Anyone else happy grab shenanigans are gone?

LDSenpai

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#1
I loved how these characters have always played but to play them "optimal" you would have to wobble or chaingrab and you would get a lot of hate. Wobbling ruined a lot of fun neutral exchanges that smash has, imo. I'm glad that these are gone and now I can just play to win while having fun. Does anyone else agree/disagree, I'd like to hear others opinions.
 
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#2
I loved how these characters have always played but to play them "optimal" you would have to wobble or chaingrab and you would get a lot of hate. Wobbling ruined a lot of fun neutral exchanges that smash has, imo. I'm glad that these are gone and now I can just play to win while having fun. Does anyone else agree/disagree, I'd like to hear others opinions.
It's good that chaingrabs and wobbling are gone. But in SmashU, Nana can't act while popo is grabbing or throwing which I am unhappy about. Nana can no longer follow up with an attack after popo throws nor can she damage the foe while popo is holding the opponent. You use to be able to do things like:
Popo d-throw -> Nana aerial.
Or
Popo grab -> Nana down-B (for extra damage), just to name some examples.
These can no longer be done, and desync in general seems more complicated which hurts the character tremendously imo.
 
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Diddy Kong

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#5
Yes! At first, having the Ice Climbers back was a big eyesore to me. But that quickly changed, as in the exact same trailer I saw Nana basically doing nothing while Popo grabbed a character. So it seems adressed, which am honestly glad about!
 
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#6
Yes! At first, having the Ice Climbers back was a big eyesore to me. But that quickly changed, as in the exact same trailer I saw Nana basically doing nothing while Popo grabbed a character. So it seems adressed, which am honestly glad about!
I disagree. Nana not being able to do anything while popo grabs and throws is just overkill. What did people complain about in the past regarding the ice climbers? Infinite handoffs/chaingrabs and wobbling. Neither of those things would exist in the game anyway due to the mechanics so nerfing Nana in that way is pretty unnecessary and it's also unrelated to the problem. It's a lazy, lazy way to address their issues in the past. You can remove wobbling and chain grabs without ruining Nana's ability to follow up with an attack after popo throws. It's not like that was broken. It bothers me because the Project M team managed to nerf their broken mechanics from past games WITHOUT ruining other things that made them great which were not broken, like reliable desync techniques and nana follow ups after popo throws. Sakurai and the smash team should take a couple of notes from the PM team in regards to how the ice climbers should be addressed.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#7
Sadly, these changes do come with a cost. Apparently, it's no longer possible for Nana to save Popo if he gets grabbed; a severe nerf as a whole, since that literally destroys the purpose of keeping Nana alive.
 

MercuryPenny

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#8
Sadly, these changes do come with a cost. Apparently, it's no longer possible for Nana to save Popo if he gets grabbed; a severe nerf as a whole, since that literally destroys the purpose of keeping Nana alive.
you still have better damage output, kill power, recovery, and neutral (via desyncs) when you have nana around
 

FunAtParties

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#10
I'm not. It was part of their appeal. This, the stf dair coming back, and the unnecessary upair change are really dampening my excitement for them this time around.
 
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#11
I don't see the problem with these changes. If Nana could still act while Popo had someone grabbed, it would lead to straight up unfair kill confirms like Nana charing a Smash attack, Popo throwing into a free Nana Fair spike, Popo backthrow into Nana footstool resets, and some other nonsense I'm forgetting.

Ice Climbers were not designed around having ridiculous grab setups, they were made to be strong when there are two and weak when there are one. Maybe it's because I played a lot of ICs on Brawl's awful wifi, but I spent a lot of time learning how to actually play Ice Climbers rather than learning chain grabbing, so this change is nothing but good for me.

Ice Climbers in Ultimate have a ton of speed, a bunch of power and good mobility, not to mention they still have their desyncs, which is what actually matters. They're good characters and always have been, but the grab shenanigans always overshadowed their actual moveset, now all the people who want to play Ice Grabbers can go pick up a character who's actually balanced around getting grabs (Bowser or DK) and the actual Ice Climber fans can play Ice Climbers without getting hate, it's a win win.
 
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#12
I don't see the problem with these changes. If Nana could still act while Popo had someone grabbed, it would lead to straight up unfair kill confirms like Nana charing a Smash attack, Popo throwing into a free Nana Fair spike, Popo backthrow into Nana footstool resets, and some other nonsense I'm forgetting.

Ice Climbers were not designed around having ridiculous grab setups, they were made to be strong when there are two and weak when there are one. Maybe it's because I played a lot of ICs on Brawl's awful wifi, but I spent a lot of time learning how to actually play Ice Climbers rather than learning chain grabbing, so this change is nothing but good for me.

Ice Climbers in Ultimate have a ton of speed, a bunch of power and good mobility, not to mention they still have their desyncs, which is what actually matters. They're good characters and always have been, but the grab shenanigans always overshadowed their actual moveset, now all the people who want to play Ice Grabbers can go pick up a character who's actually balanced around getting grabs (Bowser or DK) and the actual Ice Climber fans can play Ice Climbers without getting hate, it's a win win.
I would be in agreement with your statements if ice climbers actually had a reliable way to desync. It seems like the ice climbers weren't designed to be played desynced either. So on top of all the nerfs they're getting, we also have no reliable way to desync them. I would be all for these Nana nerfs IF sakurai actually favored desync techniques instead. Except he doesn't. He doesn't emphasize desyncing as a core part of the character which goes to show that he doesn't seem to understand what makes the character so rewarding and competitively viable.

As of now, the only real way to desync is to pivot F-smash which is pretty unreliable and CLEARLY not a mechanic the developers implemented on purpose. And the worst part is, even if someone discovers a more reliable way to desync them, sakurai can just patch. So unless sakurai changes his mind about what the ice climbers SHOULD be, I'm afraid we are stuck with them as is, unfortunately. In melee, there were numerous more practical ways to desync them, and the smash development team is taking that all away alongside their infamous grab follow ups..leaving us with a very dull character imo.

P.S: Nana being able to follow up with f smash or F air after popo throws doesn't necessarily have to be broken. If sakurai actually designed the character around this idea I'm sure they could balance it somehow. But instead they just said "nope".
 
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AMcsx2

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#14
I don't see the problem with these changes. If Nana could still act while Popo had someone grabbed, it would lead to straight up unfair kill confirms like Nana charing a Smash attack, Popo throwing into a free Nana Fair spike, Popo backthrow into Nana footstool resets, and some other nonsense I'm forgetting.

Ice Climbers were not designed around having ridiculous grab setups, they were made to be strong when there are two and weak when there are one. Maybe it's because I played a lot of ICs on Brawl's awful wifi, but I spent a lot of time learning how to actually play Ice Climbers rather than learning chain grabbing, so this change is nothing but good for me.

Ice Climbers in Ultimate have a ton of speed, a bunch of power and good mobility, not to mention they still have their desyncs, which is what actually matters. They're good characters and always have been, but the grab shenanigans always overshadowed their actual moveset, now all the people who want to play Ice Grabbers can go pick up a character who's actually balanced around getting grabs (Bowser or DK) and the actual Ice Climber fans can play Ice Climbers without getting hate, it's a win win.
I don't think it would be unfair at all. ROB's down throw buries the opponent which also leads to a free smash attack so I don't see the problem in letting Ice Climbers do something similar. Also, since the opponent can tech footstools any infinites they could've had are gone. They may have good power and mobility but all of that goes away when Nana's gone which is now really easy to do since a simple grab -> back throw can separate them and Nana can't hit them out.

It looks like Sakurai nerfed their desyncs setups too cause from what we've seen in the demo, brawl desyncs are gone with the only known way to desync them being through a pivot forward smash which seems extremely unpractical to do in a real match.
 

l!nk_aut

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#15
I would worry less about the desynchs though. I remember in the beginning of brawl when everyone was sad because the spotdodge desynch was gone but then they found all these amazing desynchs that are maybe even more practical. Something will be found sooner or later I guess!
 
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#17
I would worry less about the desynchs though. I remember in the beginning of brawl when everyone was sad because the spotdodge desynch was gone but then they found all these amazing desynchs that are maybe even more practical. Something will be found sooner or later I guess!
Thats a nice thought. Except for the fact that if sakurai sees something he doesn't like he will simply patch it..
 

NashRiskin

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#18
Having played the E3 demo, and 4 rounds as Ice Climbers, I have to say they feel extremely "honest" this time around (in a good way). When they are together they hit like a truck, bair and up air are insanely good and quick! Side B Squall has a killing finisher at the end when they are together. Yes we lost a lot of specific safe options like being grabbed and having a get out of jail free card (I'm imagining this is dead for Rosalina too, so more of a broad change of "no one can escape a grab for free"). To me (assuming only the demo version, not knowing what might change) Ice Climber kinda fit in that camp with little mac and ike, super powerful on stage but struggle off stage.

Losing grab shenanigans certainly lowers their traditional potential but other changes will hopefully offset this and the hype of figuring out the new Icies meta will be a ton of fun. And remember, down throw to Up air is ragingly satisfying....
 
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#19
I played them in Melee and still play them in PM. The fact that nana can’t do anything out of throw is disappointing, but makes sense because we’re jerks and would figure something busted out. If desyncs are cool I might give them a shot, but they don’t interest me as they seem even less of a puppet/duo and more of a biffed sopo who still has to deal with nana idiocy to keep the buffs
 

Smasher89

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#20
Removing the hardest to learn techskill in the game because "I dont like when my opponent gets control for a few seconds", while still retaining the biggest weakness, and add even more ways to exploit it, this iteration might even get ICs worse then in PM, which already is intentionally made bad.
Of course iI'm sad, since it is unique gameplay to the character, that can not be found in literally ANY other game!
 
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FunAtParties

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#21
Removing the hardest to learn techskill in the game because "I dont like when my opponent gets control for a few seconds", while still retaining the biggest weakness, and add even more ways to exploit it, this iteration might even get ICs worse then in PM, which already is intentionally made bad.
Of course iI'm sad, since it is unique gameplay to the character, that can not be found in literally ANY other game!
PM IC's ended up being pretty good after they fixed them. I remember Techboy whooping Thunderz' DK with 'em
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#24
So many people reacting to the IC's viability this early. A character's potential doesn't get realized on day one. This is an early build of the game and once it hits our homes, people will get plenty of time to lab with them to see what works and what doesn't. Plus patches will be a thing.
But since the internet is basically knee jerk central...
 

AMcsx2

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#25
So many people reacting to the IC's viability this early. A character's potential doesn't get realized on day one. This is an early build of the game and once it hits our homes, people will get plenty of time to lab with them to see what works and what doesn't. Plus patches will be a thing.
But since the internet is basically knee jerk central...
They straight up removed an entire aspect of their game and even guys like ESAM who had a lot of time playing the E3 build said they were bad. I could understand the ICs getting nerfed but with the way they're going about it, its no wonder people are reacting the way they are. Obviously their full potential isn't realized yet, but I don't understand why they would choose to nerf them so much when all their jank is already removed with the new mechanics. I think the reactions are justified to an extant.
 
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#26
Removing the hardest to learn techskill in the game because "I dont like when my opponent gets control for a few seconds", while still retaining the biggest weakness, and add even more ways to exploit it, this iteration might even get ICs worse then in PM, which already is intentionally made bad.
Of course iI'm sad, since it is unique gameplay to the character, that can not be found in literally ANY other game!
MvC3. Or literally any other Marvel game. Or for a more recent example, Dragon Ball FighterZ.

So many people reacting to the IC's viability this early. A character's potential doesn't get realized on day one. This is an early build of the game and once it hits our homes, people will get plenty of time to lab with them to see what works and what doesn't. Plus patches will be a thing.
But since the internet is basically knee jerk central...
Here's a positive knee-jerk from me! Nana fair has a ridiculous 45 degree spike angle.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#27
They straight up removed an entire aspect of their game and even guys like ESAM who had a lot of time playing the E3 build said they were bad. I could understand the ICs getting nerfed but with the way they're going about it, its no wonder people are reacting the way they are. Obviously their full potential isn't realized yet, but I don't understand why they would choose to nerf them so much when all their jank is already removed with the new mechanics. I think the reactions are justified to an extant.
ESAM also said that it's one thing to play a demo for a few hours as opposed to having the final game in your household and playing it for days and gaining a much better understanding of the mechanics and the characters, their techs and combos. I still feel we need to wait.
 

Smasher89

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#29
Cool, watched a few of his newly uploaded vids, Snake in the first vid looks very dangerous in a day 1 perspective!
 
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#30
I honestly think this is for the best. With this ridiculously potent and imbalanced tool all but gone for good, it allows for the devs to balance them in a more nuanced manner.
 
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#31
There is something that I'm wondering about that is hard to put into words but I'll try. Ok, here goes... So Nana goes into a celebrating animation while popo throws and she can't do anything while popo grabs, we know that. But what IF the climbers are desynced and the following sequence occurs: Popo Down B -> Nana down B (keep in mind they're desynced) -> popo grab(when popo is grabbing, Nana is still in her down b animation)
Is it possible for Nana to follow up after popos throw after her down b animation finishes, taking into account she can't celebrate when popo throws because she is till finalizing her down B animation? It sounds weird the way I put it but hopefully someone understands. Basically, can you cheat the game to NOT make Nana taunt while popo throws due to a desync that involves Nana being occupied finalizing the previously inputted move?
 
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#32
There is something that I'm wondering about that is hard to put into words but I'll try. Ok, here goes... So Nana goes into a celebrating animation while popo throws and she can't do anything while popo grabs, we know that. But what IF the climbers are desynced and the following sequence occurs: Popo Down B -> Nana down B (keep in mind they're desynced) -> popo grab(when popo is grabbing, Nana is still in her down b animation)
Is it possible for Nana to follow up after popos throw after her down b animation finishes, taking into account she can't celebrate when popo throws because she is till finalizing her down B animation? It sounds weird the way I put it but hopefully someone understands. Basically, can you cheat the game to NOT make Nana taunt while popo throws due to a desync that involves Nana being occupied finalizing the previously inputted move?
Hardest of reads
 

MERPIS

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#34
I’m just gonna preach right here
ICs are at the least high tier due to their stupidly good damage potential via grab and their aerials are incredibly safe on shield
 
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