falled it before the weak hitbox took place, you will Jacket the strong hit. If you full jump the B-Air and let it complete before landing, you will Jacket the soft B-Air.
- Once jacketed, the Chain CAN be clash-cancelled like any ground attack. So if someone attacks the Chain with an equal priority attack, it will clash and the Chain will immediately end.
- The Jacket will NOT decay the jacketed move. It will simply count as Chain hits.

- Vanish can be jacketed, but only the "wind" properties at the end will be adopted and not the initial explosion that deals damage.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AoJgu8JaSVU&feature=related
- Sheik's Light Arrows (Final Smash) is the only exception to some of these rules. It takes on unusual properties and is the only "projectile" that Sheik can jacket.



** How to perform the Chain Jacket: **

1. Perform the move you would like to Jacket onto the Chain. It does NOT need to hit someone.
2. Perform a short hop and deploy the Chain JUST after you reach the apex of the hop. This does NOT have to be done immediately after Step 1.
3. If done correctly, you should see the Chain deploy "dust" come out about or slightly below Sheik's shoulders. It is also accompanied by a lower pitched Chain deploy sound.
4. Your Chain is now jacketed until you retract it.

Simpler than you thought it would be, eh? :D

 

[Espy Rose]

Why hasn't anybody mentioned Falco's chain grab on Sonic?

Seth informed me that it's impossible to escape early enough if the Falco knows their timing on the move, and it pretty much guarantees 40%, and a setup to chain into other attacks.

It's infuriating.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

No, you can't powershield through the chain as there's an answer to powershields, too. Anything Sonic can do, the Chain can stop assuming you're doing it right.

 

[Vayseth]

yeah, chain jacketing is pretty funny.

Thanks guys =)

 

[ROOOOY!]

No problem Vayseth.

If you're talking about troublesome moves/strings of attacks, you could mention the usefulness of the Spring which is basically our escape button with invincibility frames.

 

[da K.I.D.]

spring is about 75% of the reason why its so hard to combo and string hits and shut down a character like sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

Rawr, but that's only if the Falco player reads you right Puffs, Spring is like our "oh s*** I gotta get da f*** outta here!" move, otherwise if the Falco's aren't frame perfect on the timing, you can pop 4% on their sorry a**.

Also how long have we had Ryoko lurk our boards?

 

[da K.I.D.]

he probably name searches chain jacket since he came up with it and likes to explain it to people.

i know i would

 

[Espy Rose]

Rawr, but that's only if the Falco player reads you right Puffs, Spring is like our "oh s*** I gotta get da f*** outta here!" move, otherwise if the Falco's aren't frame perfect on the timing, you can pop 4% on their sorry a**.

Also how long have we had Ryoko lurk our boards?

Wrong Kinzer. It's too easy to get the chain grab on Sonic. Even with DI and mashing the Up-B, it's inescapable until around the 30-40% ish percents, where the Falco, already aware of this, will finish off with a dair or something of that like.

 

[Kinzer]

Still a %age I would prefer not to take, but okay...