Anyone feel like Sheik is overrated?

[Supbros]

I know a lot of people think sheik is top tier, but I feel like with the correct spacing tools she can really struggle against defensive options. I would love to hear anyone's opinion on this.

 

[Othayuni]

Are you approaching this from an angle of trying to learn sheik? I can tell you all about how to get around various defensive setups if you'll tell me which ones. I might be a little underqualified to address rosalina at the moment. I'm still working out a few kinks with her.

But to address your original question, I love my baby.

 

[Orion*]

She just can't kill lmao. Character is top tier tho

 

[Othayuni]

Yo hold my earrings sheik can kill like WHAT, she just needs proper positioning and judgment. Her finishers require more situational awareness and proper setup than most characters but she can consistently kill at around 120%. It's about pushing someone up against the edge with a side smash, nailing them with a bouncing fish while they're recovering, using a vanish counter in the right place at the right time, doing a down throw in to a double jump uair, that sort of thing.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

She just can't kill lmao. Character is top tier tho

Amen! It's hard if the opponent doesn't want you to kill them.

 

[Zankoku]

If her kills are situational, it's not consistent lol.

She has issues killing at efficient %s, but her overwhelming safety and mobility allow you to approach the game patiently so it works out.

 

[Othayuni]

I agree with the statement about safety and mobility and the patience that allows. Sometimes I do have to let a person get to 180% because I'm unable to create a good opening for a proper finisher. On the other hand, sometimes -I- survive that long because Sheik's so slippery it can be hard to hit her with a smash.

But I maintain sheik -can- be very efficient with the right precision, even if she has to work harder for it than other characters. She can be mutually consistent and situational through consistently creating good situations.

 

[hiramsthoughts]

No doubt she's very good, but she is overrated. I'd say she'll end upin 5th or 6th.

 

[vypex]

I encounter this problem a lot against skilled players who i've chipped away up to 180ish and can't seem to land anything, I think it is mostly against people who also play sheik as they know what to avoid and what areas not to be in, although i despise these types of fights they do build character as sometimes you will have fights that you can't seem to finish, It makes you think creatively.

 

[suarsuar]

I would take having the most options in the game over a back throw that kills at 100, , through and through.

 

[Smasher89]

If you say hightier i think shes way underated, atm she might even be S tier. Shes the best combogame(maybe getting beaten by rosaluma at taslevel/diddy kong dthrow), really fast, a spike, projectile, a safe 2hitcombo that does over 30dmg for a relatively low commitment. Starting to feel after playing her as secondary for a little while that she prob is the best char in the game, mainly because fair and speed.

 

[Master Raven]

She has trouble killing but if you make use of her mobility and fast attacks efficiently then you can basically chip people to death while they're going to have a very hard time consistently getting inside your space. For the most part she's going to rely on her raw kill power primarily for whiff punishing and bad positioning on your opponent's part. Her kill potential shines the most offstage, where she can afford to go in pretty deep thanks to her improved recovery and the new ledge mechanics in this game.

 

[FierceFox]

I think she is overrated because of her lack of KO moves. She shouldn't be as high on the Japanese tier list. Maybe BEFORE the most recent update she was up there, but I don't think so anymore.

 

[False]

Sheik is really rewarding at low level, but she falls a bit at top level. She's definitely one of the better characters, however.

 

[OoohShiny]

I think its the other way round. The lower your skill is the harder it is to play with her. Since her smashes are hard to hit and she flies off pretty easily, the lower your skill is and the more often smash hits actually hit, the worse she become. However, once you start get goin hot with evasion and stuff she becomes playable.

 

[CruS]

Perhaps she is just bad at first, as it is tough to kill your opponent, but once you learned how Sheik kills, she is very rewarding with good mixup and evasion and recovery. Then when you reach top level, she falls a bit again due to other characters being even more flexible and has stronger options instead of many "weaker" ones.

 

[Smasher89]

Metaknight was at first considered "not soo good" in brawl for the same reason shiek is now just saying.

 

[Judo777]

Metaknight was at first considered "not soo good" in brawl for the same reason shiek is now just saying.

That was because people were stupid and didn't look at all of his moves lol.

Sheik will remain very good, but she is definitely over rated right now. She kills so much later than the other top characters on average that over time she will start struggling. Obviously it can be overcome but it will be much more difficult and require you to outplay the opponent more.

Eventually people will stop getting hit by bouncing fish and LOL vanish. Seriously vanish has like 65 frames of startup lol it doesn't feel much faster than Falcon punch.

 

[BestNameEver]

Metaknight was at first considered "not soo good" in brawl for the same reason shiek is now just saying.

Doesn't MK have his shuttle loop, broken edgeguarding, and U-air strings to help him out though? As well as D-smash? Sheik doesn't really have any tools like that.

 

[Hiino]

I thought her edgeguarding game was pretty good too? What with her bouncing fish, bair, vanish, numerous jumps making it safe to reach very far off the edge...
Also her fair which can combo into itself and other aerials, dthrow into uair (to some extent at least?), the chaingrab (has it been removed yet?)...

I'm not sure if Sheik's overrated, not being able to KO easily certainly is bad, but with her speed and versatility, she should be decent at racking up damage and surviving until she gets an opening.

 

[BestNameEver]

She does have very good tools and above average edgeplay, but nothing absurd that makes up for the lack of a solid kill move like MK did. And walling an opponent till 180% and bairing them isn't as viable a strategy now because of friggon rage.

 

[TKD]

Nah; Sheik is awesome. The rest of the cast is underrated, LOL

 

[lRasha]

Eventually people will stop getting hit by bouncing fish and LOL vanish. Seriously vanish has like 65 frames of startup lol it doesn't feel much faster than Falcon punch.

Vanish has its uses. It's great to go from barely using it to randomly throw ing it out on the ground as a surprise attack.

It's useful to use when you can predict an air dodge also. The opponent will get familiar with your Fair strings. If Sheik gets you in the air, the opponent might predict a usual fair. Sheik can jump and do Vanish instead. It's a positive way to look at the start up time of Vanish since the opponent might air dodge during that time.

It's use for killing off stage as well. One technique that can be done is run towards offstage and time Vanish right after getting off the ledge. This will make Sheik slide out horizontally while using Vanish at the same time. I can do this as the opponent is coming to the ledge versus jump out and Vanish. Of course, Sheik can kill offstage in other ways.

Also, if you and the opponent are offstage and below the ledge, Sheik can end up killing his opponent if the opponent gets caught in his Vanish recovery.

Another perk is that Vanish's reappear part can hit an opponent. This makes Vanish a little safer if the opponent isn't shielding.

All in all, Vanish should be used wisely.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Overrated, but still High/top tier. Especially since she got nerfed harder than Greninja, yet actually went up a place, when Greninja went down like 5.

 

[Tristan_win]

Overrated, but still High/top tier. Especially since she got nerfed harder than Greninja, yet actually went up a place, when Greninja went down like 5.

This is due to the removal of VI allowing her to combo more constantly and the nerf of Fair knock back which improve it's combo capability even more.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

This is due to the removal of VI allowing her to combo more constantly and the nerf of Fair knock back which improve it's combo capability even more.

True, but (correct me if I'm wrong) fair also got a damage nerf too.

Bouncing Fish got a nerf (kills at higher percentage than usual), needles got lag (punishable if used unwisely), uair less hits, and a bit more.

True VI was removed + fair was buffed(ish), but she is still overrated. Very much so. She should be from 4th(ish) to 8th(ish). Not top 3 (where she stand in most early tier lists).

 

[OoohShiny]

well, i can only say what i see, and thats that i see another sheik player really, really rarely. She is one of the characters i see like never. Round about as often as Peach or Palutena or Olimar.
While i see Characters like Shulk, Lil MAc, Falcon, Marth/Ike/Lucina in at least 50% of my games. Well as i said, it is my personal believe, but I think Sheik would be played WAY more often if she is as good as many claim.
The believe that Sheik is so extremly good lies in the fact that there are a very few insanely good player with her, making everybody think she is like so good, when in truth you need incredible skill to make her even playable.
Peace,

 

[Tristan_win]

True, but (correct me if I'm wrong) fair also got a damage nerf too.

Bouncing Fish got a nerf (kills at higher percentage than usual), needles got lag (punishable if used unwisely), uair less hits, and a bit more.

True VI was removed + fair was buffed(ish), but she is still overrated. Very much so. She should be from 4th(ish) to 8th(ish). Not top 3 (where she stand in most early tier lists).

Yes it did get a 1% damage nerf. It's not exactly game changing.

Generally speaking I try not to talk about tier placements because I'm not very good at it but Sheik is placing highly and winning tournaments right now, she also has the praise of top level contenders like Zer0 and according to him currently M2k who think she is the best character in the game. Because of this I don't think Sheik will ever drop below top 3, maybe top 4 unless something big is discovered.

well, i can only say what i see, and thats that i see another sheik player really, really rarely. She is one of the characters i see like never. Round about as often as Peach or Palutena or Olimar.
While i see Characters like Shulk, Lil MAc, Falcon, Marth/Ike/Lucina in at least 50% of my games. Well as i said, it is my personal believe, but I think Sheik would be played WAY more often if she is as good as many claim.

PLEASE look at the Video thread, we have over 130 videos on displayed and after this week it might have over 150. Good players are using her.

 

[OoohShiny]

Yes it did get a 1% damage nerf. It's not exactly game changing.

Generally speaking I try not to talk about tier placements because I'm not very good at it but Sheik is placing highly and winning tournaments right now, she also has the praise of top level contenders like Zer0 and according to him currently M2k who think she is the best character in the game. Because of this I don't think Sheik will ever drop below top 3, maybe top 4 unless something big is discovered.



PLEASE look at the Video thread, we have over 130 videos on displayed and after this week it might have over 150. Good players are using her.

When the tier list only matters for the top 1% why bother talking about it?
He said he wants to hear anyones opinion, not only those who are repeating what pros are saying.

Peace,

 

[TKD]

This is due to the removal of VI allowing her to combo more constantly and the nerf of Fair knock back which improve it's combo capability even more.

I think it's due to the balance patch nerfing the other high tier characters harder than Sheik; although I feel that the Greninja nerf was unwarranted. Diddy's incredible power comes from not having been nerfed at all even though he was already the best character pre-patch.

Another thing is that I think Fox and Sonic are underrated; I think they're better than Sheik at least until people start learning to perform pivot halts consistently (the technique is so game-changing that I think it'll scramble the entire tier list; also, it may balance the cast further, since every character can do it).

Lastly, a lot of players don't seem to understand that it's much better to counter or interrupt Sheik's short hop fair than it is to block against it.

 

[Tristan_win]

I think it's due to the balance patch nerfing the other high tier characters harder than Sheik; although I feel that the Greninja nerf was unwarranted. Diddy's incredible power comes from not having been nerfed at all even though he was already the best character pre-patch.

...What, uair use to be a solid kill move now it kills 25% later, bouncing fish was pretty decent but now it killing 20% later, needles use to be amazing even a close range, heck at the time we were looking into combo ability from ground needles but now we can get punished if we aren't careful. Frankly speaking no 'top tier' character got more directly nerf then Sheik... However the globe change in game mechanics aka the remove of VI help make up for these heavy loses.

Another thing is that I think Fox and Sonic are underrated; I think they're better than Sheik at least until people start learning to perform pivot halts consistently (the technique is so game-changing that I think it'll scramble the entire tier list; also, it may balance the cast further, since every character can do it).

Lastly, a lot of players don't seem to understand that it's much better to counter or interrupt Sheik's short hop fair than it is to block against it.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-wii-u.8/league/teams

Sonic is currently the third most used character in tournaments and has third highest 1st, top8, and 16th. I don't think Sonic is really that underrated as he is obviously getting used and is getting results. Fox on the other hand he's rather new to our quickly evolving meta and I honestly can't say how good or bad he is.

Anyways this might just be me but due to the stressful 2 frame window required to do pivots and the fact they been in every smash brother game since Melee (I'm not sure about 64) I don't think they will change the meta that much really. I could very easily be wrong but history has shown that pivots do have a place but it's not getting spammed every few seconds.

 

[TKD]

Thank you for linking the list! I hadn't seen it.

I for one am very happy about Sheik's nerf. I decided to main her after the nerf since I had the feeling that the bandwaggon was going to settle down. I was right; the only top players that main her are Ramin and myself

Oh yeah about the pivot halts, it's almost impossible to do them consistently with the standard Control Stick. I recommend customizing and switching it for a C-stick (being smaller, it's much easier to let go quickly); but other sticks like the one from Nunchuk controllers is also better. I'd wager that even removing the gummy coat from the original one improves performance.

This customization also aids in Melee; it makes the execution for shines into shffls like 10 times easier with Fox (since the short hop requires flicking).

 

[vypex]

Sheik is still top tier, i for one was extremely PO'd after the nerf, first match after 1.0.4 was against a bowser who wasn't all that great but still ended up losing to him after getting to 190 for the first kill and get him up to 130 his second stock and was baffled by how hard it was for me to kill him, just made me change my game planning and started going deep for my off stage kills, I record a good portion of my fights afterwards, especially the one's that I lost and after analysis of my fights i realized the majority of receiving damage came from me going in for the kill when i was usually sitting at around 40ish percentage and my opponent was usually lower 100s, just being over aggressive trying to get the kill, as in brawl this game does have a preference to defensive play and sheik opposition know this, but sheik is at an advantage as she can play a very good defensive game aswell as an offensive game, not too many other characters can switch from offensive juggernaut to defensive shell like sheik can.

 

[Judo777]

Yes I know all about Vanish, I could be wrong, but when I played brawl I would be willing to bet I used Vanish more than any other Sheik player.

The sheik bandwagon is still very real lol. Lots of decently high level players are still playing her. Neo, False, Denti to name a few.

Fair DEFINITELY got nerfed, infact fair was BY FAR the worst nerf sheik received. Sure it "may" string better into itself (not really sure it does) but it no longer has the ability to gimp at all. I tested the day it got nerfed, the move is incapable of gimping Mario lol. You will KO him flat out before he fails to recover. Sheik has plenty of ways to do damage, she does not have plenty of ways to score kills early, so losing an early kill option for another damage string option is not worth it.

To go off what TKD said, YES people don't realize that interrupting fair is better than blocking it. INFACT that is true of most of Sheiks stuff. The more I hear people talk about how great Sheik is (don't get me wrong she is very good this game) the more I realize how little they understood about her last game (I suppose rightfully so).

Seriously people don't believe me, but Sheik is pretty freaking similar to how she was in brawl. I literally play her almost identically and have seen great results (I'm not a big deal, but since the games release I have attended 2 tournaments, won them both and only lost a single game in both). The only major difference in play style is the existence of bouncing fish (a long range aerials punish and mobility option). The thing that has made her good in the new game is a combination of game mechanics changing (ledge snap mechanics and bouncing fish give her possibly the best recovery in the game, everyone is having a bit harder time killing INCLUDING sheik) and slight buffs to a handful of moves (needles knockback change is the biggest one, vanish hitbox increase is another, dthrow comboing but is related to more hitstun). All of her other moves IMO aren't buffed, IMO if I had brawl variants of the rest of her moves I'd be happier (everything killing 15% earlier, uair having less ending lag, dear lord I ftilt and dsmash). But perhaps the biggest buff she received is related to what TKD said.

They removed the ability for characters to just throw out freaking moves non-stop like they could in brawl. Seriously ALL the top tiers (bar Wario) did that crap. They just walled you and freaking didn't respect anything you did because they didn't have to. THAT play style is what hurt Sheik in Brawl. Guess what Smash 4 Sheik is NOT THAT DIFFERENT. She has the SAME problems she had last game, just fewer character exploit it as easily. Sheik is NOT a high priority character, she has trouble killing and is light weight, therefore she LOSES almost all damage trades with the opponent. People often give Sheik WAY too much respect in this game. If shes about to swing..... swing back you will either beat her clean (shes low priority) or trade (still a win for you). Yea its broke that sheik is one of the few characters that can drop specific auto canceled aerials (like nair if used early or crossed up, spaced sweet spot bair, or fair [which I agree is bs its my main complaint]), but guess what? She could do all of that last game too... (except fair) and it didn't matter, because people DIDN'T block her aerials they just did moves and traded and killed her 30-40% earlier than she killed them.

After a while people will quit giving Sheik so much respect and letting her pressure them all day, people will learn that bouncing fish has the SAME range as DACUS and just not be in that range and vulnerable (people had to respect sheik at DACUS range last game, it was one of the few ranges they would respect her at, MK's that played me frequently would block at that range, and if MK has to block it should be respected). Especially since it can be reacted to. She will fall a bit. But her new tools (dear lord bouncing fish helps so many of her brawl problems at the same time) will keep her high tier, because she is pretty good.

 

[Killtrox]

I would take having the most options in the game over a back throw that kills at 100, , through and through.

Speaking of, that back-throw killed me a few times. 70%? Small stage, sorry Sheik.

 

[suarsuar]

Speaking of, that back-throw killed me a few times. 70%? Small stage, sorry Sheik.

Honestly I live for Ness' back throw hahaha.

 

[Koga_]

Sheik is still top tier, i for one was extremely PO'd after the nerf, first match after 1.0.4 was against a bowser who wasn't all that great but still ended up losing to him after getting to 190 for the first kill and get him up to 130 his second stock and was baffled by how hard it was for me to kill him, just made me change my game planning and started going deep for my off stage kills, I record a good portion of my fights afterwards, especially the one's that I lost and after analysis of my fights i realized the majority of receiving damage came from me going in for the kill when i was usually sitting at around 40ish percentage and my opponent was usually lower 100s, just being over aggressive trying to get the kill, as in brawl this game does have a preference to defensive play and sheik opposition know this, but sheik is at an advantage as she can play a very good defensive game aswell as an offensive game, not too many other characters can switch from offensive juggernaut to defensive shell like sheik can.

Glad I'm not the only one that has noticed how defensive play is so favorable in this game

 

[2busywinning]

She just can't kill lmao. Character is top tier tho

She does need more kill power. It gets frustrating having to rely on a fish to connect for an actual decent percentage kill. Not to mention that useless grenade :/ I get most of my kills with her by gimping and bairs usually.

 

[Killtrox]

She does need more kill power. It gets frustrating having to rely on a fish to connect for an actual decent percentage kill. Not to mention that useless grenade :/ I get most of my kills with her by gimping and bairs usually.

Grenade has some pretty solid edgeguard capabilities.

Edit: But even more solid SD capabilities.

 

[Kiyosuki]

This is just how I see it, but the thing about Sheik is I feel more than almost any character in the game that her performance is almost entirely dictated by the skill level and creativity of the player using her. She has a bit of everything for every scenerio in the Smash meta, great gimping potential, solid tilts and aerials that are all quick and straight to their distinct point, not the greatest projectiles but -some- projectiles with situational uses, solid recovery. Most of all though and the biggest reason for me thinking this, is her mobility I think is potentially limitless. She may not be -the- fastest but she's damn near and the player always has full control and combine that with her solid, no nonsense all-round moveset you get a character who's only limited to the players' ingenuity and reflexes.

So in short, yes in a way she is "overrated" a bit but only in the sense that she's what the player brings to the table more than the other top tiers imo. Some matches, her characters' kit itself isn't going to hand you silver platter opportunities without effort.