Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Thread

[Sar]

Blegh, wifi is not ideal for me. My wifi is bad and it's just never been a good experience for me.

 

[-LzR-]

Wifi is still 10 times better than playing by yourself. Though the average american probably still has a 100kbps connection so no wonder.

 

[mars16]

How do we destroy jiggly?...

I am shamed of inferiority and I jus had to ask

 

[Gardex]

Push buttons

win

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

So I'm having troubles in the Lucario MU. My roommate likes to dodge a lot, which with most characters means easy punishes, but Lucario has tons of speed and distance when he dodges, plus he can combo into a tilt if they're fast enough.

What should I do when he dodges?

 

[-LzR-]

Lucarios rolls are incredibly gay. I actually don't really know how to deal with them well enough.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

It's so dang frustrating. He's my most-played MU after TL and I have no idea what to do. I don't want to overcommit to a Bair, but if I space it properly he just rolls away and Ftilts or some BS like that.

I keep telling him, "As soon as I find out what to do against roll, your ass is grass."

Might just have to ask a Lucario boarder what to do.

 

[-LzR-]

You should bair at a proper distance where he can only roll away, not towards you. This way if he does it he will eventually be backed into corner and to the ledge where you get one free dead Lucario. Obviously this is so much harder to do against Lucario than other characters, but what else can you do? Well one thing is getting the lead and forcing them to approach you, I'm pretty sure Lucario is hopeless when it comes to approaching.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

good advice. When he approaches I get really nervous, even though he has some poor options. I just don't like that AS. The better you do, the stronger he is. It's some bull.

 

[Sar]

If you play people who roll uncontrollably, spamming dsmash usually yields desirable results. Also fsmash and dash attack because the lingering hitboxes really mess with people's timings.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

If you Dsmash,, it'll miss against Lucario (unless he's stupid and rolls into it), and if you Fsmash it'll miss and he'll punish. The roll Lucario has is incredibly fast and covers a lot of distance.

From the last couple days of playing I've started playing FAR more conservative and just let him approach. If he moves in on the ground: Dtilt or grab+combo. If he comes from the air: ubB +combo.

 

[-LzR-]

Try retreating bair or nair against Lucario. If they don't roll, it hits, if they roll behind you, it hits, if they do something else, you are safe.

 

[Jebu-95]

What if they counter

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

Their counter isn't that good. They have to not only predict your attack but also predict about what FRAME you'd hit on. It has a longer warmup than marth's counter I'm pretty sure, and it certainly has a highly punishable cooldown.

 

[Shadow the Past]

one of my favorite things i ever did against a lucario was had a fully charged 0% kill bucket, dthrew him, immediately bucketed (which hits if you don't tech), he techs in the direction of the bucket and still gets hit by the very tip of it

against any other character i wouldn't have cared, but with lucario having the longest roll it just felt rewarding

 

[-LzR-]

Never do that with bucket. Always wait and react and see what they do. If they tech, don't tech or tech away, bucket, if they techroll behind you, bucket behind. It's a 100% guaranteed bucket this way.

Edit: Oh and techrolls and rolls are totally different. I think Snake has the biggest techroll.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Heavier characters generally have longer tech rolls IIRC

 

[Shadow the Past]

Never do that with bucket. Always wait and react and see what they do. If they tech, don't tech or tech away, bucket, if they techroll behind you, bucket behind. It's a 100% guaranteed bucket this way.

Edit: Oh and techrolls and rolls are totally different. I think Snake has the biggest techroll.

either way, it was still rewarding to me. but it was a friendly anyway lol. i almost never try to fill my bucket in tournament, hard not to get punished for it.

 

[-LzR-]

If you play a MU where you can, it's dumb to not go for the bucket. Even against Fox, you just need to be very careful about it, but it's always worth it if you do it carefully.
I've gotten so many kills in important matches because of the bucket.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

Bucket and Judgement have won me a few incredibly skewed MUs.

 

[-LzR-]

Our only incredibly skewed MU is probably ICs though
Anything else is winnable imo. Though no one probably agrees with me.
As you know we are midtier now so we obviously suck guys. Our character now just does less damage and can't kill at all because he is no longer hightier. Such shame.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

I worded that so incorrectly. I meant matches that were incredibly skewed against me... I'm still new to all this I suppose it's to be expected I blow it on the terminology here and there.

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah generally you don't want to use your bucket in a guess situation. It's such a fast move that you should be able to hit it at some point, so just be patient and don't force it. With that said, sometimes if you're not confident in your reaction time a dthrow to insta bucket can be pretty rewarding. I'd do that in dire/clutch situations only though.

 

[Damittom]

Yeah generally you don't want to use your bucket in a guess situation. It's such a fast move that you should be able to hit it at some point, so just be patient and don't force it. With that said, sometimes if you're not confident in your reaction time a dthrow to insta bucket can be pretty rewarding. I'd do that in dire/clutch situations only though.

Wouldn't this advice be situational. For example depending upon how strong your bucket is you should use it differently. If I have a bucket filled with Falco's laser I'm going to be using it more liberaly and not be afraid to use it. Also if at the percent where bucket braking will save you from otherwise certain death I believe forcing the bucket could be potentially more useful than dying, but again this is stock dependent. Although Alph gives good advice to hold onto the bucket in a general position. There are times when it is ok to be more liberal with the use of Bucket.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

Damittom has a point. When I play against fox and get to around 90% WHILE having a full bucket I will use it the moment I see an opening. The empty/half-full bucket is way more useful than a full one in situations like that.

 

[-LzR-]

Fox kills you from the ceiling. That's where bucket doesn't work. Your Fox example is flawed. Keep the bucket, it's the easiest killmove to land ever.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

Yeah, you're right. That's why you take Fox to stages with high ceilings.

 

[YouKnowMyFunction]

But yeah overall Fox isn't the best example.

 

[Sar]

Is our fastfall the same falling speed as our dair?

 

[-LzR-]

No, it's slower. That's why our dair slowfalls when you input a fastfall during it.

 

[Sar]

KK, thanks. I was wondering because I remember a discussion on here once about the fastest way to get back to the ground after parachute, dair or FF nair.

Also, do you know the frame window we have to make dair into the slowfall version? I know you just tap down on the cstick twice, but sometimes I think I do it too slow because it still fastfalls.

 

[-LzR-]

You can do it at any point during the dair, which is why it's so useful. Just press down whenever you want to do it. Properly done you can drop down from the ledge, dair and make it back.

 

[Sar]

Wait, so you can dair at a fast speed initially and then mid-dair you can change to the slowfall version?

Why have I never realized this?

 

[SFA Smiley]

^Dunno it's really important.

What is actually MORE important is not forgetting you still have the normal speed fast version. The real power of being able to slow it down is being able to mix it up and still NOT slow it down. I do this against MK to combat Uair. I slowfall it, then sometimes fastfall it, and mix it up so it's harder fpr them to space.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, whenever you want.

 

[Sar]

Very cool.

Another question, for those who know the frame data. Dsmash comes out on frame 15, usmash on 24. Correct me if I'm wrong, but shield drop takes 7 frames. That means that dsmash Oos is a total of 15 + 7 = 22 frames

What I want to know is if jump cancelled usmash Oos has 0 frames of shield drop lag. If that's the case, usmash Oos is only two frames slower than dsmash Oos, and the same exat speed as fsmash Oos, which is a lot better than I thought it was.

 

[-LzR-]

JC takes 1 frame to do so it's 3 frames slower. It lacks range so it sucks though.

 

[Sar]

Saying usmash lacks range is a gross understatement. That thing has a really deceptive hitbox. But you're probably right about it sucking, I can't think of many times I would be able to do an usmash Oos where the shield push would be so little. It's just nice to know that they're really similar speeds if I ever have the option of throwing either one out.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Usmash's hitbox doesn't suck.

 

[-LzR-]

It's not something you hit people in front of you OoS with. It has range, but not that much range. Use dsmash instead, it's almost as strong anyways.