Event - Apex 2015 Apex, Nintendo, and Their Future With Project M

[Samtaro]

This is a video discussing Project M's future with Apex and Nintendo. Should Apex and #Nintendo bring back #ProjectM after excluding it at #Apex2015 ? What do you think? Let's keep the dream alive and keep PM a talking point during this year's Apex.

 

[ZeldaMaster]

Whenever Nintendo sponsors a tournament, I almost guarantee you PM will be banned. Nintendo is real anal about stuff like that.

 

[Samtaro]

Whenever Nintendo sponsors a tournament, I almost guarantee you PM will be banned. Nintendo is real anal about stuff like that.

So then the question becomes... why is Super Smash Flash 2 there? It is a stand alone that doesn't require anyone buy the game... and it infringes on a lot more than PM. I mean I understand why they don't want PM there, but why not get rid of both?

 

[Wario Bros.]

So then the question becomes... why is Super Smash Flash 2 there? It is a stand alone that doesn't require anyone buy the game... and it infringes on a lot more than PM. I mean I understand why they don't want PM there, but why not get rid of both?

Super Smash Flash 2 doesn't require modding a Wii or hacking one of Nintendo's games.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

So then the question becomes... why is Super Smash Flash 2 there? It is a stand alone that doesn't require anyone buy the game... and it infringes on a lot more than PM. I mean I understand why they don't want PM there, but why not get rid of both?

Considering Project M's most accessible boot-up doesn't fiscally hurt continuing sales of Brawl, it seems even less harmful as SSF2 legally. Both SSF2 and P:M are non-profit, which is probably why Nintendo hasn't issued either McLeodGaming or the PMDT a cease-and-desist. Although, one concerns Nintendo endorsing a homebrew, hacking, and modding scene. So you be the judge on that.

I'm going to assume Nintendo doesn't have a problem with the inclusion of 3rd/4th party content not present in official Smash games nor the addition of additional costumes, stages, imagery, etc. Because that would warrant both games out of show.

I wonder if the P:M's fate would be met to SSF2 if they were to do, say, feature it as a main tourney event.

 

[warriorman222]

So then the question becomes... why is Super Smash Flash 2 there? It is a stand alone that doesn't require anyone buy the game... and it infringes on a lot more than PM. I mean I understand why they don't want PM there, but why not get rid of both?

SSF2 isn't hacking into a game and modding it. SSF2 isn't making itself superior to Brawl. SSF2 is not form outside perspective, a spite mod, made because you didn't like stuff in the game (it kinda is, but kinda isn't). SSF2 has been running a booth with no plans to change. SSF2 has less Nintendo characters, and most newcomers are 3rd party. SSF2 Isn't using a Nintendo game as a base. The first thing you see before playing SSF2, before you can even play, for 3 seconds before you can skip, is a notice that all IPs belong to respective owners, and can be taken away, AKA SSF2 knows and acknowledges first thing : none of it's content is truly theirs. SSF2 doesn't really compare to mainstream games, there is no big threat of SSF2 seeming better. And lastly, SSF2 is a fan game. If all the flash clones of SMB on the web are legal, then this game is even more legal.

That's all I could think of in 2 minutes, but there is likely more evidence.

 

[Johnknight1]

I wouldn't rule out Nintendo banning Project M from the few if any supposed "grassroots" tournaments they sponsor (which so far means nothing for the pot, which is insanely stupid; Nintendo has put zero dollars and zero cents into Smash tournament pots, whereas Capcom, a company with at best 1/4th the earnings has put in 6 digits worth), as well as I wouldn't rule out Melee being bumped out of the main event spot for Smash Wi U despite being the bigger draw (and it isn't even close).

They're only in this right now to market Smash 3DS and Wii U. Once they focus on Zelda Wii U and Star Fox Wii U they'll back out slowly, unless the rumors of them hosting a tournament series are true (which will likely only be about 4 events a year which probably will just have Smash Wii U and maybe at 1 or 2 events Melee).

Super Smash Flash 2 doesn't require modding a Wii

Project M doesn't require a modded Wii at all. That is just a flat inaccurate statement. I've had my Wii since day 1 of the console's launch and have never modded it, and I've played Project M on it since 2011 or 2012.

Project M only requires a launcher exploit in the game's stage builder where you can't have any stage builder stages, as well as a 1 to 2 GB SD card. That's it.

SSF2 isn't hacking into a game and modding it. SSF2 isn't making itself superior to Brawl.

Project M is basically aimed to be Melee 2.0 with Brawl's roster + Mewtwo and Roy. I don't know where you got a "superior to Brawl "aspect from, because Melee is nothing like Brawl (although competitively Melee [and Project M] is deeper in every regard just by design).

 

[Dino Domain]

explainlikeimfive: why does Nintendo not like modding/hacking? I mean Sony v. Universal ruled that you're entitled to have a copy of software you legally purchase. Imho, I think Nintendo has a chance of allowing PM if when realize how innocuous and awesome it is.

 

[MOHadam]

The problem is that nintendo cannot, in any way, acknowledge PM. If Nintendo would have let PM be at Apex then they are acknowledging PM as a game, albeit indirectly. If Nintendo ever acknowledges PM then they will have a multitude of copyright and legal issues on their hands. Basically there are loopholes in the legal aspect of copyright laws that companies and modders alike could abuse. The situation would get out of hand and would undoubtedly cost Nintendo time and money.

Nintendo will never cease/desist PM because they would suffer huge backlash from the competitive community. Thousands of people have PM downloaded and enjoy playing it and if Nintendo were to anger these people they wold receive large amounts of negative press.

 

[deadPhoenix]

Am I missing something, or didn't Nintendo just recently say it was okay for fan projects to be made as long as they were non profit? Wouldn't this give the okay for projects like PM to be "acknowledged" by Nintendo without any need for legal action?

 

[MOHadam]

Am I missing something, or didn't Nintendo just recently say it was okay for fan projects to be made as long as they were non profit? Wouldn't this give the okay for projects like PM to be "acknowledged" by Nintendo without any need for legal action?

I have never heard of Nintendo saying that non-profit fan projects were ok. When did they say that? In my knowledge Nintendo has been very much against projects in which their games have been altered or modded in any way...even if those projects were non-profit.

And no even if Nintendo said that they were ok with non-profit projects like PM, it would not be ok for them to acknowledge PM. In short it would create a multitude of licensing issues. Im not too sure on the specifics but there are definite loopholes that could be exploited.

 

[Book Jacket]

I have never heard of Nintendo saying that non-profit fan projects were ok. When did they say that? In my knowledge Nintendo has been very much against projects in which their games have been altered or modded in any way...even if those projects were non-profit.

And no even if Nintendo said that they were ok with non-profit projects like PM, it would not be ok for them to acknowledge PM. In short it would create a multitude of licensing issues. Im not too sure on the specifics but there are definite loopholes that could be exploited.

What nintendo said was that they will allow fans to use their intellectual property in derivative works.

We don't really know What that statement means in regards to PM.

 

[zpxociv]

I hope Nintendo and sm4sh just leave Apex alone from now on. All the who-huh-hee-ha is getting out of hand, for Baphomet's sake. Stop forcing this non-fighter down everyone's throat. It's beyond the point of plausible denial now and Apex proves that.

 

[Book Jacket]

I hope Nintendo and sm4sh just leave Apex alone from now on. All the who-huh-hee-ha is getting out of hand, for Baphomet's sake. Stop forcing this non-fighter down everyone's throat. It's beyond the point of plausible denial now and Apex proves that.

Dude, smash4 diddy is off topic. 's got nuthin' to do with PM at Apex. And you know Diddy's good in PM too, right?

 

[zpxociv]

Dude, smash4 diddy is off topic. 's got nuthin' to do with PM at Apex. And you know Diddy's good in PM too, right?

What do you mean "good in PM"? Because I know you didn't mean Diddy's superior to everyone else like in 4. And there's nothing off-topic about Nintendo shoving their Diddy meme-generator smash where it doesn't belong, which IS the thread topic, btw

 

[Oobz]

How is sm4sh not a fighting game?

 

[Book Jacket]

What do you mean "good in PM"? Because I know you didn't mean Diddy's superior to everyone else like in 4. And there's nothing off-topic about Nintendo shoving their Diddy meme-generator smash where it doesn't belong, which IS the thread topic, btw

Thread topic is about PM and Nintendo, not the current best character in the early stages of a new game's meta. Diddy is not superior to every other character. It only seems like it right now because M2K and ZeRo play him, and everyone assumes that means that Diddy is S4 God.

He ain't. Meta's new, Diddy is simple. Simplicity thrives in the unknown. If you have a problem with that, find a way to fight Diddy. Find a smarter, better character. You can't tell me we know all about this game already, because we don't. Even if he was better, the games we play aren't about the characters. Grand Finals wasn't about Diddy vs. Olimar, it was about ZeRo vs. Dabuz.

And have you played PM? Diddy's really good in PM. Ver. 3.02 clocked him in tied with Lucas. I dunno 3.5 too well, based on everything I've seen, he's probably not as good as he was. My point still stands, though. He's always been a contender.

Nintendo is not shoving Diddy down our throats. They haven't encouraged people to play Diddy, they just sponsored the tournament. Melee is still the main event, so Nintendo isn't even shoving the most recent Smash down our throats.

 

[warriorman222]

What nintendo said was that they will allow fans to use their intellectual property in derivative works.

We don't really know What that statement means in regards to PM.

It's essentially code for "You can make a game in our name, but not from our game". Which is why SSF2 is still at Apex, yet PM couldn't even get a booth. Maybe they're fine with PM, but then they'd have to get Sega and Konami on board too.

 

[Book Jacket]

It's essentially code for "You can make a game in our name, but not from our game". Which is why SSF2 is still at Apex, yet PM couldn't even get a booth. Maybe they're fine with PM, but then they'd have to get Sega and Konami on board too.

Personally, I think it was Nintendo agreeing to not deliver a Cease and Desist, but nothing more. They're gonna let the game be okay, but that doesn't mean they have to like it or support it.

 

[warriorman222]

Personally, I think it was Nintendo agreeing to not deliver a Cease and Desist, but nothing more. They're gonna let the game be okay, but that doesn't mean they have to like it or support it.

AKA they may be fine with PM. But the way it could be interpreted(The way I did) may have been a reason for them to not allow PM in.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

So then the question becomes... why is Super Smash Flash 2 there? It is a stand alone that doesn't require anyone buy the game... and it infringes on a lot more than PM. I mean I understand why they don't want PM there, but why not get rid of both?

Super smash flash doesn't use any copy-written material, so there's a huge important difference right there. It's legal to make your own sprites and use them like that. PM is using the copywritten material of brawl.

PM WILL NEVER DIE!

 

[zpxociv]

PM is the only future I want or can even see for smash. I'm done with melee, brawl and already sm4sh, which is the worst one of all. If anyone thinks Diddy will be countered in an advanced meta, I've got some news for you: There's nothing there in any character that could ever potentially cause problems for Diddy. The meta that evolved for melee also contains abstract knowledge that is applied to sm4sh, bringing its meta up to speed with whatever is applicable, meaning it is almost as if years of meta was already developed for it. There is no meta evolving for sm4sh because it has even less to offer than melee had. This is endgame.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wouldn't rule out Nintendo banning Project M from the few if any supposed "grassroots" tournaments they sponsor (which so far means nothing for the pot, which is insanely stupid; Nintendo has put zero dollars and zero cents into Smash tournament pots, whereas Capcom, a company with at best 1/4th the earnings has put in 6 digits worth), as well as I wouldn't rule out Melee being bumped out of the main event spot for Smash Wi U despite being the bigger draw (and it isn't even close).

Based on what the Treehouse as said, I doubt they would aim for grassroots tournaments,

Project M is basically aimed to be Melee 2.0 with Brawl's roster + Mewtwo and Roy. I don't know where you got a "superior to Brawl "aspect from, because Melee is nothing like Brawl (although competitively Melee [and Project M] is deeper in every regard just by design).

Depending on the aspects and if people like that.

 

[Book Jacket]

PM is the only future I want or can even see for smash. I'm done with melee, brawl and already sm4sh, which is the worst one of all. If anyone thinks Diddy will be countered in an advanced meta, I've got some news for you: There's nothing there in any character that could ever potentially cause problems for Diddy. The meta that evolved for melee also contains abstract knowledge that is applied to sm4sh, bringing its meta up to speed with whatever is applicable, meaning it is almost as if years of meta was already developed for it. There is no meta evolving for sm4sh because it has even less to offer than melee had. This is endgame.

That is a very extreme representation of the current state of the game. I don't see how Smash 4 has no more to offer, especially considering how new tricks are appearing on the subreddit every day. And the Teams in Smash 4 are really deep, man.

But I'm still confused as to how any of what you're saying has to do with PM. Smash 4's metagame development has nothing to do with Nintendo's position on derivative works, or PM.

 

[zpxociv]

Book, get back to me when sm4sh tourney's aren't won by hoohah. I'm in plausible deniability mode as of now. And to be on topic, Nintendo has legal requirements to follow so they can't just allow any derivative games to be in their presence. I have no idea why they allowed SSF. It must have slipped through the cracks or something. It's not even up to them; if they allow it, they lose their IP rights.

 

[warriorman222]

PM is the only future I want or can even see for smash. I'm done with melee, brawl and already sm4sh, which is the worst one of all. If anyone thinks Diddy will be countered in an advanced meta, I've got some news for you: There's nothing there in any character that could ever potentially cause problems for Diddy. The meta that evolved for melee also contains abstract knowledge that is applied to sm4sh, bringing its meta up to speed with whatever is applicable, meaning it is almost as if years of meta was already developed for it. There is no meta evolving for sm4sh because it has even less to offer than melee had. This is endgame.

Or, we could allow customs, and Diddy/Shiek/Sonic crash down to unviable tier, and we get like 20-30 top tiers.

And I made a huge post on why SSF2 was allowed and PM not. Legal requirements allow SSF2 to be in, as it's a fan game, not a spite mod. Also most of the content isn't even Nintendo, almost all the newcomers are 3rd/4th Party.

 

[Book Jacket]

Book, get back to me when sm4sh tourney's aren't won by hoohah. I'm in plausible deniability mode as of now. And to be on topic, Nintendo has legal requirements to follow so they can't just allow any derivative games to be in their presence. I have no idea why they allowed SSF. It must have slipped through the cracks or something. It's not even up to them; if they allow it, they lose their IP rights.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2EFIzijDfg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D9LKsglwzo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2j6M-5KAkA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKFyOs2TTmg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h88sVc9yUTI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcHaAI-FHqg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN4jgqL9ScE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6CWzTQIXtE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQRsJtr3YGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMi0BhrFmSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVNARMhc6R4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEpnexyFmX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpU6zwL3hu0

Do they lose their IP rights if they allow it? I don't think they do, my understanding is that any IP can be used with the owner's consent or for works of satire. Obviously PM isn't satire, but I mean, if Nintendo actually said "Yeah, we acknowledge this and we allow it," I don't think they'd lose their IP rights, what with effectively giving consent and all.

 

[zpxociv]

I'm not gonna pretend I understand Nintendo's thinking. Right now, I'm wondering if they aren't truly insulted by the notion that a mod could be more impressive than their own work so they don't want anyone to know about PM and try to ban it anywhere they can. That C&D doesn't come only because they don't want to anger a bunch of computer-savvy nerds that might bring the hacker thunder down on their servers. Only someone from the inside could ever explain their stance on it.

 

[Book Jacket]

I'm not gonna pretend I understand Nintendo's thinking. Right now, I'm wondering if they aren't truly insulted by the notion that a mod could be more impressive than their own work so they don't want anyone to know about PM and try to ban it anywhere they can. That C&D doesn't come only because they don't want to anger a bunch of computer-savvy nerds that might bring the hacker thunder down on their servers. Only someone from the inside could ever explain their stance on it.

That's fair enough. I think, though, personally, that the main reasons that there isn't a C&D are that A) the mod really only appeals to Competitive fans, who make up a relatively small portion of sales, and B) you gotta own the game to use it anyway

 

[jmanup85]

That's fair enough. I think, though, personally, that the main reasons that there isn't a C&D are that A) the mod really only appeals to Competitive fans, who make up a relatively small portion of sales, and B) you gotta own the game to use it anyway

Actually you do not need the game to run PM

 

[chipz]

Actually you do not need the game to run PM

now you're just talking about piracy though, which isn't what tournaments would do.

 

[jmanup85]

now you're just talking about piracy though, which isn't what tournaments would do.

unfortunately they have

 

[chipz]

unfortunately they have

if they were sponsored by Nintendo they sure wouldnt

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

now you're just talking about piracy though, which isn't what tournaments would do.

Some do when they run PM.

 

[MOHadam]

Athenshorseparty made a great post on reddit that defines this issue in great detail. http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2up9xa/infopost_regarding_pm_us_copyright_law_and_the/

I advise all of you active on this thread to read through it. It should clear up a lot of misunderstandings regarding this issue,=.

 

[Vortex 4]

My question is: Are the "benefits" of having Nintendo sponsor smash tournaments worth it?
Sure it means some more money and a little more legitimacy, but the competitive smash community has grown and thrived without their support for over a decade.
What is the big N doing for us that we should abandon a game we love for their sake.
As far as I see it, the smash community has been providing free publicity for Nintendo games for years, and now that they finally throw us a bone, we are expected to follow their rules.
As long as people want to play PM, tournaments should run it period.
How does it make sense to not run the game because "Nintando wont give us monies!"?

 

[Johnknight1]

Based on what the Treehouse as said, I doubt they would aim for grassroots tournaments,

Oh is that panel thing up on the Screw Attack yet=???

I'm curious about what it will say, since Nintendo has not been nice to the competitive scene until about a year ago in the slightest.

Heck, their Treehouse members generally speaking refuse to even say the words "Melee" or "Brawl" when talking about Melee and Brawl in tournaments, which I find puzzling.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh is that panel thing up on the Screw Attack yet=???

I'm curious about what it will say, since Nintendo has not been nice to the competitive scene until about a year ago in the slightest.

Heck, their Treehouse members generally speaking refuse to even say the words "Melee" or "Brawl" when talking about Melee and Brawl in tournaments, which I find puzzling.

Hmm interesting for about PM when they talked to Prog they were more or less saying they liked the mod but Nintendo could not support it officially.

 

[Johnknight1]

Hmm interesting for about PM when they talked to Prog they were more or less saying they liked the mod but Nintendo could not support it officially.

I know some Treehouse members said that a while ago. I don't see why anyone is opposed to this, especially since details emerged that the APEX thing was likely Alex Strife's fault.

Honestly, if they're at least ignoring it like that it's cool by me and the community. Better letting it live and not paying it any attention than shooting it down. At least they're that friendly with the fans.

Still, I wish they could support the official smash scene more instead of just a few TO's (especially since the last one they supported the most was the worst kind of scum to be a TO in history). It would help if they put money in the pots, even just for Smash Wii U. Still, it took Capcom time (although they never blocked their games at tournaments last I heard), so I think it's fair to let Nintendo put their toes in the water before they swim in the deep end.