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"Approaching with Link" A Boy Scouts Questions About Camping.

BairJew

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SO just started messing around with Link a few months ago and for some reason found he has a great feel but after playing around with some friends I am questioning the tactics i've been using.

Entering the play always with a bomb in hand and frequently using boomerang and bob to basically any aerial except maybe back air are usually great combo starters (I could be wrong). Also, love the use of grabbing and Utilt repeatedly with either Uthrow or Dthrow at low %. However, it seems I have trouble approaching and get crazy punished when I SP with bombs and SHFFL'd nairs or fairs. Any experienced Links out their have any tips which usually help the approaching game with ness and any good combo starters would love the help.
 

Cherished Doll

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There is a variety of ways to approach and it varies with the character u play against.

well what my boyfriend (J666) usually does is approach with a BOMB and Nair. Its hard to approach Falco because lasers.
Samus for example u can Nair her missles and approach her

Combo starters on a spacey that is around 50%/60% grab to upthrow dashattack and then be creative with attack depending on the DI

:phone:
 

BairJew

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Bomb to nair is a very good approach, however you usually have to depend on hopefully pokin their shield or landing behind it but still very smart I like it.
 

BairJew

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Yeah, very good statement there.

How about SHFFL'd fairs? or camping ledges with bombs, boomerangs, and nairs?
Is that a better option than approaching in most situations?
 

BRLNK88

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There is a variety of ways to approach and it varies with the character u play against.

well what my boyfriend (J666) usually does is approach with a BOMB and Nair. Its hard to approach Falco because lasers.
Samus for example u can Nair her missles and approach her

Combo starters on a spacey that is around 50%/60% grab to upthrow dashattack and then be creative with attack depending on the DI

:phone:
Tell J666 just how lucky he is his girl is a competitive smasher...
 

dablackpacman

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^^ Right, pro status on ya girl on point wit her smash game

As for Link's approach, dont rely on his bomb to approach. more as a utility to keep ur opponent from approaching. Nair's are effective given that the hit box grows as the character is in. But kno wat moves have priority. Niar beats most projectiles but attacks like fox/falco n falcons nair have a lot of priority. kno that ur dsmash n utilt cancel alot of attacks n then u can up-b after or watever ur mind thinks of
 

MALVM MALVM

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For approaches I usually go for rangs followed up with a tech chase or SHFFL fair. Bombs are amazing for being a richard and blocking approaches. All I've gotten out of the Falco match-up is "ban FD" go on whatever horizontal level he isn't. This usually means being on platforms, which is bad, but it's still better than getting lasered and getting comboed on.
 

BairJew

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Okay awesome so basically I always want to be on platforms or on a different level than my opponent when playing link and just wait for their mistakes and approach with SHFFL'd Nair or whatever seems like and appropriate punish at the time?
 

Problem2

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The advice to be on a platform is pretty character specific. You want to be on a different level when facing Falco, but say versus Captain Falcon, you want to be on the bottom most platform. He'll get you with his u-air -> knee combos if he's allowed to get underneath you safely.
 

Skeith

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Okay awesome so basically I always want to be on platforms or on a different level than my opponent when playing link and just wait for their mistakes and approach with SHFFL'd Nair or whatever seems like and appropriate punish at the time?
Personally for spacies, I feel that Battlefield would be a good place to go since you can easily attack/gimp them outside/edge of the stage since there isn't much anywhere to go when they're recovering; Also remember to use the platforms to avoid Falcos' lasers. You can also check on Sklers' guide for helpful tips.
 

MALVM MALVM

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I'm liking this battlefield idea a lot. On BF, they can't slide up the wall and edgetech. As we found out in great detail with the KJ64 discussion, however, there is more to spacies than edgeguarding. I'm still liking the slants on KJ64 to screw with their fancy wave shining, but idk. I just go Dreamland against almost everything. Comments on the faults or merits of Dreamland anyone?
 

BairJew

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KJ64 is a good stage to pick? I thought you are unable to grapple on that stage and its also difficult to sweetspot the ledge in general? I could be wrong though, I just highly highly highly dislike that stage I find it very hard to combo on as a lot of character have very various options when recovering due to the odd platform set up. Would Brin or Poke be any good as CP's?
 

McNinja

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I would imagine Brin being bad. For two reasons, 1. it's too small to camp on. 2. You can't grapple the ledge (same as KJ64). Only positive thing I can think of is that Falco can't camp with lasers as much.
 

Van.

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Falco is the strongest camper in the game on KJ64.

His vertical movement is unparalleled, he can reach the top platforms with one jump, can quickly illusion to the opposite platform in a pinch, and has bair.

I doubt link can outcamp falco on KJ64, tho' he prob can on most other stages.

I don't know about fox, but I see more pros against him on KJ64, like upsmash/upair taking forever to kill, him being slightly lesss good at camping there.
 

MALVM MALVM

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Only positive thing I can think of is that Falco can't camp with lasers as much.
Duckpimp just wrote an essay on how well Falco can control Brinstar if he can vary the hight of his lasers.
As for KJ, Falco may be able to laser the peanuts out of you, but I don't see him following up well. If he full jump trip lasers, I don't see him being safe even if he hits you with two. If you want to talk recoveries, look at the stuff in the Q&A thread. We had a good bit of fisticuffs about KJ there starting at about post 822 when I brought it up.
You can see that I kind of lost. Horribly.
I feel like Falco is the best camper in the game everywhere.
Maaaaybe YL on some things.
I think what we can all agree on for Falco in terms of stages is "not FD".
 

BRLNK88

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Duckpimp just wrote an essay on how well Falco can control Brinstar if he can vary the hight of his lasers.
As for KJ, Falco may be able to laser the peanuts out of you, but I don't see him following up well. If he full jump trip lasers, I don't see him being safe even if he hits you with two. If you want to talk recoveries, look at the stuff in the Q&A thread. We had a good bit of fisticuffs about KJ there starting at about post 822 when I brought it up.
You can see that I kind of lost. Horribly.
I feel like Falco is the best camper in the game everywhere.
Maaaaybe YL on some things.
I think what we can all agree on for Falco in terms of stages is "not FD".
Falco is the overall best camper, YL is better at camping certain characters like Puff, but otherwise his camping is too slow. Far fewer frames for pewpew than a bomb or boomerang.
 

BairJew

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Question is if i'm not playing a spacey and say for example I am playing shiek or maybe marth would either of those stages be good options to pick?
 

McNinja

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Duckpimp just wrote an essay on how well Falco can control Brinstar if he can vary the hight of his lasers.
As for KJ, Falco may be able to laser the peanuts out of you, but I don't see him following up well. If he full jump trip lasers, I don't see him being safe even if he hits you with two. If you want to talk recoveries, look at the stuff in the Q&A thread. We had a good bit of fisticuffs about KJ there starting at about post 822 when I brought it up.
You can see that I kind of lost. Horribly.
I feel like Falco is the best camper in the game everywhere.
Maaaaybe YL on some things.
I think what we can all agree on for Falco in terms of stages is "not FD".
Of course Falco can still camp. I mean, its Falco. He's amazing at camping on every stage. I would just imagine that he wouldn't be able to camp AS MUCH as other stages just due to the small size of the stage. Falco is still great on Brinstar, he just can't camp as much.

:phone:
 

BairJew

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Of course Falco can still camp. I mean, its Falco. He's amazing at camping on every stage. I would just imagine that he wouldn't be able to camp AS MUCH as other stages just due to the small size of the stage. Falco is still great on Brinstar, he just can't camp as much.

:phone:
So anyways back to my previous question about what if the matchup does not involve a spacey. Would the situation for a CP change to a different stage say against Puff, Shiek, Marth, Falcon, etc.
 

MALVM MALVM

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I think there are six different characteristics of stages. First, there's orientation of the stage, whether it's horizontally or vertically oriented. Second, there's blast radius, or how far the blast lines are from center stage. Third, the size, or how the area of the surfaces upon which characters can land. Fourth, the edge shape. Fifth, the platform heights. Finally, we must consider the stupid random stuff which comes with every stage.

Horizontal vs. Vertical:
A horizontal stage is one where the floor (the bottom most platform which cannot be fallen through) is very wide whereas the platforms do not reach proportionately high. FD is the perfect example of a horizontal stage because it doesn't have platforms. It's just the floor going from one end to the other. Perhaps the most vertical is Kongo Jungle 64 because of it's super-high platforms. Let's just leave Rainbow Cruise out of this for now. Here are the neutrals from horizontal to vertical: FD, then Dreamland, Battlefield, Yoshi's, and FoD. CPs: PS (normal, skipping the transformations), then Corneria, Brinstar, and KJ. I'm skipping Rainbow Cruise because it's a little funky. I really can't remember the CPs and am too lazy to look them up. This is important to understand because some characters like to have more aerial involvement than others. Roy, for example, hates leaving the ground. His aerials stink. As for Jiggs, she wants to be able to fly all over everywhere and be able to renew her five jumps on whatever platform wherever she likes. Roy wants a horizontal stage where Jiggs wants a vertical one. These are the two extremes (except maybe Falco might be a better example of horizontal favoritism, but you said no spacies) and everyone else falls somewhere in between based on the matchup. Link has to adapt to what type of camping will hurt the other player the most and pick orientation accordingly.

Blast Radii:
In smash, you die when you cross the blast lines. Therefore, if you want everyone to live longer, widen the blast lines. If you want deaths quicker, tighten the blast lines. Here, we introduce survivability. Link is heavy so he doesn't get hit as far as most of the other characters, has a long, varied recovery, and has an average falling speed so he neither falls too quickly to recover nor gets hit too high to come back down. In other words, Link can live for a very, very long time. Who can't live for a long time is Falco. He's a fast faller, so if you get him off the edge low, he's sunk. Therefore, Falco is very gimpable where Link is not so much. Having wide blast lines means that people with good survivability will be able to live for longer, but people with lousy survivability won't be as able to live longer because too far is too far on any stage. Therefore, if you're shooting for survivability, go for stages with wide blast radii. If you're looking for early kills, go for smaller stages. Link wants to take YL to a small stage so his superior range and power will kick YL off before the little brat can do much camping damage, so he's a bit of an exception.

Size:
Different stages have different sizes. This can be because they are wide or because they are tall or because they are both. From larges to smallest: Dreamland, FD, Battlefield, FoD, Yoshi's. Please note that stage size is independent from blast radius, thought the two usually correlate. FoD is a small stage with a large blast radius. Characters with close quarters attacks with a long reach such as Ganondorf or Marth want a small stage whereas characters with better mobility or campability want bigger stages. Link is a campy little so-and-so against the dorf, so he wants a huge stage so he can run away and rang. Against YL, who can move much more quickly than Link and can spam projectiles better than Link can, Link wants to go to a tiny stage like Yoshi's so his superior reach and power can give him an edge. Falcon and Fox have great mobility, so they're both aiming for big stages, even though they can't camp with projectiles. In stead, they camp by running in and out of your zones waiting for you to throw out the wrong attack so they can run in and punish.

Platform Height:
Low platforms mean wavelands. High platforms mean aerials. Ganondorf relies on wavelanding for mobility, so he wants fairly low platforms like on PS. Link likes his nair, so he wants high platforms like on Dreamland. Platform height from tall to short: DL, BF, FoD, Yoshi's, FD. Marth and Roy can slide all over everywhere and their f-smashes and u-tilts can go right through most platforms.

Edges:
Having no edges means that teather recoveries don't work and that edgeteching is impossible. BF has teatherable and techable edges, but both recovery techniques are more difficult.

Random Shiz:
- Samus can perfectly SH missile cancel smash missiles on PS
- M2 can spin you underneath the overhang on BF
- Randall
- Marth and Roy's f-smashes don't reach through DL's platforms, but their u-tilts do
- Teh bukkit on KJ64
- There are some platforms on Rainbow Cruise which you can fall through and others you can't. KNOW WHICH ONES ARE WHICH
- Samus has an unlimited vertical recovery on FoD

Therefore, different characters with different movesets and metagames will like different stages against different people for different reasons. See Skler's guide for specifics on individual CPs.

TL;DR: Yes, yes CPs are different for different characters.

Also, how does Marth=Falco and since when do birds like pies?

Edit: Post # 40! Yay!
 

BairJew

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So which stage in your opinion would be a suitable choice against puff when playing link that allows you to either: (a) Camp the shnutz out of her. or (b) riskily and dangerously try to almost get a hit in. THe problem being in this decision making process that puff wrecks on DL and FD basically any massive stage for space is AMAZING for puff, yet, it is also the best for link. Due to his small approaching choices basing most decisions off of risky predictions and hopeful guessing you cant accurately and safely approach and basically have to force and approach from your opponent or bait them into one. So therefore is the Puff vs. Link MU really bad when including into the MU the choices of Stages and CP's leaving Link with quite small a selection and choice with what to do.

I already knew most of this about the 6 basic factors which come into play during a CP or for any stage in that case. I was just trying to analyze specific CP's for Link and see what MU's which aren't in his favor could become in his favor with a proper CP and appropriate choice.

Also Search Borntopoop, it was a hilarious thread.
 

MALVM MALVM

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Jiggs rules the air, but Link can definitely contend with that. Link needs a big stage so his projectiles can have a greater effect. Yes, Jiggs does like DL and FD, but in this MU and many more, Link likes them more.
 

BairJew

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^ Are you sure about this? I know YL ***** Puff on FD and has potential to do so also on DL. However it would seem that Puff has a definable huge advantage over Link on both DL and FD, especially FD, no ledges for link to camp on at all. This makes me wonder whether YS would be a better choice for LInk just do to small enclosure and allows his moves to have more priority as well as slightly more camping possibilities.
 

MALVM MALVM

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YS is too small for the rang to come out in time IMO. Jiggs is pretty slow and has good control over the air; that's why she wants the huge stages. Link is slower but can have better aerial control if he can get the rang and bombs out. Jiggs' aerial mobility is too good to allow rangs or bombs to be useful. Therefore, I'd take Jiggs to FD or DL for the same reasons YL would.

Edit: Actually, maybe not DL. Maybe. Someone break the tie please....
 

Problem2

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I would disagree with DL because Jiggs just lives too long, but I do like both Yoshi's Island and Final Destination when versing Jigglypuff. However, you kind of have to play differently on those stages.
 

BairJew

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^ This is what I thought, it seems I do moderately better on Yoshis and FD when I'm playing against jiggs, I don't know why DL would be a good choice at all.
 

BRLNK88

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I've concluded that Brinstar is a great counterpick vs Marth with Link.
I've taken the two best Marths in Texas there in back to back tournaments and done quite well (AustinRC and Broly).
 
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