Anyone else finding Robin lacking?

HenryXLII

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#1
Robin main since day one of Sm4sh, and I gotta say I am a little iffy on this version of Robin. Not in viability. Viability was never an issue for me, its how the character plays now. They have gotten major quality of life changes, but for everything positive they got it feels like they lost something. I don't like being negative on day one, but I got a semi decent sized list of complains.

-- Starting without Levin Sword is dumb. I was pretty neutral going into this change but I quickly realized it makes offensive play even less viable at the start of the match. Before I could chose if I wanted to apply a little pressure with levin aerials, or retreat into projectile camping. But now attacking my opponent directly at the beginning of the match is really unrewarding and risky. So I find I have to immediately run to projectile camping, which is terrible in some match ups. I am I used to defending myself without levin, but this feels about as bad as Rosalina starting without Luma.

-Archthunder feels really useless now, where before it was one of Robin's funnest tools. The damage is only decent and there are no follow ups possible. It does decent shield damage, but it really feels like a slightly better elthunder now, except it might be slower. Not sure.

-I have tried spiking with Elwind, but I have yet to see if it is actually possible. I felt it could be interesting with the new angles they gave it, and with how important edge guarding is in this game, it is a little disappointing if this utility is removed.

-I am having a ton of trouble getting Levin out, and this did not use to be a problem for me. Anyone have a work around for this? My C stick is on tilts so that I can use them out of dash more easily, and I think that is causing the problem. And how do I get the Levin out with short hop nair?

-Also Tomes got heavily nerfed! These things used to pack quite a punch, gave a shield break set up, and could net some nifty kills. Now they really are nothing special.

I really do appreciate the quality of life changes for our tactician, but the play style feels really different and on the surface not as interesting, especially because of how buffed Archfire got. (Making the turtle playstyle even stronger). So I am a little unsatisfied since Sm4ash Robin was about alternating between defense and offense. You play the character long enough, you come to grow really attached to these little details. I am sure I will come to appreciate new things with the character I simply have not discovered yet. I was just wondering if any other Robin mains are feeling this way, and ways around any issues you have found.

Happy Smashing!
 

Pytonrage

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#2
Arcthunder is nerfed but it still has uses. You still get a downthrow-nair out of it for 42% dmg and 47% dmg with Levin Nair. Speaking of Levin Nair. You can no longer use the C-Stick to change into Levin aerials. You can now use A+B instead. So if you have bronze sword out and you want to Levin Nair, jump and press A+B (has to be activated in your control settings).
 

HenryXLII

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#3
Arcthunder is nerfed but it still has uses. You still get a downthrow-nair out of it for 42% dmg and 47% dmg with Levin Nair. Speaking of Levin Nair. You can no longer use the C-Stick to change into Levin aerials. You can now use A+B instead. So if you have bronze sword out and you want to Levin Nair, jump and press A+B (has to be activated in your control settings).
I would of never thought of A+B so thank you! How does Archthunder into grab work this time? Do you need to have a distance between you so you can catch up to the projectile? Or can you still pull it off up close?
 

Pytonrage

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#4
You can no longer grab your opponents up close with arcthunder. You need at least 1 dash distance for the grab to work. So after arcthunder you just quickly flick the analog stick once for a dash dance and then gab. At low percents you have a downthrow-nair combo. I use Thoron for mid and high percents though because it can kill at mid percents with a forward throw into Thoron.
 

Chemtrail

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#5
I was also a Robin main since day 1 of smash 4 and got reasonably good with him, even managed to make top 10 in the city I was playing tournaments in. I noticed a lot of the same things. He definitely has a slightly different play-style now, I'm hoping he doesn't have to be too turtle-y to still play him well. Like you, I always liked how I could switch from an offensive to defensive play-style really quickly. Hell, people in tournaments used to always tell me they liked how aggressively I played with Robin, it really would be a shame if that's not a good option anymore. Haven't given up on him yet, but at the same time I am going to be looking at some other characters to main as well.

You can no longer grab your opponents up close with arcthunder. You need at least 1 dash distance for the grab to work. So after arcthunder you just quickly flick the analog stick once for a dash dance and then gab. At low percents you have a downthrow-nair combo. I use Thoron for mid and high percents though because it can kill at mid percents with a forward throw into Thoron.
It's good to hear you can still grab out of arcthunder, even if it seems it might be more difficult to do so (haven't had the chance to test this out myself yet). It seems like Thoron is going to be the better choice in a lot of scenarios where you would use Arcthunder previously. My roommate was playing online against another Robin, and said he got meteored by Elwind, so hopefully it is still possible to spike with it, I think this is what I will try to figure out next. It might be that the Elwind needs to be aimed down to spike (if we can spike diagonally though, Elwind has the potential to be extremely useful). Here's to hoping that after some experimentation Robin will be even better than he was before.
 
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Pytonrage

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#6
Elwind spikes work fine. I'm not that bold to go off-stage too much so I didn't practice it too much but you can also still Elwind Cancel into BAir on the ground for a nice kill. Also the tome recovers insanely fast now, so thats a huge buff. In general you have multiple ways now to recover your weapons faster, like smash with bronze sword or kill with it to recover Levin Sword faster, or killing with a tome to recover it faster.
Arcthunder is good for low percents because it has grab combos for huge damage. But at like 40-50% you want to switch to Thoron to get really early kills like DThrow-NAir-Thoron or FThrow-Thoron. I still dont know if there are other setups with it but if your opponent is off-stage and you bait the Airdodge you can snipe them with it for free.
Also Checkmate is still in the game but only on plattforms.

Also Ignis is in the game but works with Arcfire-DAir now. I didn't find too much use for it though because you can consistently kill your opponents with Arcfire-Arcfire-Levin BAir from both sides. It's a true combo and kills really early. (That's because you cannot simply SDI out of Arcfire anymore) I highly suggest that you practice this setup. You will use it A LOT. Also Arcfire-Short Hop Nosferatu is a free heal. Works at all percents.
Another setup is Arcfire-Double Jump Thoron but only at like 50-60%
 

HenryXLII

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#7
Elwind spikes work fine. I'm not that bold to go off-stage too much so I didn't practice it too much but you can also still Elwind Cancel into BAir on the ground for a nice kill. Also the tome recovers insanely fast now, so thats a huge buff. In general you have multiple ways now to recover your weapons faster, like smash with bronze sword or kill with it to recover Levin Sword faster, or killing with a tome to recover it faster.
Arcthunder is good for low percents because it has grab combos for huge damage. But at like 40-50% you want to switch to Thoron to get really early kills like DThrow-NAir-Thoron or FThrow-Thoron. I still dont know if there are other setups with it but if your opponent is off-stage and you bait the Airdodge you can snipe them with it for free.
Also Checkmate is still in the game but only on plattforms.
I can confirm that Elwind still spikes. I got my first spike recently. Arctunder also still applies really good shield pressure, and I usually get a grab if they end up blocking.

I tried using my tilts out of dash in some recent matches and it turned out pretty well. Dash into Up tilt instantly puts them above you for more up tilts, up smashes, and arias. Forward tilt is a decent get off me tool, and down tilt might lead to some set ups. I think incorporating these into your gameplay is going to be key for being more aggressive as Robin.

The only match up I feel really hopeless in is against any of the Links. They can block all projectiles by simply standing still, including Thoron. Not only this, but their projectiles all have more durability than Robin's, and the constant arrows really do not let me charge my thunders, usually forcing me to approach. Anyone got any advice for this match up? I am thinking of charging thunder in the air, but that seems really risky.

Also tip, I find air dodging to the ledge is really important for Robin because Elwind runs out much faster in this game. Please be mindful and conserve your paper.

I started enjoying the character a lot more when I realized that I am not playing Sm4sh Robin anymore, and adapting my play style around that fact.
 

Chemtrail

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#8
Awesome, it's good to see Robin hasn't change quite as drastically as it initially seemed. Thanks for all the good combo tips Pytonrage, I'm starting to think most of the issues I have with Robin in this game is just bad (and previously good) habits carrying over from Smash 4.

I tried using my tilts out of dash in some recent matches and it turned out pretty well. Dash into Up tilt instantly puts them above you for more up tilts, up smashes, and arias. Forward tilt is a decent get off me tool, and down tilt might lead to some set ups. I think incorporating these into your gameplay is going to be key for being more aggressive as Robin.

The only match up I feel really hopeless in is against any of the Links. They can block all projectiles by simply standing still, including Thoron. Not only this, but their projectiles all have more durability than Robin's, and the constant arrows really do not let me charge my thunders, usually forcing me to approach. Anyone got any advice for this match up? I am thinking of charging thunder in the air, but that seems really risky.
I definitely need to experiment more, with tilting out of dash. It's a pretty huge change that I'm not taking full advantage of.

As for Link matchups, this is mostly coming from my Smash 4 experience, but what I've found works best is using Arcthunder and Elfire for zoning purposes, and focusing on doing damage with melee attacks. Arcthunder is nice because it forces Link to stay where he is for the duration of the attack even though his shield blocks it (if you are close enough, this also leaves him open to other attacks). The goal is to condition your opponent to expect melee attacks, and try to land some surprise projectiles later in the fight. Robin is ultimately a poor matchup against Link though, so fighting against a good Link usually is an uphill battle.
 

Pytonrage

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#9
Arcfire doesnt work against zoning and projectile based characters because every tool cancels the fire completely in this game. Against Pikachu's Thunderbolt spam I just charge my tome mid-air. It's easier than in Smash 4 because you can cancel your charge with a jump. Practise mix ups with B-Reverse and Wavebouncing and your opponent really gets confused and will appoach you instead. Works really good against Links that spam arrows and cant catch your landings anymore.
I personally never use the tilts out of dash for Robin specifically. I will try some up-tilts but its really unsafe to go out with Robin.

My biggest problem with Robin right now is getting out of disadvantage. Robin has really poor out of shield options. You cant shield grab anymore for free and neutral air doesnt always hit. And just jumping away is not an option against fast characters.
 
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#10
Arcfire was buffed in a few ways: Lasts slightly longer, holds opponents slightly longer, fireball flies off farther, I could go on. In exchange, it clanks against just about everything and doesn't trigger. This is our new combo starter.

Get used to Levin Nair, as it is our bread and butter, and with the new Elwind, our gimping options just increased drastically.
 
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#11
As a Robin main in 4, I’m pretty disappointed in her. The angles of elwind are really hard to land hits on, and you have to press really hard on the analogue stick to pull out levin sword.

I dunno. I played her more than any other character in 4, she was my go to. But so far I’ve been picking K Rool or Ike whenever I need the job done well.
 

Tilamok

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#13
Hey! I was also a Robin main in Smash4 and managed to get to a decent competitive level with him. I think my main concern is about the tomes. They used to be a key part for my set ups in Smash4 and a really effective way to kill, but I am not sure what to do with them anymore. Damage is not great and there is almost no killing potential unless they are already off stage. I'll be practicing possible usses for the tomes this week but I'd love to hear if you have any ideas
 

Pytonrage

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#14
I am having the same issues here. I know Thoron kills much earlier than in Smash 4 but the problem is, you never hit with it anyways. The start up animation for Thoron takes forever, so every player can just react to it. If this has some consistent kill confirms I won't complain but the only thing I know is fthrow-thoron but Robin cannot grab for free in this engine anymore, since they nerved Shieldgrabs and even if I get then, the combo doesn't work under platforms anyways.
So losing my Thunder and Elthunder in Neutral just to charge all the time to fish for the kill, doesnt pay off at all. I want to be able to use my Thunder pokes all the time with the ability to wavebounce with the tome as a movement tool.
Thunder got also buffed indirectly by the engine. If you initiate a dash and buffer shield you have lag until the shield comes out so that makes projectiles more annoying and almost force you to jump and then they get hit by my Levin Sword or land in Arcfire traps.
 

Krystofr

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#15
Personally, I think of Thoron as a next best option of kill potential if you already went past a-thunder to try for damage and they ended up getting into kill percents anyways.

I'm still generally new to the competitive scene that is Smas h Ultimate (let alone 4, I didn't have a Wii U so I skipped that title), but I'm really enjoying Robin more, despite her quality of life nerfs or exchanges.
 

Odd_0ne

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#16
Their disadvantage state, grab game, and arc thunder nerf is my only problem with them but so far I'm enjoying them a lot more than smash 4. Not c-sticking for Levin sword will take time getting used to tho
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#17
I don't understand the changes they made to Arc Thunder, it no longer works as a combo starter like it did in Smash 4. You could do plenty of follow ups into an Aerial, Arcfire, Grab or throwing a book. Doesn't this go against their design?
I also don't see the purpose behind not having Levin Sword at the start. It unnecessarily increases their disadvantage stage.
I'm hoping the Smash team reconsiders their stance on Robin on future balance patches.
 

Lypion

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#18
I don't understand the changes they made to Arc Thunder, it no longer works as a combo starter like it did in Smash 4. You could do plenty of follow ups into an Aerial, Arcfire, Grab or throwing a book. Doesn't this go against their design?
I think they made it so thoron gets more use. If it still lasted forever everyone would just Arc thunder to smash attack to kill and thoron would be kinda underused like in smash 4. I like it tbh
 

Altais

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#19
I must agree about Arcthunder being little more than a slower, more powerful Elthunder. That said, I would deeply appreciate it if they at least gave the X-blast more hits--if nothing else, to allow time for a follow up. I agree also about the broken tomes having less power. [EDIT] Just now noticed that the match starts with Robin's Levin Sword uncharged. Extremely annoying--I really hope they change that in a future patch. Since I typically use Elthunder at the beginning of the match, I didn't realise up until now just how much of a hindrance it is not to be able to use the Levin Sword immediately.

Also, I would like for Robin's down throw to have less knockback, so he can follow up with a jab. Really wish forward-throw would combo reliably into Elthunder as well.

That aside, however, I do feel that Robin has changed for the better. Mine favourite change is definitely the Levin N-Air. Both his Wind and Fire jab are much more reliable. His Elwind can be angled, making it more useful not only for recovery, but tactical retreats as well. Lastly, his grab and Nosferatu have increased range. One of the biggest things that annoyed me about Robin in Smash 4 was that you'd think a magic user would have more grab range.
 
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Krystofr

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#21
I cant kill a shiek with leven nair at 160 percent from the middle of fd. I'm ****ing terrified of this metagame now. maybe Ill feel better off of network play and in real tourneys again, but I'm really sad and frustrated at my lack of kill power sometimes qq
 

HenryXLII

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#22
I cant kill a shiek with leven nair at 160 percent from the middle of fd. I'm ****ing terrified of this metagame now. maybe Ill feel better off of network play and in real tourneys again, but I'm really sad and frustrated at my lack of kill power sometimes qq

Levin up air and forward air are your best friends for kills, and back throw is very reliable at the ledge. Your edge/ledge guard options are also really good with Levin Nair, Levin Forward Air, and Elwind.

Robin is kind of a "Gotcha" character in this game. Relying on traps and mix ups to get their kill confirms.
 

Zareidriel

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#24
I've been planning on writing a big ol post about all of Robin's buffs and nerfs between Smash 4 and Ultimate and posting it here, but I'm lacking motivation and would rather just go play Ultimate instead. I'm gonna go do that; we'll save the other stuff for the next eternally unfinished Guide. But instead, I'll definitely say overall that though the learning curve continues, I'm not finding Robin at all lacking compared to her Smash 4 counterpart. I'd say that nearly all of her moves (besides Jab 1, possibly others) are pretty much the same or better overall, if you add up the pros and cons of each one.
 
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#25
NOTE: Always have A+B = smash enabled when using Robin. Only way to ensure you get Levin for your airs is to use A+B. If your last ground attack was a tilt your air attack will default to bronze sword using just A for attack.
 

Arthur97

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#26
NOTE: Always have A+B = smash enabled when using Robin. Only way to ensure you get Levin for your airs is to use A+B. If your last ground attack was a tilt your air attack will default to bronze sword using just A for attack.
Not sure it has to be enaboed for that since it's not a smash attack.
 

Zareidriel

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#27
NOTE: Always have A+B = smash enabled when using Robin. Only way to ensure you get Levin for your airs is to use A+B. If your last ground attack was a tilt your air attack will default to bronze sword using just A for attack.
Not sure it has to be enaboed for that since it's not a smash attack.
It's a little misleading, I was gonna clarify; your aerials will indeed be bronze after equipping it when using A for attack. However, aerials should almost always be performed with a C-stick, and that C-stick should be set to Smash - particularly when you're playing Robin. For those in the audience who are unaware, a C-stick set to Smash will always cause Levin aerials when the sword is available.

However, A+B smash IS very useful when you have a bronze sword equipped and want to do a Levin Nair.
 
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Arthur97

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#28
It's a little misleading, I was gonna clarify; your aerials will indeed be bronze after equipping it when using A for attack. However, aerials should almost always be performed with a C-stick, and that C-stick should be set to Smash - particularly when you're playing Robin. For those in the audience who are unaware, a C-stick set to Smash will always cause Levin aerials when the sword is available.

However, A+B smash IS very useful when you have a bronze sword equipped and want to do a Levin Nair.
They may have left off the n and meant nairs, but either way, an in game tip mentions this for nair and says nothing about the smash setting. Going back to my point, I don't think that has to be on for it to work for nairs.

Also, don't tell me how to do my aerials.
 

Zareidriel

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#29
They may have left off the n and meant nairs, but either way, an in game tip mentions this for nair and says nothing about the smash setting. Going back to my point, I don't think that has to be on for it to work for nairs.

Also, don't tell me how to do my aerials.
Hahaha you got it edgelord :laugh::laugh::laugh: pretend all of my suggestions are for everyone else except for you, then. But since you aren't aware, the A+B smash setting is indeed quite necessary for doing A+B levin nairs with the bronze sword equipped. Or actually for doing nairs at all; without A+B smash enabled, you're equally likely to cast Thunder or nair, whichever one you input marginally first.
 

Nah

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#30
Does smash stick in Ultimate do that thing it did in Smash4 where it kind of hinders your aerial maneuverability or no?
 

Zareidriel

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#31
I'm really curious about that myself actually, it's a pretty hard thing to search for. It was so hard for me to notice in the previous game that I have no idea how to test it myself. Issun on the Robin discord thinks that both tilt and smash stick input the direction for one frame, but he's not sure.

Edit: Here's most of the conversation we had afterwards
momentum.png


P.S. Hooray for my 1111th message! :colorful:
 
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#32
It's a little misleading, I was gonna clarify; your aerials will indeed be bronze after equipping it when using A for attack. However, aerials should almost always be performed with a C-stick, and that C-stick should be set to Smash - particularly when you're playing Robin. For those in the audience who are unaware, a C-stick set to Smash will always cause Levin aerials when the sword is available.

However, A+B smash IS very useful when you have a bronze sword equipped and want to do a Levin Nair.
I am not sure why you insist everyone have C-stick set to Smash. I have C-Stick set to tilt and use A+B for arials.
Its far easier to get a smash out with the left stick than a tilt. Why create 2 smash sticks?
 

Zareidriel

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#33
Only for aerials, so that you have full control over your aerial direction with your left stick while being able to perform your Levin up air, Levin back air, etc, even with the bronze sword equipped with the right stick. For example, jump and press back on your left stick while pressing right on your C-stick to do a retreating forward air. When it comes to ground-based attacks like forward tilt and down tilt I fully agree with you, if Levin aerial attacks were always used I would probably switch to tilt stick for a better ground game.
 
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Yonder

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#34
It's just INSANELY infuriating that Robin doesnt have Levin sword from c stick on attack. He had it in 4, why take this option away? I really don't want Robin on smash stick, it's just messes with my muscle memory a lot when everyone else uses it for attack.

But...Robin's tilts are pretty awful so maybe I can make it work.
 
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#35
It's just INSANELY infuriating that Robin doesnt have Levin sword from c stick on attack. He had it in 4, why take this option away? I really don't want Robin on smash stick, it's just messes with my muscle memory a lot when everyone else uses it for attack.

But...Robin's tilts are pretty awful so maybe I can make it work.
Down tilt is descent and up tilt combos after down throw.

But yes, air moves should ALWAYS be Levin if available. Don't know what they were thinking.
Overall I think the NERFS out-weigh the BUFFS Robin received.

BUFFS:
Excellent Elwind
Longer range/longer lasting Arc Fire.
Slightly faster ground dash. Although most characters are faster so limited as a buff.
Thoron kills easier

NERFS:
No longer start with Levin Sword.
No Levin airs with C stick.
Arc Thunder lasts way too short
Arc Fire and Arc Thunder no longer detonate on clang. Easily punched away. WHY!!!
Lack of Block cancel into grab severely hurts a slow character like Robin. Allows for fast characters like other FE's to attack safely and retreat.

Of all the things that need to be changed for Robin to be more competitive, I would say bring back detonate on clang for projectiles.

2nd change would be NEVER ALLOW A HALF ELWIND! If you have enough for the first swipe you should always get the second swipe.
It causes so many stupid deaths. Either that or allow us to toss the book to force a recharge.
Getting stuck with 1 or 2 bars of Elwind is often a death sentence.
 
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Zareidriel

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#36
CrimsonAvenger and Yonder I think you guys are confused. Either that or I've been severely misinformed for a long time...which seems unlikely from my own testing on the subject, but it's possible. Aside from starting without Levin sword, it behaves exactly the same in Ultimate as in Smash 4. When you have a bronze sword equipped (last move was bronze), and your C-stick is set to attack, it would do a bronze aerial with your C-stick. This is why I was forced to play with a Smash C-stick the entire time in Smash 4 as well. If I was wrong about that all along I'm going to feel silly lol.

And then, in both games, if you set your C-stick to smash, you will once again automatically always get Levin aerials when you have any Levin sword left when doing any aerial.

I kinda hate hanging around this thread and trying to set everyone's facts straight or whatever, but I think it's important we're not spreading misinformation either. My apologies to anyone annoyed by my incessant posting and corrections.

The half elwind thing is tricky but you can set yourself straight (even numbered) with another wind jab if you're able to land one.
 
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Nah

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#38
re: Levin Sword and c-stick aerials in Smash 4, the way it worked in that game was that if you did aerials with the control stick+A, you would do the aerial with whichever sword you used last. If you did aerials with the c-stick, it would always be the Levin Sword, for both smash stick and tilt stick. I used tilt stick for nearly my whole time with Smash 4 and never had any problems doing Levin aerials with it (also went a checked it in training mode just a bit ago to be sure).
 

Zareidriel

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#39
If you did aerials with the c-stick, it would always be the Levin Sword, for both smash stick and tilt stick
Haha that really threw me for a loop for a second :estatic: but I tested it just now, and the Levin sword is indeed intermittently bronze with a C-stick set to Attack in Smash 4. Looks like it's based on how hard you smash it. If you're good at smashing your C-stick every time that could be minimized to a very small percentage of bronzes, but if you're paranoid like me you should probably set it to Smash. Both options could actually work, depending on whether you like your Levin aerials or your tilts to be more reliable. I tested it in Ultimate afterwards and it seems to work the exact same way as in Smash 4, when set to Attack it's based on how hard you smash your C-stick when doing an aerial with your bronze sword equipped. It's interesting that there's so much mystery regarding this topic, but Robin is indeed a strange one. If some others could test it as well to verify, that would be appreciated.
 
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#40
Haha that really threw me for a loop for a second :estatic: but I tested it just now, and the Levin sword is indeed intermittently bronze with a C-stick set to Attack in Smash 4. Looks like it's based on how hard you smash it. If you're good at smashing your C-stick every time that could be minimized to a very small percentage of bronzes, but if you're paranoid like me you should probably set it to Smash. Both options could actually work, depending on whether you like your Levin aerials or your tilts to be more reliable. I tested it in Ultimate afterwards and it seems to work the exact same way as in Smash 4, when set to Attack it's based on how hard you smash your C-stick when doing an aerial with your bronze sword equipped. It's interesting that there's so much mystery regarding this topic, but Robin is indeed a strange one. If some others could test it as well to verify, that would be appreciated.
I just tested it out with the c-stick set to tilt attacks and Levin sword came out right when it was equipped and I was able to nair with it by using the A button easily and as well as DAir, FAir, BAir, and up-air with Levin sword by just using the c-stick when its equipped. The same things happens when its set to Smash attack too.
 
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