Apology to Kirby players

skellitorman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
319
#1
Although I promised to fix Kirby once I have entered the PMDT, I was not accepted, and so I cannot fulfill my promise. For this I apologize to you all.

I was going to surprise you all with a fully functional Kirby that I redesigned, but unfortunately that will never come to be.

Since I am quitting, my gift to you all will be my work in progress, although I couldn’t complete it (including some very important changes) due to being unable to program the rest of the changes (such as inhale or the copy abilities). I have tested this build for some time now receiving almost entirely positive feedback from players of varying levels including the top players at the local community such as:

"Wow, makes more sense now." "Way more balanced!" "Is way more fun to play as!" "More fun to play against now. Doesn't feel gimmicky or cheap."

I may hang around here for a few days, but I have officially quit PM entirely, and I doubt I will ever get back into it. I have found my input to be constantly ignored by those I was trying to communicate with, and so I am done with trying to support this game.

Nevertheless, I hope you all enjoy this build!

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Directions for using this Kirby build:

Step 1: Download both the “FitKirby.pac” file AND the “FitKirbyMotionEtc.pac” file here:

Kirby file: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=90067203467780091913

Kirby moveset file: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=42619110371910320273

Step 2: Open the “projectm” folder in the SD card.

Step 3: Open the “pf” folder.

Step 4: Open “fighter” folder.

Step 5: Open the “kirby” folder.

Step 6: Copy and paste both the “FitKirby.pac” file AND the “FitKirbyMotionEtc.pac” file in the “kirby” folder.

Step 7: When asked to copy and replace these files, select “yes.”

Step 8: Enjoy!
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Ideal Kirby for PM

The goals of these changes are to remove the attributes on Kirby’s toolset that are perceived as too good while truly not assisting Kirby well (particularly at top level) in covering for the attributes that they were designed to cover for. In turn these changes will allow for fundamental skills to be properly rewarding. Essentially, Kirby will no longer be seen as “cheap” in any way (aside from maybe being small and having multiple jumps), and will finally have the tools to be played fundamentally solid (like a normal Melee character that doesn’t need to rely on “gimmicks”) in comparison to the current build of 3.6.

Note: Since I was using 3.6b as a base, the Final Cutter spike glitch is still there, and Kirby’s roll/spotdodge are unchanged.

Normal color= This is either a fix of some kind, or a change that is both a significant buff and nerf, or some form of compensation change that was made with another change.

Red= This change is overall a nerf, but either a healthy nerf, or a nerf made as compensation for another change.

Green= This change is overall a buff that is aimed almost entirely for functionality.

Bold= This has been successfully implemented in my build. This has also been tested at varying levels. Bolded red changes are darker. Bolded green changes are darker.

PART 1 OF CHANGES: ESSENTIAL CHANGES TO FIX BASE FUNCTIONALITY


1. The angle of Forward Air’s 1st and 2nd hit are changed from 75/60 -> 290/290.

2. Down tilt angle now changed from 20 -> 0.


3. Aerial Hammer
1. BKB of the sweetspot is now decreased from 65 -> 40.
2. Startup is now decreased from 17 -> 14.
3. The second swing is now deleted.
i. The new single swing aerial hammer now has 19 frames of recovery.
ii. The animation is cleaned up as necessary. (Not sure if my animation is good enough. One of the arms isn’t as far over, but otherwise is more or less the same.)
iii. The attack swipe effect has been removed to reflect the significant difference in power to the grounded version.

1. The grounded version now sets the opponent aflame as a reference to the powerful hammer swing in Kirby’s games which can only be used on the ground. This is only a visual change.
4. Now can no longer turn around after startup.​

4. Mobility
1. Jumps are now decreased from 6 -> 5. Other jumps are not compensated.
2. Short hop vertical velocity is now decreased from 1.58 -> 1.3.

3. Run speed is now increased from 1.5 -> 1.7.
4. Dash speed is now increased from 1.5 -> 1.7.
5. Aerial mobility is now increased from .04 -> .09.
6. Aerial speed is now increased from 1.0 -> 1.1.

5. Up smash is now active one frame sooner to match the animation better and to prevent Up smash from missing at point blank.

PART 2 OF CHANGES: THESE CHANGES ARE TO BALANCE OUT HIS NEW DESIGN THAT IS NOW FUNCTIONAL. THEY MAKE THESE MOVES MORE “MELEE” LIKE.

6. Dash attack
1. Now can no longer fall off a ledge.
2. The attack’s distance traveled while active is reduced by about 40%.
1. Animation is adjusted to decrease forward movement.
2. Active frames are reduced from 8-31 -> 8-17.
3. Recovery frames are increased from 15 -> 21.

4. Total frames are reduced from 46 -> 38.
3. Dash attack now functions more like a normal dash attack:
1. The two hitboxes on frames 8-12 now have the following stats:
a. BKB: 85
b. KBG: 70
c. Damage: 10
d. Size: 3.69
2. The two hitboxes on frames 13-17 now have the following stats:
a. BKB: 45
b. KBG: 90
c. Damage: 6
d. Size: 3.28

7. Cutter Dash
1. Cutter Dash now puts Kirby in free fall.
1. Cutter Dash now takes away all of Kirby’s jumps when hit out of it.
2. Cutter Dash comboability is decreased
1. Cutter Dash BKB is increased from 20 -> 150.
2. Cutter Dash KBG is decreased from 115 -> 0.
3. Cutter Dash Angle is increased from 70 -> 90.
3. Cutter Dash now can no longer be land canceled.
4. Pressing “A” after activating Final Cutter (on frames 2-20) will now make Kirby perform Cutter Dash.

1. Cutter Dash now has a 19 frame startup animation (active frame 20).
a. The animation looks more like the previous startup of Cutter Dash (frame 21-22 of 3.5 Final Cutter) and is adjusted from there. Something like charging a smash attack utilizing frame 21-22 (of 3.5 Cutter dash) as a base. Basically it should look like the previous Final Cutter but in a different pose for the startup, then it should go into the swing forward and then the dash forward.​
5. Cutter Dash hitboxes during the last 7 active frames are now removed to match the animation.
1. Kirby can now grab the ledge with Cutter Dash 7 frames sooner.

8. Stone
1. Aerial Stone now no longer has armor during startup.
2. Ground Stone and aerial Stone now can no longer be canceled in the air. (This has only been simulated by forcing Kirby to the ground in my build)
1. Ground and aerial Stone now automatically transforms back to Kirby the frame after it touches the ground.​
3. Aerial Stone now can no longer move horizontally during the startup.
4. Now can no longer move during the recovery of ground and aerial Stone.

1. The animation of Stone’s recovery is adjusted so that Kirby is now grounded and can act immediately after the recovery. (This has almost been implemented. It looks nice, but for some reason after frame 30 it immediately becomes airborne for 1 frame and then lands on the ground as opposed to being grounded and able to move on frame 31.)
2. Kirby should not be allowed to platform drop during recovery.
3. Kirby should have his recovery canceled if pushed off a platform during recovery.​

9. Final Cutter
1. Final Cutter now can no longer grab the ledge backwards during the spike active frames. (I have almost implemented this, but it still functions on the first active spike frame.)
2. The rising hitbox active frames of Final Cutter are now cleaned up to better match the animation while still maintaining good functionality.
1. Hitbox id 0: X: 7 -> 10. Y: 3.5 -> 7. Hitbox id 1 and 3 are both deleted.
2. Trajectory of the 2nd hitbox of the rising Final Cutter is now equivalent to the other. It decreased from 90 -> 80.
3. The rising hitbox’s active frames of Final Cutter are now increased from 23-24 -> 23-27 to better match the animation.
4. Final Cutter’s spike hitbox now becomes active 4 frames sooner to match the animation.

10. Inhale (part 1)
1. Inhale is changed so that Kirbycide is significantly weaker, but Starshot and Copy will now become functional and rewarding options:
1. Opponents that successfully break out of inhale while holding upwards previously released sideways. Now they will be released as if they were grab released diagonally upwards.
2. Kirby will now enter free fall after performing the following in the air and cannot grab the ledge until 6 frames after entering freefall:

1. Inhale (even if the opponent breaks out).
2. Starshot
3. Copy (This one requires testing that I couldn't do.)
2. Opponents inside of Kirby's stomach can no longer move Kirby while they are breaking out.
3. The landing animation (with an opponent in Kirby's stomach), is now reduced from 30 -> 4.
PART 3 OF CHANGES: THESE CHANGES ARE MAINLY BUFFS THAT ARE DESIGNED TO MAKE HIM A SOLID COMPETITIVE PM CHARACTER

11. Inhale (part 2)
1. Starshot
1. The opponent can no longer cancel the Starshot star animation.
2. Starshot damage is now increased from 10% -> 15%.
2. Copy
1. After being copied, the opponent now stays as a star for 18 frames continuously moving upwards throughout the duration of being a star (Kirby will now be +1), and they no longer can cancel the star animation.
2. Copy damage is now increased from 3% -> 15%.
3. Copy abilities are addressed (in part 4 of changes).

12. Throws
1. Up throw
1. Damage is now increased from 7% -> 10%
2. KBG is now increased from 78 -> 85.

3. Angle is now increased from 85 -> 95.
2. Forward throw
1. Damage is now increased from 4% -> 10%.
1. KBG is now decreased from 120 -> 70.
2. Angle is now decreased from 64 -> 60.
3. Back throw
1. Damage is now increased from 8% -> 11%.
1. KBG is now decreased from 50 -> 40.
4. Down throw
1. KBG is now increased from 50 -> 80.
2. Angle is now decreased from 50 -> 45.

PART 4 OF CHANGES: THESE CHANGES ARE CHANGES TO HIS COPY ABILITIES TO COMPLETE THE CHARACTER.

13. I couldn’t figure out how to access the copy abilities and wasn’t able to change them. So I wasn’t able to fix any of them or even work on them. So my ideas won’t be listed here for those reasons. However, these changes would have to meet the following criteria:
1. The ability gained has to be a move that helps Kirby in the MU (in varying degrees to account for the variance in MU difficulty) while also being a fair trade off for his command grab (inhale).
2. The ability has to be a move that is not an exceptional problem if used in teams.​
 
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skellitorman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
319
#3
Sorry to hear you're quitting. Any chance you have a list of changes? I won't be able to play for a couple of days and I'm curious
I do have a list of changes that is rather long, but I'd really want to see people's first impressions. Also certain changes might seem strange without trying it out first and seeing how it works as a whole.

I will post the changes sometime this week though.
 
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Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
52
#5
Don't really have a spare SD card and don't really want to mess with my current one right now. Is anyone willing and/or able to post footage of these changes?
 

Shenanigan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
183
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
#7
This will be fun... although I'll have a hard time telling what's real from what's a placebo. LOL
I did a quick look through on PSA, here's what I found:

  • Dash Initial Velocity increased from 1.5 to 1.7
  • Dash & Run Terminal Velocity increased from 1.5 to 1.7
  • Hop V Initial Velocity decreased from 1.58 to 1.3 (Pretty sure this means a lower / quicker shorthop)
  • Air Mobility A increased from 0.4 to 0.9
  • Maximum H Air Mobility increased from 1 to 1.1
  • Jumps decreased from 6 to 5
  • Dash attack changed a lot, it now has a strong hit and a weak hit, less active frames, and slightly more endlag
  • The angle on the first two hits of fair were changed (presumably to combo into the last hit better? I'm not sure I never had problems with that in the first place)
  • Throws were all changed in some way, but I don't know exactly how to interpret throw attributes. I think damage was increased on forward, back, and up throws, while the angles changed on all four throws
None of this is guaranteed to be accurate in any way, shape, or form because I'm no PSA expert. Some of skellitorman's changes are not as easy to interpret at the PMDT's original work due to the way he wrote them. They collectively appear to make Kirby a stronger character, but I can't and won't comment on whether they make him better designed / more fitting with the PMDT's design philosophy without playing the changes first (I also don't really think Kirby is poorly designed right now, but that's another issue entirely)
 
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Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
584
Location
Dream Land
#8
As long as it doesn't include anything crazy like 3.0 Inhale/Dash Attack/Stone/Cutter Dash/D-Throw, I doubt it would violate their standards.
 
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KinGly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
373
Location
Bossier City LA
#9
As long as it doesn't include anything crazy like 3.0 Inhale/Dash Attack/Stone/Cutter Dash/D-Throw, I doubt it would violate their standards.
What was crazy about 3.02 stone? I don't have a great memory of 3.02 kirby

Anyone else call it box btw? I almost always call it box lol. I was honestly confused when I re-read my post
 
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Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
584
Location
Dream Land
#10
It had some kind of armor during its entire startup, and Kirby could drift a lot more when popping out of it. Basically a get-out-of-jail-free card for anytime he got juggled.
 

KinGly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
373
Location
Bossier City LA
#11
It had some kind of armor during its entire startup, and Kirby could drift a lot more when popping out of it. Basically a get-out-of-jail-free card for anytime he got juggled.
Oh the growing armor. It went from light to medium to heavy I believe. I didn't know that got changed.
 

skellitorman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
319
#12
I think you're jumping the gun here. A rejected application to join the pmdt doesn't mean we're deaf to your ideas - my thoughts on bowser were being used many months before i was formally admitted.

I'll take a look at your build when i get a chance.
I really wanted to help PM be the best game it could be and took it upon myself to do all of this hard work. However, in general it feels like my posts that I spend a lot of time writing are generally ignored, even when attempting to communicate with PMDT members.

So I thought I should redirect my efforts into entering the PMDT so that I could address the necessary components then. I thought I was well qualified for the position in terms of knowledge, ability, and dedication. Many had confidence that I would be a great asset and supported me. Feeling quite confident in my work, I made promises to the Kirby community earlier which I was unfortunately not able to keep, and thus I apologize to them for this. I just didn’t realize how important being well known was (and placing well at majors), and being well known is not something I’m interested in.

If this build is actually appreciated, then great. It was my gift to you all. I did spend months making it (I did a ton of research and testing). Either way, I just feel like I'm wasting my time here, and so I will move on to spend my time elsewhere, where the hard work I do is actually meaningful.

They collectively appear to make Kirby a stronger character, but I can't and won't comment on whether they make him better designed / more fitting with the PMDT's design philosophy without playing the changes first (I also don't really think Kirby is poorly designed right now, but that's another issue entirely)
I just posted the changes here (in the OP) since you really wanted to know (and to prevent you from wasting time) and you already did post some of them, so I might as well. I really like hearing first impressions, but I just want to be done here already. It really doesn’t matter at this point.

Since I was using 3.6b as a base, the Final Cutter spike glitch is still there, and Kirby’s roll/spotdodge are unchanged. Also keep in mind that this build is incomplete, and I posted some of the important changes that I couldn’t make (most of which I simulated during testing in terms of nerfs, such as being in free fall after Cutter Dash).

Also although I would give detailed explanations normally, or debate anything, I just don’t care anymore. Like I said in the OP, I’ll hang around here for a few days, and then I’m gone.
 
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Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
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#13
After playing through your build and reading everything else you want to change about Kirby, I can easily say that the PMDT needs to incorporate or address (address meaning meeting somewhere in the middle) 95% of these changes, and possibly a few more. There are a few changes I disagree with, or wouldnt change as much but that doesnt really matter; I did write down most of the changes that I would make... our lists are VERY similar.

Everything in part 2 is virtually exactly the same. In Parts 1 and 3, there are some changes (mobility and damage) that I didnt take as far as you did, but obviously needed to be implemented into PM. Some changes that you listed are things I didnt even think of and are very needed adjustments imo.

Hopefully the PMDT looks at your list as someone who obviously has superior knowledge than anyone in the DT about Kirby and considers a massive design change using stuff from this thread; instead of disqualifying most of your changes because you're not a known top PM Kirby player, and/or you dont place well in tourney, and/or thinking "Kirby is fine, he doesn't need these changes" (as they list 50% of the changes lol).
 
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skellitorman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
319
#15
I’m not really going to go much into this but it’s important to note that certain changes might seem strange without trying it out first and seeing how it works as a whole. Certain changes might still be hard to understand after trying it, but I guarantee you that there are very intricate and extremely important reasons for them that include MU balance against the entire cast.

In particular, all the changes in part 1 (the essential changes) are bare minimum changes to fix functionality against the entire cast (basically they normalize all the important factors necessary for Kirby to compete at top level). I cannot stress more how important the reasons for all of those changes are; including the exact numbers (aside from the Up Smash change which is still important). This is why run/dash speed had to be at least 1.7 as opposed to 1.6. This is also why Hammer was changed the way it was (not including the visual changes which I felt just made sense for the character).
 
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skellitorman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
319
#17
Am I going insane or does this make kirby smaller?
Not going to say your going insane, but Kirby wasn't made to be smaller unless I somehow made him smaller without knowing it (which would indeed be crazy).

There should be no unlisted changes aside from Cutter Dash being activated by holding "B" instead of "Forward + B." I couldn't finish Cutter Dash so I just left it like that.
 
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mimgrim

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
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Somewhere magical
#18
Just looking at it at the changes and I see a bunch I already dislike or find unnecessary. Actually, only changes I like are the increased air mobility and air speed and changes to star shot and copy (aside from the 15% damage that copying gets). :<
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
584
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#20
Impressions so far:
-Loving those mobility boosts
-1 less jump doesn't feel right
-Neither does a single-swing air Hammer
-Falling momentum from canceling Stone is a pretty creative way to introduce the idea of not being able to do it, kudos to you for coming up with that one
-Dash Attack nerfs aren't a huge deal, even if you do figure out how to stop it from hilariously rocketing off of platforms
-Very glad that your proposed Inhale nerfs didn't make it
-Also glad to notice U-Throw/F-Throw became worthwhile options
-Cutter Dash isn't even good in 3.5 or 3.6, so I don't mind your tweaks there one bit
-Nice to see Starshot and Copy have worthwhile rewards too

Aside from a few nerfs/tweaks I disagree with, this is pretty cool. It's like the truckload of QoL buffs he should have gotten in 3.6. <3
 

SazoonTheBoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
141
#21
imo they should probably make kirby's crouch less op as well because in matchups where people can't grab kirby when they're crouched makes the matchup infuriating for the other player. Just some jank I'd like to see removed. Sure jiggs can do the same, but her ground movement doesn't hold a candle to kirby's.
 

SazoonTheBoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
141
#24
I disagree. Messing with an attribute so central to his identity would be like nerfing Falcon's speed, Puff's weaving, Ganon's kill power, Marth's range, etc. :(
it's broken, janky, and polarizing in some matchups where characters rely on grabs. I think it's a terrible design how kirby can just jump in on someone's shield and just crouch because they can't grab a move done poorly on your shield.
 

Shenanigan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
183
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
#25
it's broken, janky, and polarizing in some matchups where characters rely on grabs. I think it's a terrible design how kirby can just jump in on someone's shield and just crouch because they can't grab a move done poorly on your shield.
You realize there are more things you can do out of shield than just grab, right? In addition, every character in the game has ways to pressure shields without risking getting grab through cross ups or proper spacing, Kirby is hardly unique or "broken, janky, and polarizing" in that regard.
 

SazoonTheBoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
141
#26
You realize there are more things you can do out of shield than just grab, right? In addition, every character in the game has ways to pressure shields without risking getting grab through cross ups or proper spacing, Kirby is hardly unique or "broken, janky, and polarizing" in that regard.
most oos options don't even cover kirby's crouch, also saying other characters have janky ass shield pressure doesn't justify shield pressure. One main problem I have with the crouch, is that it's kirby's main neutral tool right now. If a character can't hit kirby with most of their moves when kirby is crouching, it's automatically a good matchup. I find that incredibly stupid from both a kirby player and just a smash player in general. On the other hand, in a matchup where most of the opponents moves don't go over kirby, it's a lot easier to out play kirby in neutral due to his extremely limited movement options and short range. If however they were to keep crouch in it's current state, and buff his ability to outplay in neutral, kirby would be able to work in matchups where his crouch wasn't a major tool, and he would become ridiculous to deal with in matchups where the character can't even hit him on the ground. That's what's janky about it. Also I think it's really stupid how his best neutral tool only works in a handful of matchups where his crouch invalidates 80% of their opponents moves. Either they should just lower the hitboxes of grabs and other moves, or raise his hurtbox on crouch.
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
584
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Dream Land
#27
Marth and Falcon can grab Kirby's crouch with their running grabs, Snake, Zard, Mewtwo, and Ike all have several moves to beat Kirby's crouch/D-Tilt/OoS aerials, Link has a fantastic D-Smash and projectiles, Samus has her Boost Ball shenanigans and D-Smash, Ganon's grab range is so bad he shouldn't be grabbing Kirby anyway, and Zelda has Nayru's/Din's/Smashes to keep Kirby off her. Tell me again how his crouch shuts down these characters, and if I missed any?

The reason why he wins some of these MUs isn't from his crouch alone. Only when you combine that with how well Kirby's kit works against their neutrals/weights/recoveries does it become a recipe for success. Nerfing a niche thing because of a few bizarre interactions could create more problems than it solves. *looks at 3.5 U-Tilt*
 
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SazoonTheBoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
141
#28
Just because they modified some dash grab boxes doesn't mean they fixed the problem. It's still a horrible matchup for snake and zard. Also you completely forgot zss and sheik. Both of their entire kits are just stopped from kirby's dumb crouch. tbh I don't really care anymore. I give up on this game
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
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#29
You sure about Zard? From what I've played, his range gives Kirby quite the challenge.

Definitely right about Snake and ZSS though, and Sheik's best answer is to Needle camp. Balance is hard. :(
 

Bash2King

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Messages
69
NNID
MetroidBash550
#33
Same reason sm4sh multihitmoves do; to link better
I highly doubt smash 4 multihit box moves meteor to connect, but please prove me wrong more knowledge for me and if they do they dont meteor as strong as Kirby's Fair
 
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Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
61
Location
Kansas
#40
I still don't understand all this fuzz about kirby being **** D: He's strong, decent-mid range, an arsenal of anti-airs, godlike tilts, beautiful spacing, tech chasing and a surprisingly low amount of bad MU's. It's exactly like how people say that 3.6 squirtle is terribad Xd
 
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