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As of 3.6 complete, has Roy been overshadowed by Marth and other characters once more?

Insert Thread Title Here

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 33.3%
  • No

    Votes: 15 45.5%
  • Not enough data to answer

    Votes: 7 21.2%

  • Total voters
    33

HalcyonDays

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
191
Pretty much the title question.

What do you think? Since Aftershock (which was using Project M 3.5), featuring Sethlon Roy (1st place) and Lunchables Roy & TL (5th place), and fast-forwarding to 3.6b to 3.6c, Roy representation has fallen a bit by the wayside.

Sethlon has even been exploring secondaries (namely Mario), and even taking a break entirely to play Sm4sh Roy, while Lunchables has been drifting between characters as well in IaB, even opting for Marth rather than Roy these days.

Paragon had Lunchables, going for a TL and Roy combination, and managed to reach 33rd place.

From personal experience, I'm finding a little more practicality in Marth's playstyle (though I still play him in a Roy-ish fashion out-of-habit, but with tippers involved) and I'm wondering if Roy has been rendered a bit redundant? The more I play him, the more I get the impression that he has difficulty closing out stocks once you've reached past a certain percentage, giving your opponent more opportunities to push you far enough off-stage for a quick gimp.

Is this another repeat of Melee Marth and Melee Roy, but with a lesser gap between the two? Are there any match-ups you feel where Roy undoubtedly performs better than Marth does?

So far, this is all just my own conjecture, but what do you think?
 
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G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076
honestly i think lunchables and sethlon have been switching around with other characters to explore the game and keep it intersting for them. after sixty something IaBs i think theyre too the point where theyve explored much of what roy has to offer and want to explore the rest of the cast as well. I dont think it has anything to do with roy being overshadowed, or other characters performing better than he does.

I would still argue that he has a better tier placing than marth atm. he really doesnt have as much of a problem closing out stocks at higher percents (i know you mentioned that, but i disagree, at least in comparison to marth), and his conversions from neutral are still far more potent. he has recieved some nerfs, but theyre really just trimming nerfs. they take little potency out of his gameplay. all in all i believe that once the metagame of other characters develops, roy is going to be able to display an increased metagame as well, and you may see interest from old roy mains as well.
 

Sethlon

Smash Champion
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
2,551
Location
Dallas, Texas
honestly i think lunchables and sethlon have been switching around with other characters to explore the game and keep it intersting for them. after sixty something IaBs i think theyre too the point where theyve explored much of what roy has to offer and want to explore the rest of the cast as well. I dont think it has anything to do with roy being overshadowed, or other characters performing better than he does.
I can't speak for Lunchables, but I can say that this is very much not the case for me. If I had any shred of hope for Roy being viable to solo-main, then I would stick with him 100%, but I don't. He had rough matchups as it was, previously, and now his spread is worse across the board...the potency in attacks isn't really a big deal, but his recovery being even worse is huge. There are still matchups where he excels or does decently enough at, but way too many where he doesn't for there to be any hope for success as a solo main.

Losing at the character select screen feels like pointlessness.

I've been screwing around with other characters, but TBH I'm mostly done with serious competitive Project M.
 

4AM_Jefe

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
6
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
...but his recovery being even worse is huge
This is the biggest thing I've noticed since 3.6

I'm full on glass cannon status now, one stray hitbox with a low angle and I could be dead at 75%, even from like, Smashville center stage.

At least before I had some mixups with Up-B hangtime and a super-fast ledgedash. Now, if I'm forced low, I either try to intercept with early Up-B (so bait-able), stall with Side-B (predictable if used too often), or try to sweetspot (edgehog, bye)
 
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HalcyonDays

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
191
I can't speak for Lunchables, but I can say that this is very much not the case for me. If I had any shred of hope for Roy being viable to solo-main, then I would stick with him 100%, but I don't. He had rough matchups as it was, previously, and now his spread is worse across the board...the potency in attacks isn't really a big deal, but his recovery being even worse is huge. There are still matchups where he excels or does decently enough at, but way too many where he doesn't for there to be any hope for success as a solo main.

Losing at the character select screen feels like pointlessness.

I've been screwing around with other characters, but TBH I'm mostly done with serious competitive Project M.
Dang, hearing this from the top Roy is kind of depressing...especially since I believe PM Roy in general is the strongest variation of Roy we'll probably ever get. (Sm4sh Roy is cool, but his flaws are becoming more apparent for me.)

Was losing the up-b hang time really just enough to lower his solo viability that much? How would you adjust Roy so that he could be viable on the level of a solo main?

Well in any case, I wish you the best, but man...
 

Sethlon

Smash Champion
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
2,551
Location
Dallas, Texas
Its a combination of several things, not just the hang time. His ledge grab box is significantly lower (meaning that sweetspotting with it is more difficult, leaves you higher and easier to hit, and will not actually reach the ledge in situations where it used to). Thats one of the changes under the blanket "-Up Special (Blazer) --Altered animation and some physics to be closer to Melee" in the changelog. His ledge dash also being neutered means that its much less safe to get to the stage from the ledge, and makes that a prime position for Roy to get sniped out of his double jump and die at basically any percent.

Whether or not the changes should be is open for debate, but the combination of those three makes for a significant decrease in survivability, in a game with characters like D3 / ROB...

The natural response to being squishier in matchups that turn into wars of attrition would be to play more defensive and rely more on dashdancing to never commit...but why pick Roy to do that when Marth has a better dashdance, better recovery, and better reward for spacing safely?
 
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4AM_Jefe

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
6
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Its a combination of several things, not just the hang time. His ledge grab box is significantly lower (meaning that sweetspotting with it is more difficult, leaves you higher and easier to hit, and will not actually reach the ledge in situations where it used to). Thats one of the changes under the blanket "-Up Special (Blazer) --Altered animation and some physics to be closer to Melee" in the changelog. His ledge dash also being neutered means that its much less safe to get to the stage from the ledge, and makes that a prime position for Roy to get sniped out of his double jump and die at basically any percent.

Whether or not the changes should be is open for debate, but the combination of those three makes for a significant decrease in survivability, in a game with characters like D3 / ROB...

The natural response to being squishier in matchups that turn into wars of attrition would be to play more defensive and rely more on dashdancing to never commit...but why pick Roy to do that when Marth has a better dashdance, better recovery, and better reward for spacing safely?
Its especially frustrating, because ROB (and to a lesser extent DDD) is starting to get more and more traction as the meta develops.

He's getting more optimized, and can handle Roy with or without the recovery nerfs. Roy was a great character, but he was squishy before 3.6. Sethlon optimized the **** out of him from day 1, wrote a damn book, and Lunchables came in and pushed things even further. The jankiest thing about Roy is d-tilt\bair and how early his f-smash kills (u-air juggles don't even seem worth it anymore, if you're not super on-point). The rest of his game is just stage control, spacing, and fundamentals.

A couple slight recovery adjustments to make getting back on stage sub-100% actually possible are all he really needs. Losing the ez ledgedash sucks, but it was misaligned with every other character like him.

Possible options:

Bring back the hangtime
Move ledgegrab box back
Allow for more horizontal Blazer angles (ala Sm4sh)
 
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S£NPAI

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
162
Location
Birmingham, AL
I think a longer horizontal angle could fix a lot of things. I can't tell you how many times I've died just inches away from grabbing ledge, Roy is better than his Melee version, but with all of PMs cast being buffed it kind equalizes him back to his position in Melee. He has one of the worst recovery options in terms of Fastfallers.
 

Smolder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
124
Hi, guys. Low-level Roy here. From my perspective, I believe he is still a very viable character. (Even with the recovery nerfs) Sure, he lacks in some kill-potential on some members of the cast, but his onstage pressure along with his ability to combo just about everyone (save Jiggs) more than makes up for his lacking recovery. Sure, his grab box was lowered, his hangtime was reduced, and certain characters have an easier time edge guarding him, but he doesn't seem to have an underwhelming feeling about him. I may only get to play low to mid-level players around my region, but I've gotten to play enough high-level players to let me know that he is still very strong despite his nerfs.

On a side note: I found a nice little trick to simulate his old hangtime. I'm sure every single Roy figured this out. All you need to do is save your jump, and when they grab the ledge, jump and aim your up-B a little higher above the ledge. This will outlast any conventional roll or getup options as long as you do it right. The only problem with this strategy is that you need to have the ability to aim high. This means that any instance of sub-optimal DI will make this strategy useless, because you will be forced to use your jump just to obtain a sweetspot.

Oh, and I'm testing out using the C-stick to angle his up-B in ways that would let him do a horizontal fall to the ledge. Not sure how useful this could become, but it's worth looking into at least.
 

666blaziken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
419
I can't speak for Lunchables, but I can say that this is very much not the case for me. If I had any shred of hope for Roy being viable to solo-main, then I would stick with him 100%, but I don't. He had rough matchups as it was, previously, and now his spread is worse across the board...the potency in attacks isn't really a big deal, but his recovery being even worse is huge. There are still matchups where he excels or does decently enough at, but way too many where he doesn't for there to be any hope for success as a solo main.

Losing at the character select screen feels like pointlessness.

I've been screwing around with other characters, but TBH I'm mostly done with serious competitive Project M.
If you had to buff something about roy to make him viable again, what would it be? I really like watching you play pm roy and taking him to top level play, so it's a shame you aren't playing anymore. Like obviously his recovery needs to be better because roy just dies a lot, but I wouldn't want the hangtime of 3.5. I would want roy's up b to be faster (almost if not equal to the speed of marth's) so it's impossible to react solely by sound, but what do you think?
 
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