Anyone else want better projectile play?

LovinMitts

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#1
I don't know about you guys, but it seems like most of the projectiles in Smash 4 really suck. Especially when it comes to moves meant to be projectiles for the sake of projectiles that don't really kill or have any secondary effects. Moves like Blade Beam, Mechakoopa Cannon, Falco's Lasers, Luigi's Fireballs, etc, etc.

Just for the heck of it, I'm gonna list every projectile I can possibly consider "good" from Smash 4:
  • Loid Rocket (Slow enough to approach behind, has a hurtbox to eat other projectiles)
  • Sheik's Needles (Fast, long range, the charge can force approaches)
  • Bullet Arts (Strong if charged, decent range, cancellable charge, not a ton of ending lag)
  • Peanut Popgun (cancellable charge, has decent knockback for the range it has)
  • Mega buster lemons (pretty much completely non-committal)
  • Robo beam (Huge range, can be aimed)
  • Most of Pac-Man's fruit (versatility, can force approaches by charging)
That's 7 moves

When Smash 5 comes around, I think it'd be neat to see characters that are meant to be zoners that *actually have* good zoning tools. On the flip side, I also think characters (particularly the heavies) should get tools to deal with projectiles better. It'd be cool to see the devs go the 2D fighter route in giving certain moves the property of being invincible to projectiles-- moves like DK's dash attack, or Ganon's Wizkick.

(Powershielding is cool, but unless projectiles become good and non-committal to the extent they were in Melee, it'd kinda punish the player making the aggressive move, which isn't something you want in a game that's likely to already be either slightly defensive, or very close to balanced between the two.)
 

SneaselSawashiro

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#5
Just simply make it so that neutral game is more emphasized. Projectiles should just be both good and/or situational, not too crazy imho.

But hey, I'm a dumb scrub after all these years, so what do I know other than balancing a dream-text fighting game on my deviantart?
 

LovinMitts

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#6
Projectiles dont need to kill or have secondary effects to be good.
I know, but so many projectiles in Smash 4 are there, but they seems to be intentionally balanced to where they're lacking any actual utility. Like, why would you ever use Falco's laser? It's got a million frames of lag on the end that make it (almost) never worth bothering to use. Same goes for Samus missiles in most situations. Villager's rocket is a good example of a really good projectile that doesn't have a secondary effect on hit. It just happens to be fairly non-committal form of pressure since it can be walked behind.
 
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#7
Sheik Needles, DH Can, DH Gunman, Villagers Slingshot, Lyoid, Megaman Pellets, Megaman Sawblade, Pacman Fruit, Hydrant, Shadowball, Aura Sphere, Luigi Fireball, Hadoken(?!), Chargeshot, Gyro, Lazer from R.O.B. (not great but fine), Gordo, Fox Lasers, Toon Link Bomb, Link Bomb, Toon Link Boomerang, Pit Arrows, Limit Bladebeam, Pikachu Thunder, Pikachu Thunderbolt, ZSS Stungun, Ness PK thunder, Lucas PK Fire, Autoreticle, Mario Fireball, Diddy Banana, Yoshi Egg, Peach Turnip, Lucario Force Palm, Greninja Shuriken....and the list goes on I give up.

Every projectile I listed ranges from really good to situational but useful. Projectiles are great in Smash 4. I love them to death but they certainly don't need to be given too much of a buff in 5.

Tbh I think projectiles are fantastic as they are now.
 
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Atem

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#8
I think projectiles in the game are at a good state now so that camping is minimal. But the purpose of projectiles (other than fox’s lasers) is to prevent the opponent from getting close (with all used being secondary). Villager is an example with the sling shot to protect against incoming approaches. I personally don’t think we need any buff to projectiles other than the aforementioned Falco lasers which suck but do have their uses. I think that projectiles are perfectly fine other than that and I don’t think they should change.
 

MERPIS

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#9
Yo what about Villager's fair and bair
and SHADOW BALL JESUS H WHO MAKES A LIST THIS TERRIBLE
 
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LovinMitts

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#10
Yo what about Villager's fair and bair
and SHADOW BALL JESUS H WHO MAKES A LIST THIS TERRIBLE
Shadow Ball isn't *that* great (Mewtwo would be a bit much if he had a projectile that was super good since he's already pretty good without one), but yeah, I missed villager's fair/bair, you're right.

Sheik Needles, DH Can, DH Gunman, Villagers Slingshot, Lyoid, Megaman Pellets, Megaman Sawblade, Pacman Fruit, Hydrant, Shadowball, Aura Sphere, Luigi Fireball, Hadoken(?!), Chargeshot, Gyro, Lazer from R.O.B. (not great but fine), Gordo, Fox Lasers, Toon Link Bomb, Link Bomb, Toon Link Boomerang, Pit Arrows, Limit Bladebeam, Pikachu Thunder, Pikachu Thunderbolt, ZSS Stungun, Ness PK thunder, Lucas PK Fire, Autoreticle, Mario Fireball, Diddy Banana, Yoshi Egg, Peach Turnip, Lucario Force Palm, Greninja Shuriken....and the list goes on I give up. [/SPOILER}

Every projectile I listed ranges from really good to situational but useful. Projectiles are great in Smash 4. I love them to death but they certainly don't need to be given too much of a buff in 5.

Tbh I think projectiles are fantastic as they are now.]
Like half of those fall under "projectile for the sake of having a projectie" or are just bad. I'm not saying EVERY projectile needs to be super good, but zoner characters kinda fall flat because of how committal or straight up bad a lot of projectile moves are.

Fox lasers are bad, Ness PK Thunder is bad (the projectile), Lucas PK Fire is meh, Gordo is god awful, force palm (while "technically" a projectile) isn't even a projectile, and autroreticle is one of the worst moves in the game. I would go on, but I shouldn't need to explain why 75% of the moves you listed are "meh" to just awful
 
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Shinuto

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#11
Shadow Ball isn't *that* great (Mewtwo would be a bit much if he had a projectile that was super good since he's already pretty good without one), but yeah, I missed villager's fair/bair, you're right.



Like half of those fall under "projectile for the sake of having a projectie" or are just bad. I'm not saying EVERY projectile needs to be super good, but zoner characters kinda fall flat because of how committal or straight up bad a lot of projectile moves are.

Fox lasers are bad, Ness PK Thunder is bad (the projectile), Lucas PK Fire is meh, Gordo is god awful, force palm (while "technically" a projectile) isn't even a projectile, and autroreticle is one of the worst moves in the game. I would go on, but I shouldn't need to explain why 75% of the moves you listed are "meh" to just awful
Im starting to feel you have an extremely under developed understanding on what makes a "good" projectile
 
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#14
Clearly you don't know jack about shadow ball
I'm trying to avoid being rude but this...this right here.

Shadow Ball is incredibly good. Shadow Ball is a significant reason why Mewtwo is high tier.

Shadow Ball isn't *that* great (Mewtwo would be a bit much if he had a projectile that was super good since he's already pretty good without one), but yeah, I missed villager's fair/bair, you're right.



Like half of those fall under "projectile for the sake of having a projectie" or are just bad. I'm not saying EVERY projectile needs to be super good, but zoner characters kinda fall flat because of how committal or straight up bad a lot of projectile moves are.

Fox lasers are bad, Ness PK Thunder is bad (the projectile), Lucas PK Fire is meh, Gordo is god awful, force palm (while "technically" a projectile) isn't even a projectile, and autroreticle is one of the worst moves in the game. I would go on, but I shouldn't need to explain why 75% of the moves you listed are "meh" to just awful
You are looking at them in a vacuum as opposed to what they do for the character they are attached to.

Dedede is a low tier. However his ledge trapping with Gordo and his giant normals make getting off the ledge a chore for a bunch of characters.

Lasers for Fox don't need knockback or to be a killmove or whatever. Fox can use them to get little extra percents here and there in between exchanges which is good enough for him. His kit makes good use of his lasers.

PK Fire does what its supposed to do. It chips away at shields and will force approaches against a bunch of characters. Lucas likes not being the one to approach if he doesn't have to.

Force Palm with high aura is a dangerous poking tool that also can net a sexy early kill with a good read. "Awful"...once again I'm really trying to be nice here but you are making it challenging. (And yes it is a projectile.)

Autoreticle was one I put in my list to be cheeky. It isn't "good" in a vaccuum but in many matchups for Palutena it tells the opponent "You are approaching me." Which she can abuse easily. Also its hella annoying to get around for people with little experience against her and tilt loses games.

I play Palu and autoreticle isn't "good" but it is "situationally useful." It also is part of her jab lock strings...so yeah. The move ain't as bad as people say it is, still not "good" but yeah.

Tl;dr don't look at moves in a vaccuum. I can't even guess why you'd say Shadow Ball is bad. What more could that move have to offer other than adding Lucario's Charging Damage from Aura Sphere. Shadow Ball does almost anything a character could want in a single projectile.
 
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Skyblade12

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#16
I'm trying to avoid being rude but this...this right here.

Shadow Ball is incredibly good. Shadow Ball is a significant reason why Mewtwo is high tier.

You are looking at them in a vacuum as opposed to what they do for the character they are attached to.

Dedede is a low tier. However his ledge trapping with Gordo and his giant normals make getting off the ledge a chore for a bunch of characters.

Lasers for Fox don't need knockback or to be a killmove or whatever. Fox can use them to get little extra percents here and there in between exchanges which is good enough for him. His kit makes good use of his lasers.

PK Fire does what its supposed to do. It chips away at shields and will force approaches against a bunch of characters. Lucas likes not being the one to approach if he doesn't have to.

Force Palm with high aura is a dangerous poking tool that also can net a sexy early kill with a good read. "Awful"...once again I'm really trying to be nice here but you are making it challenging. (And yes it is a projectile.)

Autoreticle was one I put in my list to be cheeky. It isn't "good" in a vaccuum but in many matchups for Palutena it tells the opponent "You are approaching me." Which she can abuse easily. Also its hella annoying to get around for people with little experience against her and tilt loses games.

I play Palu and autoreticle isn't "good" but it is "situationally useful." It also is part of her jab lock strings...so yeah. The move ain't as bad as people say it is, still not "good" but yeah.

Tl;dr don't look at moves in a vaccuum. I can't even guess why you'd say Shadow Ball is bad. What more could that move have to offer other than adding Lucario's Charging Damage from Aura Sphere. Shadow Ball does almost anything a character could want in a single projectile.
While I agree with most of this, I'd like some clarification on Force Palm. I've always considered it more of a disjoint than a projectile. It doesn't actually travel, does it?
 

jwillenn

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#17
Wii Fit Trainer's soccer ball is one of my favorites in FG history. There are a lot of ways to send her ball flying for unique trajectories and uses in mixups. Heck, one of those ways actually involves using a very powerful and health replenishing Sun Salutation. So you're using one projectile to power another. See my icon/avatar pic? That's from my gameplay. It is one of my favorite follow ups to a Header Cancel. Can you guess the steps and describe the trajectory it constantly results in?

Don't make me whip out my animated gifs, which don't even tell the entire tale!
 
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#18
More varied projectiles like:
Something like Menat's orb from SFV,
Some Snake-like grenades,
and some projectiles akin to Peacock's from "Skull Girls" who has a really fun zoning style of play where you can utilize a variety of close, mid, and long-range projectiles.

^ Some stuff like that would really help out smash's projectile game.
 
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ryuu seika

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#20
More varied projectiles like:
Something like Menat's orb from SFV,
Some Snake-like grenades,
and some projectiles akin to Peacock's from "Skull Girls" who has a really fun zoning style of play where you can utilize a variety of close, mid, and long-range projectiles.
^ Some stuff like that would really help out smash's projectile game.
And this shows us exactly why you're wrong. You're comparing Smash, a movement-heavy game about semi-close-quarters combat, to Skullgirls, a game about playing keep-away with varied projectiles and high knockback, stage resetting, long range melee attacks.

Smash isn't like Skull Girls. It's not about hiding behind a wall of projectiles and making the approach hell, it's about the footsie that goes on in a mid-stage neutral and using projectiles to bring you into that state.

Projectiles in Smash are inherently worse than those in Skull Girls because they're not designed to make the approach hard. Just necessary.

If you try and camp against just about any character's projectiles, you're in a bad position and letting your opponent controlhow you dodge, jump and block. Thus, you're forced to approach to try and get damage in yourself and regain some control. Yet doing so puts you in a predictable and potentially punishable position.

Unless you're Link, then you have the kit to play Skull Girls lite. Or you're Villager or Mario and can use projectiles to cover your own approach. Or you're Samus or Mewtwo and force a response just by having your projectile charged.

Oh and Snake's grenades? Sheik got those.
 
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Reila

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#21
I really enjoy playing projectile characters in this game more than in any other. In other fighting games, I was more of a grappler player (used to main Clark and Blue Mary in The King of Fighters, for example, when the series wasn't garbage), but in Smash, I am all about the zoning and the fun with projectiles. Mega Man's Metal Blade being likely my favorite of them all.

Because of the movement options present in Smash, not only there are more ways to play around projectiles (compared to a game such as the aforementioned The King of Fighters, but also Street Fighter, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat...), there are also more ways to play with projectiles (things like Z-dropping a projectile over the opponent isn't a thing in any other fighter I can think of).

Deeply hoping that Inklings have a lot of projectile play, as they should have, as a character coming from a shooter.
 
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#22
While I agree with most of this, I'd like some clarification on Force Palm. I've always considered it more of a disjoint than a projectile. It doesn't actually travel, does it?
It doesn't matter what WE consider it. The game considers it a projectile. Although it is unique in that t it will still hit the person reflecting it if it is large enough. It's a weird projectile/disjoint hybrid. That might just be Force Palm reacting with Palutena's reflector I'm not sure. If you can reflect it, it is a projectile.
 
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#23
And this shows us exactly why you're wrong. You're comparing Smash, a movement-heavy game about semi-close-quarters combat, to Skullgirls, a game about playing keep-away with varied projectiles and high knockback, stage resetting, long range melee attacks.

Smash isn't like Skull Girls. It's not about hiding behind a wall of projectiles and making the approach hell, it's about the footsie that goes on in a mid-stage neutral and using projectiles to bring you into that state.

Projectiles in Smash are inherently worse than those in Skull Girls because they're not designed to make the approach hard. Just necessary.

If you try and camp against just about any character's projectiles, you're in a bad position and letting your opponent controlhow you dodge, jump and block. Thus, you're forced to approach to try and get damage in yourself and regain some control. Yet doing so puts you in a predictable and potentially punishable position.

Unless you're Link, then you have the kit to play Skull Girls lite. Or you're Villager or Mario and can use projectiles to cover your own approach. Or you're Samus or Mewtwo and force a response just by having your projectile charged.

Oh and Snake's grenades? Sheik got those.
Good point. But the whole projectile game in Smash 4 is far weaker in my opinion than it was in Melee, or in something like Skull Girls. In Melee, Falco's SHL is one of his best options in the neutral because its fast, it covers a lot of ground, it deals a good amount of hit stun, etc. and lets a good Falco dictate the pace of a match. In Skull Girls, Peacock has a moveset that allows her to do the same. I know I didn't explicitly mention this in my post, but I miss the style of play where it came down to how skilled a player was at using their projectiles, and how good the opposing player was at dealing with them. There aren't any characters with a scary projectile game in Smash 4 (In my opinion). It's filled with slow startup and recovery times for projectile moves, it's all just really slow paced, which makes it a lot less intimidating. And charged projectiles in Smash 4 aren't that scary either. Unless you're using them as a close range mix-up in a combo, a stylish combo ender, or something like that, they're pretty reactable. While Smash 4 Link can kinda have a good projectile game, I would still like a character with an inherently good projectile game (Peacock, Melee Falco), not a kinda-good-sometimes one.

Yeah I forgot about Sheik's Side B lol
 

Skyblade12

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#24
It doesn't matter what WE consider it. The game considers it a projectile. Although it is unique in that t it will still hit the person reflecting it if it is large enough. It's a weird projectile/disjoint hybrid. That might just be Force Palm reacting with Palutena's reflector I'm not sure. If you can reflect it, it is a projectile.
Good to know. Thanks for the info. :)
 
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#25
The only thing I want is for Samus' missiles and super missiles to not be easily destroyed, and for Charge Shot to eat more projectiles, rather than being stopped so easily.
 

Snatch Steal

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#26
Projectiles, huh?



There are some pretty obviously good projectiles in Smash 4 but it's a bit difficult to use them to get in sometimes due to how strong Shields are. Banana and Needles are the projectiles used by top tiers, and are likely as good as they are because Sheik and Diddy have good grab games.

I could potentially see a heightened focus on shield pressure if the newcomers have the tools to play around it and the power of shields is tweaked. In that case, we could see a lot more projectile usage in neutral to look for openings.
 

Zinith

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#28
Sheild pressure is something that I would love to see back in Smash 6. In 4/5, if you let up for even a second, opponents recover almost completely. Shields go up and down way faster than in previous games and it makes them way too safe, IMO.
Yoshi players would love for that to happen...
 
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