Any Stages That Could Come Back?

The Young Izzy Iz

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I know that most banned stages are that way for a reason, but assuming you had the power and were compelled to bring back two stages into the Melee meta-game what would they be? Try to validate your answer based on the neutrality of the stage, it's resistance to broken/unfair strategies, and the magnitude of its impact on competitive play.

My choices are Kongo Jungle (64) and Mute City. Kongo Jungle (Melee) would also probably be fine as I think we've really moved beyond the concept of rock-camping. Plenty of counter strategies exist for it now-a-days.
 

SSG SAX GAMER

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I guess I would go with Mushroom Kingdom 1 and 2 because they both are pretty flat and don't have many stage hazards.
 

Pyriuh

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I agree with kongo and mute city 100 percent and that was gunna be my answer until i read you said it. I think they are really good stages and add an extra little bit to normal tournament play you see nowadays, and all us falcon mains would be compelled to go to mute city out of honor :p I would love to see these stages come back because i wasnt around when they were legal, but i agree in that it would be cool to play them seeing how the meta game has developed so much. Kongo jungle is actually legal in my scene for doubles, and i would love it in singles aswell, and the no ledge grabs on mute city would be interesting for new play and more edge guards.
 

Yashoku

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I would rather ban more stages. #BanYoshi'sStory2016

But seriously, I think Kongo could be legal, definitely more tourney viable than yoshi's (sorry westballz).
 

Uchihadark7

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Corneria, Rainbow Cruise and both Kongo Jungles could all come back if more counterpick rules were created. And while we're on the topic, Poke Floats could be totally legal as well.
 
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The Young Izzy Iz

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Kongo jungle is actually legal in my scene for doubles,
That's part of the reason why I think it could come back for singles. We've already seen that it's abuse, to a certain extent, was based on the knowledge of the game we had at the time (or lack thereof).

In terms of Mute City I see it primarily being a counterpick in singles rather than a starter, like PK Stadium. It gives gritty rush-down players a place to go where the opponent basically can't escape them and hurts projectile-users badly; it's basically the reverse of PK Stadium that helps campy players and hurts aggressors. I would see the two as foils in the metagame, essentially.

Corneria, Rainbow Cruise and both Kongo Jungles could all come back if more counterpick rules were created. And while we're on the topic, Poke Floats could be totally legal as well.
As much as I love Pokefloats (and I really, really do) I think that the stage is unquestionably exploitable to a higher degree than some of the others. Fast characters with strong edgeguarding games can basically turn the stage into one massive, non-stop edgeguard situation if they camp the sides of floats then run away once the opponent gets on. Depending on whether or not that strategy could work in the current metagame, for me, would be the deciding factor. If that doesn't turn out to be an issue I'd love for it to come back!
 
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Pyriuh

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What are the chances we could make kongo and mute city happen?
 

Uchihadark7

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I would rather ban more stages. #BanYoshi'sStory2016

But seriously, I think Kongo could be legal, definitely more tourney viable than yoshi's (sorry westballz).
What's the deal with Yoshi's?
That's part of the reason why I think it could come back for singles. We've already seen that it's abuse, to a certain extent, was based on the knowledge of the game we had at the time (or lack thereof).

In terms of Mute City I see it primarily being a counterpick in singles rather than a starter, like PK Stadium. It gives gritty rush-down players a place to go where the opponent basically can't escape them and hurts projectile-users badly; it's basically the reverse of PK Stadium that helps campy players and hurts aggressors. I would see the two as foils in the metagame, essentially.



As much as I love Pokefloats (and I really, really do) I think that the stage is unquestionably exploitable to a higher degree than some of the others. Fast characters with strong edgeguarding games can basically turn the stage into one massive, non-stop edgeguard situation if they camp the sides of floats then run away once the opponent gets on. Depending on whether or not that strategy could work in the current metagame, for me, would be the deciding factor. If that doesn't turn out to be an issue I'd love for it to come back!
Yeah that makes sense. After a couple months of it being legal it would probably be exploited beyond legality, but hopefully that wouldn't happen.
 

Pyriuh

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I would rather ban more stages. #BanYoshi'sStory2016

But seriously, I think Kongo could be legal, definitely more tourney viable than yoshi's (sorry westballz).
I really agree with this, i love yoshi's but i think kongo is more suited than yoshi's just because of the amoint of different play styles on kongo.
 

Uchihadark7

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What are the chances we could make kongo and mute city happen?
Kongo has a decent chance, Mute City doesn't. It's fun and all and there have been great matches on that stage, like Ken vs Sam and Darkrain vs SFAT, but the cars are just too easy to be knocked into and they can cost the whole match.
 

Pyriuh

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Kongo has a decent chance, Mute City doesn't. It's fun and all and there have been great matches on that stage, like Ken vs Sam and Darkrain vs SFAT, but the cars are just too easy to be knocked into and they can cost the whole match.
I dont think it would be like that, with how good everyone jas gotten and the meta has changed, i think would be like the wind blowing on dreamland or randall on yoshi's, and the cars could also be used to combo off of by a good player.
 

The Young Izzy Iz

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He's talking about random factors (the cars) leading to combos or deaths induced by the opponent that otherwise wouldn't have happened. If one player is hit by the cars and popped up while the other isn't and dies, he didn't die because he messed up or lost neutral or w/e, he died because of random occurrences.

I would retort however that the cars aren't necessarily random and that, if this stage were to become legal, it would sort of be expected for people to learn not to stay grounded during the stage transitions.
 

Pyriuh

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He's talking about random factors (the cars) leading to combos or deaths induced by the opponent that otherwise wouldn't have happened. If one player is hit by the cars and popped up while the other isn't and dies, he didn't die because he messed up or lost neutral or w/e, he died because of random occurrences.

I would retort however that the cars aren't necessarily random and that, if this stage were to become legal, it would sort of be expected for people to learn not to stay grounded during the stage transitions.
And what i was saying is that we have learned and gotten so good that we wouldnt be caught off gaurd by the cars anymore, and we would even know how to combo off like grabbing throwing them into the cars and then comboing off of that.
 

Uchihadark7

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And what i was saying is that we have learned and gotten so good that we wouldnt be caught off gaurd by the cars anymore, and we would even know how to combo off like grabbing throwing them into the cars and then comboing off of that.
You can still be meteored or spiked into the cars, plus Mute City doesn't have grabbable ledges.
 

Yashoku

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What's the deal with Yoshi's?
  • Shy guys stifle momentum for a few frames, which can be the difference between landing a hit or getting hit.
  • Randal, unless used tactically with calculation (Randal is predictable, comes out after 10 seconds into the game on the right side which means with the 8 min timer, using the seconds count, when the tens place is odd and the ones place hits 4 Randal comes on the right and when the tens place is even and ones place hits 4 he comes on the left ) often leads to saving people who got spiked or can't make it back to recover which is unfair and should be looked at as intrusive as stage interference that does damage or ko's.
  • The blast line cordinates are absolutely ridiculous, to the point that Kirby can ko fox at 60% mid stage with uair (with terible DI but still... bottom tier KOing top tier at 60 is ridiculous). The cordinates are 348x168 on yoshi's, which to put in perspective batlefeild, the most neutral of all stages is at 448x200 and dream land is 510x250. This is by far my biggest problem with yoshi's and it should be banned if not for singles then at least for doubles.
 

Dark Byte

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  • Shy guys stifle momentum for a few frames, which can be the difference between landing a hit or getting hit.
  • Randal, unless used tactically with calculation (Randal is predictable, comes out after 10 seconds into the game on the right side which means with the 8 min timer, using the seconds count, when the tens place is odd and the ones place hits 4 Randal comes on the right and when the tens place is even and ones place hits 4 he comes on the left ) often leads to saving people who got spiked or can't make it back to recover which is unfair and should be looked at as intrusive as stage interference that does damage or ko's.
  • The blast line cordinates are absolutely ridiculous, to the point that Kirby can ko fox at 60% mid stage with uair (with terible DI but still... bottom tier KOing top tier at 60 is ridiculous). The cordinates are 348x168 on yoshi's, which to put in perspective batlefeild, the most neutral of all stages is at 448x200 and dream land is 510x250. This is by far my biggest problem with yoshi's and it should be banned if not for singles then at least for doubles.
Dude I can't believe that you would badmouth Randall since he's like the best thing about yoshi's. The fact that he is not random is what makes him fair. His position is public knowledge for both players.

Your biggest problem with yoshi's is that Kirby can kill fox at 60 with bad di? Are you kidding? That's like if I said that dreamland should be banned because Kirby can live to 200 against marth. A top tier not being able to ko a bottom tier at 200 is ridiculous right??
 

Yashoku

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Dude I can't believe that you would badmouth Randall since he's like the best thing about yoshi's. The fact that he is not random is what makes him fair. His position is public knowledge for both players.

Your biggest problem with yoshi's is that Kirby can kill fox at 60 with bad di? Are you kidding? That's like if I said that dreamland should be banned because Kirby can live to 200 against marth. A top tier not being able to ko a bottom tier at 200 is ridiculous right??
The Kirby example was just that, an example. Also your example is pretty piss poor because that can only happen if the mart does no attempt to KO.

The blast lines on yoshi's brings a massive aid to specific characters, further than just being a solid counter pick. The horizontal blast line can leave you dead from falco's side smash or down smash at low percents, fox's reflector spike will kill characters who normally live because of the low floor blast line. Marths Fsmash or dair or reverse up b will kill at basically 0%, peaches down smash is just silly on this map, same with her off stage fair at low percents, which also helps sheik, fair offstage is basically a gaurnteed KO on yoshi's, off stage low proped needle will KO from a low recoverer like a Marth trying to sweetspot, this map also reaps huge benefits to characters like yoshi and his knockback resistance or characters who's recoveries are extremely bad benefit on this map as it's no longer debilitating. The list goes on and on, I'm suprised I had to spell it out this much.

Edit: forgot to talk about randal; as I stated in my other post, yes he is not random, and when used tactically by figuring his position and using it it is definitely fair. But no one decides to get spiked and predicts the tragegtory and knows their getting sent into randal. When it saves people by chance it is unfair stage advantage.
 
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KeeganKTK

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I'd like Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's Story to come back from Melee (although I rlly never played Melee due to the lack of a Gamecube console or a Gamecube controler to plug in my old Wii). They had great music and were rlly interesting stages.

For Brawl I really wish they'd keep Spear Pillar. I don't care what you people say but that stage was AWESOME. Back in Brawl's time I was new to smash, didn't know anything about competitive smash and was all like "lets just play this with my sister and good friend just for fun xd", and that stage was awesome. Dialga slowing time, the beam bellow the stage, the stage going upside down, and even Dialga running down from his staircase and crashing on the ground with Roar of Time was a rlly cool thing to see.
 

Dark Byte

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The Kirby example was just that, an example. Also your example is pretty piss poor because that can only happen if the mart does no attempt to KO.

The blast lines on yoshi's brings a massive aid to specific characters, further than just being a solid counter pick. The horizontal blast line can leave you dead from falco's side smash or down smash at low percents, fox's reflector spike will kill characters who normally live because of the low floor blast line. Marths Fsmash or dair or reverse up b will kill at basically 0%, peaches down smash is just silly on this map, same with her off stage fair at low percents, which also helps sheik, fair offstage is basically a gaurnteed KO on yoshi's, off stage low proped needle will KO from a low recoverer like a Marth trying to sweetspot, this map also reaps huge benefits to characters like yoshi and his knockback resistance or characters who's recoveries are extremely bad benefit on this map as it's no longer debilitating. The list goes on and on, I'm suprised I had to spell it out this much.
Lol, the marth example is a joke because what I'm trying to point out is that you're simply complaining about the stage being small. Yes, every move in the game will kill earlier on a smaller stage. You need to realize that this improves the effectiveness of crappy moves more than it improves moves that are already good.

I noticed that you gave a bunch of examples of the top tiers being "op" on yoshi's. newsflash, shiek fair is good on any stage. Fact of the matter is that yoshi's is a great help to mid and low tiers who don't have good kill power. Are you trying to say you want Ganon and bowser and Mario to be even worse than they already are?
 

-ACE-

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IMO:

Of what's legal now, the only one remotely close to warranting a ban would be PS.

Of what's banned, the only ones remotely close to warranting legality are MK2 and maybe brinstar (although brinstar has many faults... it may make the game slightly more balanced). I would say Kongo but jiggs can just rising pound/barrell camp as soon as he gets a lead indefinitely. Japes is super jank with the river god, green greens would make the game too easy for fox. Rainbow cruise is arguably too good for spacies also. Poke floats is way too different and jank, and would change the game a bit too much. Mute city too... No ledge, too many hazards.
 
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Uchihadark7

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IMO:

Of what's legal now, the only one remotely close to warranting a ban would be PS.

Of what's banned, the only ones remotely close to warranting legality are MK2 and maybe brinstar (although brinstar has many faults... it may make the game slightly more balanced). I would say Kongo but jiggs can just rising pound/barrell camp as soon as he gets a lead indefinitely. Japes is super jank with the river god, green greens would make the game too easy for fox. Rainbow cruise is arguably too good for spacies also. Poke floats is way too different and jank, and would change the game a bit too much. Mute city too... No ledge, too many hazards.
Mushroom Kingdom 2's walk off would cause too many early KOs. Brinstar would work pretty good though. And with Kongo 64, it could be banned as a counterpick for Puff. Most other characters wouldn't have unfair advantages on it. I think character-specific counterpicks are a good idea.
 
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ph00tbag

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For my part, I say ban out of hand any stage with permanent features (walls, gaps) that force an aerial approach from above purely based on who achieves the position first. Stages that meet this criteria:

Peach's Castle
Kongo Jungle (Melee)
Great Bay
Corneria
Jungle Japes
Hyrule Temple
Green Greens
Venom
Onett
Mushroom Kingdom 1
Fourside
Mushroom Kingom 2
Yoshi's Story 64 (The cloud isn't truly permanent, but constant short-hopping refreshes its lifespan indefinitely, so it may as well be.)

Of the banned stages left over, Icicle Mountain, Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, Brinstar Depths, Big Blue, and Pokefloats are all moving stages with few or no ledges that overwhelmingly favor characters with high movement speeds, and/or strong recoveries. The only stages left from the currently banned stages are Flatland, Yoshi's Island, Brinstar, and Kongo Jungle 64. I can say Flatland and Yoshi's Island are out because of the walk-offs which favor a corner camping playstyle, but not a whole lot else, although Flatland's hazard is pretty difficult to reliably avoid. Kongo Jungle has some fairly broken camping strategies, which ACE has already pointed out. The only stage, then, where I can't really give a solid reason for its ban is Brinstar. Having been around when the community first experimented with the ban, I'm fairly confident it was purely pragmatic. Basically, everyone banned Brinstar in the CP phase, all the time, and it was undermining the reason we have a CP phase in the first place. But that's it. If any stage ban warrants reconsideration, it's definitely Brinstar. But I don't think the loss is so great with it gone, either way.

As far as legal stages I could understand banning, the only one worth looking at is Pokemon Stadium. But, since its walls aren't permanent, it's pretty much always given a pass.
 

-ACE-

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Mushroom Kingdom 2's walk off would cause too many early KOs. Brinstar would work pretty good though. And with Kongo 64, it could be banned as a counterpick for Puff. Most other characters wouldn't have unfair advantages on it. I think character-specific counterpicks are a good idea.
With the constant fight for center stage going on i I don't think there'd be too many early KO's. There would be some of course but I don't think that many scuffles would take place near the blast zones. For the record, I'd ban PS before adding any stages. But I think it's pretty good how it stands.
 
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The Young Izzy Iz

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IMO:

Of what's legal now, the only one remotely close to warranting a ban would be PS.

Of what's banned, the only ones remotely close to warranting legality are MK2 and maybe brinstar (although brinstar has many faults... it may make the game slightly more balanced). I would say Kongo but jiggs can just rising pound/barrell camp as soon as he gets a lead indefinitely. Japes is super jank with the river god, green greens would make the game too easy for fox. Rainbow cruise is arguably too good for spacies also. Poke floats is way too different and jank, and would change the game a bit too much. Mute city too... No ledge, too many hazards.
Out of curiosity why would you want Brinstar back over Mute City? I know the ledges on Brinstar are a huge deal, but it seems like they both have similar faults in terms of stage hazards and both seem to favor rush-down characters being that they're small and, in Brinstar's case, sometimes force players to fight over a single platform. I'd just like to know more about you're thought process, where's the tipping point?
 

-ACE-

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Tipping point would be no ledge at any point, which makes the stage sorta jank at all times. The only super jank part of brinstar is the lava, which isn't present the vast majority of the time. The break in the stage isn't nearly as jank as no ledge imo, and the cars on mute are almost as bad as the lava. But honestly both stages are pretty bad imo.
 
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Pyriuh

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Tipping point would be no ledge at any point, which makes the stage sorta jank at all times. The only super jank part of brinstar is the lava, which isn't present the vast majority of the time. The break in the stage isn't nearly as jank as no ledge imo, and the cars on mute are almost as bad as the lava. But honestly both stages are pretty bad imo.
I think it really comes down to opinion of what is worse with these two stages, i for one have no stance and enjoy both stages and of course having the opinion isnt wrong, but i also think it would be bad to change the ruleset we have. People never consider how perfect we have of a widely accepted ruleset, and how if we want to change it we will be torn in two like the smash 4 community and stance on stock count and what not. Its another scenario of how its great the way it is but you always want what you dont have.
 

Ravengeance

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I think everyone pretty much covered the reasons with Mute City and most def Kongo Jungle 64. If they brought them back at all I think maybe bringing them back as doubles counter pick stages would be fun. Or maybe in some kind of crew battle scenario where you could really play the matches for FUN.
 

Uchihadark7

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I think everyone pretty much covered the reasons with Mute City and most def Kongo Jungle 64. If they brought them back at all I think maybe bringing them back as doubles counter pick stages would be fun. Or maybe in some kind of crew battle scenario where you could really play the matches for FUN.
In my opinion, certain counterpicks should be banned or only available to some characters/matchups. Sure everyone will say it's unfair, but the Spacies and Jigglypuff have stages where they have an unfair advantage over the opponent while these advantages aren't available to Marth, Ice Climbers, Peach, Falcon, Ganondorf, Sheik etc.
 

Ravengeance

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In my opinion, certain counterpicks should be banned or only available to some characters/matchups. Sure everyone will say it's unfair, but the Spacies and Jigglypuff have stages where they have an unfair advantage over the opponent while these advantages aren't available to Marth, Ice Climbers, Peach, Falcon, Ganondorf, Sheik etc.

I understand your POV on this and yeah like Puff taking you to Dreamland can be like ugh etc but there are a LOT of characters that chain grab spacies on FD. I'm not saying your point doesn't have validity bc there are definitely characters that benefit a lot more from counter-picks and ones that that gain very little but I feeling banning certain stages bc of certain match-ups just would over complicate things. Or we will just eventually end up playing nothing but Battlefield.
 

Tid

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im just saying it'd be super annoying to keep track of what stages are banned for what characters LOL honestly the system is pretty perfect how it is
 

Rewrite

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In regards to the addition of stages to the current roster, some additional rules for counter-picking could be put in place to ensure the selection process is a little more fair i.e. the banning of two stages instead of one. However, with only one stage addition coupled with a second ban it would get harder to properly counter-pick in many scenarios, especially if the new stage is one the banner is comfortable playing on. It may potentially be better to leave the striking at one stage alone.

The main contention about Brinstar is it's lava, but there are more factors at work in play.

The effects the lava has on the match include:
  • potentially saves stocks by bouncing characters back up instead of dying off the bottom
  • leads to extended combos by purposefully tossing people into the lava
  • covers portions of the stage which can lead to temporary stalemates
  • or advantages for some characters
Additional effects of the stage are:
  • extending the platforms out by smashing the tethers tying them to the stage
  • creating a small hole in the stage (with ledges) by smashing the eggs
  • you can recover through the main platform
  • slooooooooooooooooooopes
These offenses aren't so egregious as some may seem to believe, but they aren't ignorable either.

The screen always shakes dramatically before the lava moves so you know when it's coming, even if the timing is randomized. As far as causing stalemates where people sit on one side of the stage, that happens all the time with the fire formation on Pokemon Stadium with it's huge wall. Since the lava will move away far sooner than on Stadium, it's a bit of a moot point.

If the lava ever saves someone's stock enough that they can recover there's no reason you can't just hit them again while they're in hit stun from it.

If you're getting combo'd from the lava it's most likely because you've been spiked or fallen into it. If that's the case your stock was probably saved since that spike likely would have just sent you into the blastzone.

Edge-guarding would be interesting since you can adjust the angle of the platforms to limit your opponent's options for recovery, but with the ability to recover through the stage it could lead to some cool or bizarre interactions.

Jigglypuff would probably benefit the most from this with her ability to just go under the stage and jump up through it. Combined with her up air she could potentially camp under the stage really hard and just poke at you until you cry. Imagine HungryBox at Evo except he has the power to hit you while doing it. You'd have to be pretty tough **** to hit her as she was coming up. A Falco or Marth dair could solve the issue, but not everyone has an answer for this conundrum and even then if she's just buying her time with a stock or percentage lead she's not coming anywhere near you. Jesus Christ, how horrifying.

Falcon and Ganondorf would also see an advantage in being able to grab the opponent from underneath the platform while recovering.

Note: Their recoveries still suck.

For the most part though landing on the stage is a bad idea no matter what since you suffer the landing lag of your up special. Unless you're a spacie in which case you have just basic landing lag. You would be able to hit them anyways though. If they space their recovery so they just barely breach the platform you'll have the time to see where they're going and punish (especially if they're coming from as low as possible in which case they're going straight-up). If they go over they're above you and ripe for punishment.

I think the biggest offender though are the eggs. A Fox or Falco multishine will chew right through them, and if you send the opponent off stage your free to abuse this as you wish. The only thing that comes of it though is stalemate. Even if they respawn really quickly, the ability for a player to potentially halt the match and force a stalemate at will shouldn't exist. I think the eggs alone are a valid deal breaker.

All things considered, I would prefer the return of Mute City if not for it's lack of ledges making recovery all but impossible once off stage. The stage transformations have decent layouts that almost never lead to stalemates or platform camping not possible on other stages and there isn't a walk-off at any point.

The cars are easily less offensive than the lava since when they come by it's usually during transformation sequences and you can retreat to the main platform as it reappears or one of the floating platforms of the transformation.

if you're being juggled by the cars it's most likely because you were hit into them or you messed up.

The ultimate deal breaker is no ledges though, making recovery nigh impossible no matter whom you are.

If I had to pick one to return, I would choose Brinstar if only because the lack of ledges on Mute City is such an offense.

Personally, I would rather them both stay gone.
 

iAmMatt

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frankly, I'd rather see more bans than added stages. My ideal ruleset would be all games starting on battlefield, and dream land, yoshi's, and fd as cps
 
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