Aperture Science: Yoshi Testing/Research/Discovery (Test chamber 2 complete)

[CelestialMarauder~]

This is for anything Yoshi has that needs Testing. Even things that don't exactly need testing. We'll be testing for the sake of testing.

Call me GLaDOS.
Call yourselves Chell.
Call your Projects a Test Chamber.
You Monsters.

There is a lot to be done not much time to do it. So the way this will be ran will change slightly.
(Remember if you have anything suggested that we should test post it)

[Collapse="Frame Data: How to and tips - by Scatz"]
This is for people wanting to help with frame data information. I'm going to simply list the basics to work the frame data coding.

First: Make sure you either know how to use text files with code manager. If not, then download this .GCT file and place it in a folder called "codes" in your SD card (on the root).

GCT File ~ http://www.mediafire.com/?xfaqa3vbabwjwkfhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVy972P79U

The codes contained in this file are:

Debug Pause
Button Modifier
Infinite Replays
Tags in Replays

Make sure you load this through GECKO OS. I'm not going to explain how to softmod your Wii, so look it up on www.Wiihacks.com.

When you've loaded this code, the following buttons will be:

Start = Freeze 
Z = advance by one frame
Dpad Up + X = Start

Now, when using this code, anytime you freeze the game, you have to push Z to make one frame go by. If you push start, the game will proceed normally. To input a move while advancing by frames, first, hold down the button you will be using (A, B, Y, X, L, R, w.e) and then push Z while holding the previous button to make the move come out. If you push the button then push Z the move will not come out. For inputting smashes, just hold the control stick in the direction you're doing it for plus the A button. The C-stick does not work in this mode! So DON'T USE IT WHILE FRAME ADVANCING!!! To input a tilt, you have to move the control stick to the direction very slightly while doing frame advance. When you see the character beginning to move, you can then hold the A button (holding the control stick doesn't matter at this point) while pressing Z.

Hopefully you will understand the basics to frame advance if you choose to use it to gain more information about our character vs the cast. Make sure you understand the basics, because other frame data testing might require more [tedious] work.


[/Collapse]

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I'll Organize more later on but for now it will be separated into Active and Inactive.

So Chell managed to Finish here. It was a Glorious Display of Fortitude. It would have been done a lot sooner if she lightened up. The weight seems to be slowing her down.
[COLLAPSE="Finished Testchambers"]
[COLLAPSE="TC1: Upsmash on the SV platform"]So Test Chamber 1 was really simple. It was just basic testing of the ability to Upsmash characters on the Smashville Platform. (as in when they're on it and we're just on the the stage.)
Some people are thinking that that was a pretty stupid thing to research but it may actually be a useful factor to consider on the stage.
To show how unchecked it was even Scatz was in the dark about it. He just thought we could hit everyone.

Fun Facts

• If your opponent shields while it is more or less full you will hit it and push them off.
• When you Upsmash a shielding Yoshi on the platform you can poke through his shield.
• You cannot hit peach while she is standing there but it is good to note that from that height on is where Upsmash begins to miss her while she is floating.

Who we can hit (while they are standing):

• (Difficult don't bother trying)
• (Pretty easily)
• (kinda difficult)
• (Maybe because you see skid marks but i can't seem to get much further even if you can don't bother)
• (pretty easily)
• (I only ever hit Popo. It may be due to hitlag causing enough difference in timing so the platform moves Nana out of range. The timing was pretty tight to begin with, and I found myself getting a lot of skid marks before actually connecting. Nana was frequently skid marked after hitting Popo.)
• 
• 
• (you hit him during some part of his idle animation so don't bother)
• (not worth it)
• 
• (easy)
• (kinda hard)
• (she has some parts during her Idle stance where she jumps up a bit making it impossible to hit. Other wise you can)
• (easy)
• (don't bother)

If they aren't there they can't be hit while standing. Some can be hit while crouching and others can be hit while knocked down and possibly in shield break animation. Those are however tests for another day that you best believe might end up a future test chamber.
[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="TC2: Strong Hit Nair Lock"]Some people may know that nair is one of (if not our only) move with Jab lock properties. Now while the weaker hitboxes can jablock at higher percents, we unfortunately have no legit setups for them atm . However we DO have a setup for strong hit nair.

As you may have seen in one of the first few Metagame minute videos, There are a few characters who cannot tech a landing if they slip off of the edge of the lower Battlefield Platforms. This means that if we Upsmash them while they are shielding on those platforms and they slip off, we can get at least 1 Nair in forcing a jab lock animation which can be followed up with anything we want!

This is great and all, but the unfortunate part is this only works at low%'s and the percent varies by character. Below are the characters who cannot avoid this setup if they slip and the percentages that they can be jab locked by a (fresh) Strong hit nair.


- 10%
- 14/15%
- 10%
- 14%
- 13%
- 16%
- 18%
- 17%
- 16%
- 14%
- 17%
- 12%
- 12%
- 12%
- 14%
- 14%
- 12%
- 16%
- 16%
- 14%
- 16%

This test chamber may be revisited in the future to include all of the cast. But for now this is it. [/COLLAPSE]
[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Inactive"]
Double Jump Breaking Points
[collapse="How to Help"] DJ Frame Data
"Frame 1: Armor is activated
Frame 70: Armor has ended (this is as soon as he finishes pulling his head backwards).

THERE ARE NO INTERRUPTIONS WHERE THE ARMOR GOES AWAY!"

So what you guys are testing is what %'s do what moves Break Yoshis Double Jump.

Easiest way to Test

1. Go to training mode
2. Pick character to test and put Yoshi as the training dummy
3. Pick Battle field or a custom stage
4. Stand the character thats being tested on a platform and attack Yoshi when he's passing through the platform

You can adjust Yoshis % easier on training mode.

Now if you want to be a perfectionist and test it on regular multiplayer mode test it on training anyway to get your basic starting% down. For quicker speeds, if you go over 300%, you are to put in, "> 300%.
[/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"]

Fresh Moves

​

Jab 1 -Never
Jab 2 - Never
Jab 3 - Never
Ftilt - 108
Dtilt - 194
Utilt - 80
Fsmash - (1st hit) >300 (2nd hit) 57
Usmash - (first few hits) >300 (last hit) 93
Dsmash - 61
Nair - 109
Fair - 74
Dair - 65
Bair - 88
Uair - 83
Neutral B - >300
Forward B - (forgot to do the kick)
Down B - Never
Up B - 77

(Handled by Airborne)

Fair N/A
Bair 80
Nair 144
Dair 74
Uair 73

Dsmash 89
Upsmash 60
Fsmash 45

Utilt1 300+
Utilt2 81
Dtilt 77
Ftilt 123

Jab1 300+
Jab2 300+
Flurry 300+
Dash Attack 87

DownB LOL does this need to be tested? I did anyways though; it doesn't.
NeutralB NEVA!!!
Upb N/A
SideB 247 .___.


Jabs (1st/2nd/3rd) - >300
Ftilt - 107%
Dtilt - 297%
Utilt - 57%
Dash Attack - 79%
Fsmash - 57%
Usmash - 60%
Dsmash - 107%
Nair - 105%
Nair (soft) - 251%
Fair - 57%
Fair (soft) - 246%
Dair - Sporadic. It's >300 for single hits, but if all hits connect, it can break through as soon as 110%. I'll test more in the future.
Bair - 99%
Uair - 82%
Neutral B - 36% (Assuming a fully-charged Rollout)
Forward B - 72% (No difference between aerial and grounded)
Down B - 0%
Up B - N/A

(Handled by Frown)
Jabs (1st/2nd/3rd) -
Ftilt - 114%
Dtilt - 209%
Utilt - 64%
Fsmash -
Usmash -
Dsmash -
Nair - 62%
Fair - 107%
Dair - 83%
Bair - 84%
Uair - 92%
Neutral B - Over 300%
Forward B - (fully charged) 31% / (uncharged)
Down B - Over 300% / (last hit) 75%
Up B - (sweetspotted) 3% !!!

Jabs (1st/2nd/3rd) - Over 300%
Ftilt - 131%
Dtilt - 222%
Utilt - 80%
Fsmash - 52%
Usmash - 60%
Dsmash - 65%
Nair - 93%
Fair - 101%
Dair - 46%
Bair - 92%
Uair - 95%
Neutral B - Over 300%
Forward B - N/A
Down B - N/A
Up B - Over 300%

(tipper in parentheses)

All moves fresh and done in training mode. All smashes uncharged. Thanks to Scott! for helping me get this data.

Jab (1st hit): >250% (199%)
Ftilt: 146% (75%)
Utilt: 57% (59%) *
Dtilt: 245% (184%)
Fsmash: 49% (9%)
Usmash (foot): 0%
Usmash (sword): (58%) **
Dsmash (1st hit): 51% (38%)
Dsmash (2nd hit): 40% (42%) *
Nair (1st hit): >250% (>250%)
Nair (2nd hit): 86% (43%)
Nair (both hits): 82% (37%)
Fair: 109% (68%)
Uair: 107% (68%) ***
Bair: 89% (62%)
Dair: 101% (62%)
B (fully charged): 21% (6%)
B (uncharged): 99% (69%)
Side-B (1st hit): >250% (>250%)
Up-B: 42% ****
Dash Attack: 80% (46%)

Jab----300%<
Ftilt--249%/300%</88%
Dtilt--175%~246% (Feet/Cape~Swordtip)
Utilt--60%~80% (Swordtip~Feet)
FSmash-56%-*32%
DSmash-54%-*34%/46%-*26%
USmash-300%<-*300%</300%<-*300%/51%-*38%
Nair: Strong Hitbox-65%, Week Hitbox-130%
Fair: Hit 1-300+, Hit 2-300+, Hit 3-73%
Dair: 103%
Bair: Hit 1-300+, Hit 2-300+, Hit 3-73%
Uair: 80%
B------>300% other hits 91%(Last Hit)
SideB - >300% other hits 77%(last hit)
DownB -79%
UpB -35
Glide - 60%
Dash attack - 120%

Jab1: never
Jab2: 179
Dash attack: 93

Ftilt: 111
Utilt (all hits connect): 89
Dtilt: 106

Fsmash:
red: 70
blue: 70
yellow: 83
purple: 47
white: 152

Fsmash (falling):
red: 117
blue: 167
yellow: 167
purple: 74
white: 332

Usmash:
red: 37
blue: 37
yellow: 42
purple: 27
white: 72

Dsmash (front and back have same knockback):
red: 61
blue: 65
yellow: 71
purple: 48
white: 128

Nair (all hits connect): 94
Fair:
red: 64
blue: 74
yellow: 81
purple: 67
white: 180

Bair:
red: 78
blue: 78
yellow: 86
purple: 78
white: 190

Uair (all hits connect):
red: 46
blue: 46
yellow: 52
purple: 46
white: 126
Dair:
red: 44
blue: 53
yellow: 65
purple: 53
white: 99

Side-B:
purple: 183

Up-B:
red: 73
blue: 84
yellow: 84
purple: 67
white: 84



Jab: Will never break DJ.

(All smashes are uncharged)
F-smash sweet (Near pikas face): 24
F-smash sour (tip of the lightning) 47
U-smash first frame: 52
D-smash (Every hit but the last) >300
D-smash (Last hit) 21

B-down Thunder1 (The thunder above pikachu) 18
B -downThunder2 (The attack that hits if your right next to pikachu) 0. This move is unbelievably strong. ._.
B-T-jolt: Will never break DJ.
Up-b: Quick attack: Will never break DJ
Side-b uncharged: 125
Side-b fully charged: 20

F-tilt mid: 108
F-tilt high: 98
F-tilt low: 121
D-tilt: 141
U-tilt sweet (Infront and above pika): 70
U-tilt week: (Behind pika last frame) 85

N-air: (first frame) 73
U-air: 208
B-air (Every hit besides the last): >300
B-air (Last hit) 116
F-air (Every hit besides the last) >300
F-air (Last hit) 109
D-air: 102


Jab - Never
Jab 2 - Never
Jab 3 - 50%
Ftilt 1 - 69%
Ftilt 2 - 68%
Dtilt - 49%
Utilt(sweet spot) - 37%!
Utilt(sour spot) - 53%

All Smashes are uncharged.

Forward Smash - 0%!
Up Smash - 23%
Down Smash - 18%!

Dash attack - 68%

Grenades - 60%
C4 - 39%
Nikita - strong - 29%
Nikita - weak - 101%
Cypher - Never

Nair 1 - Never
Nair 2 - Never
Nair 3 - Never
Nair 4 - 48%

Dair 1 - Never
Dair 2 - Never
Dair 3 - Never
Dair 4- 47%


Fresh/Fatigued

Jab 1: never
Jab 2: never
Jab 3: 116/148

Dash 102/140
Ftilt: 168/220
Utilt: 128/168
Dtilt (all hits): 79/108

Fsmash: 64/96
Usmash: 26/44
Dsmash: 101/143

Nair: 102/140
Fair: 71/103
Bair: 95/133
Uair: 78/111
Dair (all hits): 53/73

B: never
Side-B: 186/208*
Up-B: 92/119

*Take with a grain of salt, as I was having trouble repeating this measurement. Sometimes, it would break the armor at 208, but it usually wouldn't. I didn't get it to break the armor at 207, but it's possible that this is because I just never got the right hitbox while testing at 207.



Jab 1 - Never
Jab 2 - Never
Jab 3 - 148
Ftilt - 108
Dtilt - 120
Utilt - 60
Dash attack - Didn't do
Fsmash - (1st hit) Never (2nd hit) 52
Usmash - 54
Dsmash - (Front)95 (back)65
Nair - 92
Fair - 56
Dair - 52(strong)
Bair - 76
Uair - 62(strong)
Zair - <300
Neutral B - 206 charged fully
Forward B - >173
Down B - About 170?
Up B - Last hit grounded 120 (other hits never)
[/collapse]
Ledge Grab Release Options
[collapse="How to help"]Project Leader - Scatz
For now we have all stationary Ledge Grab release options. What we do not have is precise frame data on the options(as in how large the window is to get said options). We also do not have ledge release options on stages with slopes(situational) and we also lack the options on Moving platforms.

You don't need Frame Hacks to help get the Moving Stage and the Slope Related options, but we still do need Frame Testers to confirm everything that's found.[/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"]
When you Jump from the ledge the initial 6 frames before Yoshi leaves the ground are cancel'd. The backfire is that you can only full hop but you still get 6 extra frames which gives us some new Grab release options on a few characters.

- Fair
- Fair, Nair
- Uair
- Egglay
- Egglay
- Egglay
- Egglay
- Egglay
- Egglay
- Egglay
- Egglay


Yoshi's Grab Release: Ledge Recoveries. This shows if a character can land onstage out of a grab release. If they can't that means once you are on the ledge they are forced to land on stage and use a special to do so. This is more of a reference.


Yes = Gets on Stage (29)
No = Gets on Ledge (10)
LOL= Neither (0)


= Yes
= Yes
= Yes
= No
= Yes
= No
= Yes
= Yes
= No
= Yes
= No
= No
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes (Multi-Jump X1)
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes (Multi-Jump X1)
= Yes (Multi-Jump X2)
= Yes (Multi-Jump X3)
= Yes
= No
= No
= No
= No
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes (Multi-Jump X2)
= Yes
= Yes (Multi-Jump X0)
= Yes
= No
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes
= Yes[/collapse]
Smashville Moving Platform Grab Release Options
[collapse="How to help"][/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"][/collapse]
Rainbow Cruise Grab Release Options
[collapse="How to help"][/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"][/collapse]
Dair Tripping Combos
[collapse="How to help"]Well to help with this what we need is the exact % that Dairs Tripping rate starts to get really crazy (its in the 100's somewhere). You can test that pretty easily. Just turn on the handicap and set it to 100.

Now what else we need falls probably under the realm of Frame Data but you can also just play around to see what you can get out of a trip with Dair. [/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"][/collapse]
Shield Advantage Data
[collapse="How to help"]Use the frame advance code!

Firstly, you're going to have Yoshi shield during an opponent's attack. You'll be taking down how much frame advantage we have in relation to said attack on our shield. You'll need to use these to gather information:

Frame advance data from other character boards

And to get the actual amount of frame advantage Yoshi has, you'll need this equation:

For mostly all cases, you can assume Hitlag to be one more than blockhitlag + blockstun. If you don't have the information from character boards to come up with the frame data information, then do this with frame advance.

First, you'll initiate the attack on Yoshi's shield (Hold Yoshi's shield while doing this). Count how many frames it takes to hit the shield and record the number it actually hits. Then, both characters will be frozen for a set amount of time. During this, you can let go of Yoshi's shield, and count how many frame they are frozen. When you see the opponent beginning to move, you can then write down the duration as blockhitlag. Now begin counting the amount of frames it takes for Yoshi to begin unshielding (the opponent if finishing his attack during this). When Yoshi begins to unshield, write down the number as blockstun. Hitlag will be one more than the numbers you've just gotten. From there, all you do is write down how long it takes for the move to go from start to finish (include the startup) without hitting a shield. That is the duration of the move and you subtract the startup (hit)from duration.

An example would be something like this: (these numbers are fake)



This means that we have 32 frames to do something vs Mario's Fsmash (if shielded).

Now, to make stuff slightly easier to read, subtract that amount with 17 (Yoshi's unshield animation), and write that down in parenthesis. After you've done all of that, you can move on to the next move/character. THIS METHOD IS EXTREMELY TEDIOUS, BUT IT FAIRLY SIMPLISTIC TO DO. [/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"][/collapse]
Eggroll Priority (<3)
[collapse="How to help"]Project Leader - None
Okay, this one is probably not important at all, but hey eggroll is a move, i like it, some other Yoshis like it, why not know a little more about it eh? What we need here is every character's moves (minus Fair, Bair, Nair, Uair and Dair) tested to see if it beats, clanks with or loses to eggroll. No real experience or tech skill needed.

If you only have one person to test with make a really big stage and eggroll from one side to the other.

Be sure to test a move 3 times at least, to leave room for errors.[/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"][/collapse]
Footstool Combos
[collapse="How to help"]Project Leader - Celes
What we really need here is creativity. I found some really silly footstool combos just by playing with it. Footstools are inclusive of Aerial Footstools and Grounded Footstools.
What I'm looking for here is guaranteed things, but if you find something that isn't guaranteed but still seems possible, that would also help as a mix-up so post it anyway!

A silly but guaranteed Footstool combo that i found last night is a good example.
If you Footstool DK while he's grounded you can instantly DJC egglay him.

So if you choose to help with this, just play around with footstools and things you can do after them.[/collapse]
[collapse="Information So far"]We have a Guaranteed Aerial Footstool to Nair on these Characters.

• ZSS
• Samus
• Ice Climbers
• Squirtle
• Charizard
• DK
• Bowser
• ROB
• Mario
• Luigi
• Yoshi
• Toonlink
• Olimar
• Fox
• Falco
• Wolf
• Lucario
• Ness
• Lucas
• GnW
• Sonic

We have a Grounded Footstool to Nair on these characters

• Mario
• Link
• Fox
• Marth
• Game&Watch
• Luigi
• Yoshi
• Sheik
• Ice Climbers
• Sonic
• Toonlink
• Wario
• D3

Grounded Footstool to DJC Egglay (Works Both Directions)

• Peach
• Diddy
• Yoshi
• Wario
• Zelda
• Ganondorf
• Pit
• Kirby
• D3
• Pikachu
• Squirtle
• Ivysaur
• Charizard
• Jigglypuff
• Marth
• Game&Watch
• Sonic

Grounded Footstool to DJC Egglay (Only Works when facing Eachother)

• Mario
• DK
• Link
• Samus
• ZSS
• Fox
• Luigi
• Sheik
• Metaknight
• Falco
• Ike
• Snake
• Ice Climbers
• Lucario
• Wolf
• Lucas
• Falcon
• Olimar
• ROB
• Toonlink
• Bowser
• Ness

[/collapse]

Down B Teching
Rainbow Cruise Grab Release Options
Rainbow Cruise Falling Block thing

[/COLLAPSE]

Test chamber 2 is completed. Test Chamber 3 coming soon.

 

[Yink]

Celes, this is a good idea. Nice thread.

 

[bigman40]

This is for people wanting to help with frame data information. I'm going to simply list the basics to work the frame data coding.

First: Make sure you either know how to use text files with code manager. If not, then download this .GCT file and place it in a folder called "codes" in your SD card (on the root).

GCT File ~ http://www.mediafire.com/?xfaqa3vbabwjwkfhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVy972P79U

The codes contained in this file are:

Debug Pause
Button Modifier
Infinite Replays
Tags in Replays

Make sure you load this through GECKO OS. I'm not going to explain how to softmod your Wii, so look it up on www.Wiihacks.com.

When you've loaded this code, the following buttons will be:

Start = Freeze 
Z = advance by one frame
Dpad Up + X = Start

Now, when using this code, anytime you freeze the game, you have to push Z to make one frame go by. If you push start, the game will proceed normally. To input a move while advancing by frames, first, hold down the button you will be using (A, B, Y, X, L, R, w.e) and then push Z while holding the previous button to make the move come out. If you push the button then push Z the move will not come out. For inputting smashes, just hold the control stick in the direction you're doing it for plus the A button. The C-stick does not work in this mode! So DON'T USE IT WHILE FRAME ADVANCING!!! To input a tilt, you have to move the control stick to the direction very slightly while doing frame advance. When you see the character beginning to move, you can then hold the A button (holding the control stick doesn't matter at this point) while pressing Z.

Hopefully you will understand the basics to frame advance if you choose to use it to gain more information about our character vs the cast. Make sure you understand the basics, because other frame data testing might require more [tedious] work.

 

[Airborne]

I think for Dair tripping combos, we might be able to just figure out what can combo on who if we just look at frame data tables.

Lovin' this thread.

 

[bigman40]

Celes, for your moving grab release options, I just think people should test about half the cast on one of the two moving stages and write down what we get. It's fast and efficient, then some of the more techy people can take time and get all the details for all of the stuff.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Celes, for your moving grab release options, I just think people should test about half the cast on one of the two moving stages and write down what we get. It's fast and efficient, then some of the more techy people can take time and get all the details for all of the stuff.

I was thinking that but i have yet to see a single volunteer. I know for a fact some of them read it, but for now we wait lol. I'll add the descriptions on how to help a little later.

 

[Sinister Slush]

List of Characters that can be Grounded Footstool To Nair

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Oh yeaaah contributions we're getting started now.

 

[Airborne]

I was thinking that but i have yet to see a single volunteer. I know for a fact some of them read it, but for now we wait lol. I'll add the descriptions on how to help a little later.

I gots no Wii in mah room. =(

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I gots no Wii in mah room. =(

Well you have a legit john so you are forgiven that i know you would help if you were able to.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Grounded Footstool to DJC Egglay (Works Both Directions)


















Grounded Footstool to DJC Egglay (Only Works when facing Eachother)

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Sooo i just had a conversation with hadesblade and i don't even think i feel like continuing this. soooo yup. I'll still update it if anyone wants to contribute stuff, but im done actually testing things for a while

 

[Depster]

This thread is epic

 

[Abel1994]

What bout yoshi AT THE BARREL ROLL!

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

To anyone who has free time and a wii, would you be willing to try some down b teching and tell me some of your results? I'm actually curious because a few days ago i noticed that it didn't work on snakes Fsmash after a certain%

 

[Delta-cod]

I tested some stuff. Please note that all of the following was done in Training Mode on Final Destination.

Snake's Fsmash stops working at 63%. I can do the tech fine at 62, but the second I hit 63 I couldn't do it anymore. It does increase our survivability by quite a bit, however.

Snake pushed all the way to the left edge of FD, Fsmashing to the right.

DI used: Hold Down until momentum cancel, switch to up during the Uair and DJ.

Without using Down b, I died at 83% to Snake's Fsmash, living up to 82% with the initial hit using this DI.

With the Down b, I died at 94%, living while being hit at 93%. The only difference in the DI process was that I was attempting to Down B tech before being hit.

When I used normal DI (Hold towards the corner, UAir, FF, DJ) I lived to 110%, being unable to survive while being hit at 111%.

Differences of survival percents:

Down DI, no Down B and Standard - 27%

Down DI, no Down B and Down B - 11%

Down B and Standard - 17%

Jigglypuff's Dsmash works forever. Which makes sense since it's a semi-spike. I'd venture to say that all semi-spikes work like this. I was living at about 200%, even when I missed the tech, with Jiggs at about the center of FD. I went to 999% and was still able to tech.

Fox's Usmash stopped working at 34%. Teching was worked at 33%. I was, however, able to survive for a few more percent using this method.

Fox was not directly centered and was off to the side (1/4 of the stage away from the ledge, near the arrows) to allow for room to DI horizontally.

With standard DI (Initial DI'd away and down, UAir momentum cancel, FF attempt, died during the Uair), I died at 115%. With this DI AND the Down B tech attempt, I lived until 117%. The usmash began killing regardless at 118%.

I'd pretty much say that, against vertical knock back moves, Down B DI is the way to go. Semi Spikes let you tech them forever if you're good enough, and even then survival rate is high if you miss the tech while still using Down B. Against typical Forward smashes, standard DI is the best, but if you do happen to be caught with poor DI, having poor DI due to down b is much better than just normal poor DI.

Down B Teching is most effective on Semi Spikes, least effective on upwards trajectory knockback, and decently effective on Fsmash type knockback.

Edits for more thoughts: It probably works this way due to some sort of initial DI/SDI thing. I noticed that I was warping down when I got hit. The reason why we can tech is because Down B puts us into the air, so we can SDI down into the ground to tech.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Interesting. I didn't expect that with Jiggz down smash honestly. It might work for a while on most dsmashes because if seen that horrible trajectory you get sent at if you DI it badly (dat school's out DI).

I also don't think (haven't tested anything that says otherwise) that it works when you downb in the air. It probably shouldn't matter much but hey good stuff to know. Good **** Delta.


If anyone else wants to play around with it to help us get a better idea of how this works be my guest.

 

[Z'zgashi]

i don't have access to a wii anymore

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

That's unfortunate. Sorry to hear bout all that stuff. They'll calm down eventually. Well maybe you can think of something creative to do with something we already know. Thats how i came up with half of this stuff.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd actually like someone to check and see what the knockback of Snake's fresh Fsmash is at the percent I could no longer Down B tech. I just ran it with Ganon's Fsmash (middle) in Training Mode.

Highest percent for the tech: 105%
Can no longer tech at: 106% on.

Snake's highest percent for the tech: 62%
Can no longer tech at: 63% on.

If anyone has the PSA stuff and wouldn't mind comparing the knockbacks of these two moves at these percents, it'd be great.

 

[Yikarur]

lol that downB teching looks nice.
I was actually assigned to do a write-up about the physiks behind it for the SmashLab (not with the downB but the colliding with the floor in general) but I'm so lazy knowadays and I have so much to do =( and actually I do nothing hahahaha

oh when you test Super Armor Stuff pls use this code:

Spoiler

Decay in Training [spunit262]
048E00A8 4800000C

it gives accurater results in the end ^.^ so double check everything with this code pls. If you didn't, use your collected % and try lower once (it's always lower because fresh move have more knockback)

oh and you should always test "fresh" and "used once" percentages because that is the greatest difference.


E: at the down bstuff: AWESOME I think you don't even know what you discovered there but it's AWESOME xD

 

[Delta-cod]

My Wii isn't hacked so I can't actually run that code. I could try and run something like it in normal versus and use handicaps for percents, or something. The moves I used should always be fresh on you anyways. =P

But yeah, I'll test it again with one move stale later today, when I get time. I've got practice this morning.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I had this discovered a while back yika lol i only just got someone (Delta <3) Testing it. As for the Double Jump thing if we want really accurate %'s sure but It doesn't really matter as of now because we dont even have too many characters done. If its easier for the lazy people on the boards to use training mode, i have no problem with that. It gives us a ball park so testing the actual stuff will be easier later on.

Well Delta seems to have taken a liking to Down B teching lol does anyone want to tackle one of the other projects? (RAINBOW CRUISE RELEASE OPTIONS <3?)

 

[Delta-cod]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3gO6w_5eyo

A way to deal with Game and Watch's Up B. The vid's about Pikachu, but I would assume that we can do the exact same thing with our Nair. Actually, it should technically work with any move, but Nair is probably the best.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

So far this works with Mario/Lucario, need help testing with others as my brother won't be able to play for a while.

It's quite simple...

QCDI (Quarter-circle directional influence) Up then towards Falco repeatedly while mashing jump. The moment you hit the ground, if done correctly, you'll bounce up higher than normal either just in front of his face or directly over him, allowing you to jump over/footstool him depending on your timing. Simple as that.

As I said, I was unable to test it with characters other than Mario/Lucario in a non-wifi setting because my brother isn't able to play at the moment. If someone can help me test this, it would be great to see who all can pull it off.

Works with Mario/Lucario at 0%+, Falco cannot chaingrab me using this.

Edit1: I searched both AiB and SmashBoards for this, but could not find anything. Sorry if it's already been pulled up before.

More interesting stuff i found lurking other boards anyone up to testing this? even though im pretty sure we can still get dair'd

 

[Yikarur]

I don't get it.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah, it's pretty confusing. Is there any video to show what difference is being made?

 

[Davidlazer]

Alright guys, I actually did something for once, and got some grab release data. These are Yoshi's grab releases from the ledge, and if one is marked with a "Yes," that character can recover onto the stage with one or more jumps. If that character is marked with a "No," then that character can only recover to the ledge with their second jump.

Here it is:

Yoshi's Grab Release from Ledge Recoveries.

Yes = Gets on Stage X29
No = Gets on Ledge X10
LOL= Neither X0


Mario = Yes
Luigi = Yes
Peach = Yes
Bowser = No
Donkey Kong = Yes
Diddy Kong = No
Yoshi = Yes
Wario = Yes
Link = No
Zelda = Yes
Sheik = No
Ganondorf = No
Toon Link = Yes
Samus = Yes
Zero Suit Samus = Yes
Pit = Yes (Multi-Jump X1)
Ice Climbers = Yes
R.O.B. = Yes
Kirby = Yes (Multi-Jump X1)
Meta Knight = Yes (Multi-Jump X2)
King Dedede = Yes (Multi-Jump X3)
Olimar = Yes
Fox = No
Falco = No
Wolf = No
Captain Falcon = No
Pikachu = Yes
Squirtle = Yes
Ivysaur = Yes
Charizard = Yes (Multi-Jump X2)
Lucario = Yes
Jigglypuff = Yes (Multi-Jump X0)
Marth = Yes
Ike = No
Ness = Yes
Lucas = Yes
Mr. Game&Watch = Yes
Snake = Yes
Sonic = Yes

 

[Silent Beast]

Nice, Jigglypuff can just float back. Good work.

 

[Poltergust]

Interesting stuff, but I do have a problem with down-B teching. It's not about the technique itself, but it's overall usefulness. If you have enough time to do a down-B before you get hit, why can't you just shield?

That quarter-circle DI to get out of Falco's chain-grab looks really cool, though. I hope it's not some joke.

 

[Yikarur]

you can't quarter circle DI a throw thats why I wrote "I don't get it"
and yes Polt you're somehow right with "just shield" but this means also that we can do grounded downB safely.
If we get it too early, you see the result. thats somehow good to know.

 

[Delta-cod]

Down B teching makes it so that it's safe to use Down B in riskier situations. If you get hit, you can tech. If not, you get the Down B off. Win win.

 

[Poltergust]

OK, I see what you guys mean.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Yep. Makes Down B safer and if you get the tech you can probably punish afterwards. Now Polt wanna do something to contribute to the thread <3?

 

[Poltergust]

I can't with my super-laggy TV here. I can only really practice stuff at Smashfests and tourneys, unfortunately. =/

 

[Yikarur]

lol lag tvs are so fail.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I can find you something to do thats so easy your TV wont even matter probably. No Johns Polt <3. I have stuff we should get tested that isn't even up there as yet.

 

[Poltergust]

Well, lay it on me, then.

 

[bigman40]

For SSed Jabs (Sweetspotted) data:

The percentile range will begin from 0% - 200% with you checking every 10%. You will check how much frame advantage Yoshi has against the character from either jumping or shielding whenever it is possible for them. In order to test for the information, go into training mode and begin at zero percent (MAKE SURE YOU'RE USING FRAME ADVANCE CODE!). Take control of the CPU (P2) and input a jab while frame advancing. when the jab hits, hold down shield for both characters and wait until one pull up their shield (For Yoshi, it is when he begins to get into a fetus position). The second one character begins shielding, count how many frames it takes for the other character to shield. The format follows:

If Yoshi shields first: Yoshi has frame advantage
If Opponent shields first: Opponent has frame advantage
If both shield at same time: No frame advantage for either character.

After writing down the information, test again for what frame the opponent can jump in relation to when we begin shielding. These numbers are not the same as when the opponent can shield!!!! The format I explained above is the same for this method.

The format I've made for the work is in excel. The characters on listed in the first column going all the way down in alphabetical order. The percents are listed from 0% to 200% in the rest of the columns (All in one row!). When listing the information, I only noted a negative number with the minus sign. If it's positive, leave the number as is (meaning no sign). For denoting the frame advantage when opponent is jumping, write the information in a parenthesis only!



For Shield advantage data:

Use the frame advance code!

Firstly, you're going to have Yoshi shield during an opponent's attack. You'll be taking down how much frame advantage we have in relation to said attack on our shield. You'll need to use these to gather information:

Frame advance data from other character boards

And to get the actual amount of frame advantage Yoshi has, you'll need this equation:

(BLOCKHITLAG + BLOCKSTUN) - HITLAG - (DURATION - HIT) = FRAME ADVANTAGE

For mostly all cases, you can assume Hitlag to be one more than blockhitlag + blockstun. If you don't have the information from character boards to come up with the frame data information, then do this with frame advance.

First, you'll initiate the attack on Yoshi's shield (Hold Yoshi's shield while doing this). Count how many frames it takes to hit the shield and record the number it actually hits. Then, both characters will be frozen for a set amount of time. During this, you can let go of Yoshi's shield, and count how many frame they are frozen. When you see the opponent beginning to move, you can then write down the duration as blockhitlag. Now begin counting the amount of frames it takes for Yoshi to begin unshielding (the opponent if finishing his attack during this). When Yoshi begins to unshield, write down the number as blockstun. Hitlag will be one more than the numbers you've just gotten. From there, all you do is write down how long it takes for the move to go from start to finish (include the startup) without hitting a shield. That is the duration of the move and you subtract the startup (hit)from duration.

An example would be something like this: (these numbers are fake)

Mario Fsmash on Yoshi's shield:

Blockhitlag ~ 20
Blockstun ~ 5
Hitlag ~ 26
Duration ~ 45
Hit ~ 12

(20 + 5) - 26 - (45 - 12) = -32 frame advantage.

This means that we have 32 frames to do something vs Mario's Fsmash (if shielded).

Now, to make stuff slightly easier to read, subtract that amount with 17 (Yoshi's unshield animation), and write that down in parenthesis. After you've done all of that, you can move on to the next move/character. THIS METHOD IS EXTREMELY TEDIOUS, BUT IT FAIRLY SIMPLISTIC TO DO.