Any PM 3.6 Beta Lucas tips?

[NTHPlayr]

So PM 3.6 beta is out and I'm wondering if there is anything new to Lucas. I want to improve on the neutral game for my Lucas, any tips?

 

[D e l t a]

1. Read my guide.
2. Read the answer I gave to Ant in a thread about neutral game created like yesterday.
http://smashboards.com/threads/neutral-game.408236/
3. Watch Pink Fresh & Neon- they're the best at Lucas' neutral imo

 

[20PK]

In terms of 3.6 changes, the biggest is probably perfect DJC PKFs no longer being possible; they go the regular jumped PKF aerial difference instead of the grounded difference. This does mean you can't mindlessly spam PKFs from the other side of the stage as easily, but Hyperflame argues that since no one got them 100% of the time Lucas' neutral is virtually unchanged anyway. Magnet approaches in neutral are preferred I think. A good player yesterday pointed out that I go for bairs too much off magnet - while magnet does send the opponent behind you, since bairs send them down you'll instead, to extend the combo, want to wavedash back and uair or something.

 

[D e l t a]

This does mean you can't mindlessly spam PKFs from the other side of the stage as easily, but Hyperflame argues that since no one got them 100% of the time Lucas' neutral is virtually unchanged anyway.

Um....I strongly tend to disagree. While throwing PKF full stage seems mindless, that's the only distance they're truly safe at against a large part of the cast. Myself, Neon, and maybe a few others, consistently landed full PKF 80% or more of the time. The times I didn't land the 'perfect' PKF, I wanted them to land higher to catch certain character's hurtbox's.

Yes, this won't drastically alter Lucas (just as Fox's 3.6 changes won't either). However, against characters such as Marth, Fox & Ike, Lucas suffers from the main keepaway projectile he had in 3.5 and before.

 

[Badge]

This does mean you can't mindlessly spam PKFs from the other side of the stage as easily, but Hyperflame argues that since no one got them 100% of the time Lucas' neutral is virtually unchanged anyway. Magnet approaches in neutral are preferred I think.

To me the main utility for perfect PKFs was them making powershielding PKF a 50/50 because the opponent had to guess at what speed the PKF would come in. Now for characters with good shield to hurtbox ratio it is very possible to powershield 95% of Lucas' PKF attempts in neutral and cancelling them out is also easier with non-lingering hitboxes. While that's less potent by itself and easier to determine without guessing, you can still mix up the height at which the PKF comes out, though.

Also for the above reason not getting perfect PKFs consistently often was actually good, because having inconsistent execution makes for an unreadable mixup.

 

[D e l t a]

not getting perfect PKFs consistently often was actually good, because having inconsistent execution makes for an unreadable mixup.

"Being bad is a mixup"

Agreed with everything else tho. Reasons I dislike this change just as much as removal of 3.0 Fair range (priority & hitbox don't matter as much to me)

 

[Badge]

"Being bad is a mixup"

inconsistent technically != bad. If somebody were to train playing an instrument to the beat until he would time every note perfectly, his music would sound boring and artifical. This is a similar situation. If you always get perfect PKFs when you want them, I get the chance to pick up on your pattern and ps/cancel out/avoid/safely reflect all of them. If you're imprecise with your execution you deny me that chance, whether by inability to be precise or, even better, choice as that leaves you able to do perfect PKFs when you need them.

 

[D e l t a]

@ Badge lol I understood what you're saying. It's an interesting point nonetheless.

 

[NTHPlayr]

Besides the neutral what follow ups can happen when you land a PKF?

 

[D e l t a]

Besides the neutral what follow ups can happen when you land a PKF?

Are you asking what attacks Lucas combos into from a PKF hit confirm?

 

[NTHPlayr]

Yeah. Can you follow up with a smash attack, or another PKF (if possible), a grab, a combo, etc.

 

[Scraket]

Yeah. Can you follow up with a smash attack, or another PKF (if possible), a grab, a combo, etc.

There are so many follow ups from a djc pkf confirm that can lead into combos including jc grab, magnet, and aerials. An fsmash can connect if you are close enough, and a DACUS can connect if you are at the correct range of course.
Keep in mind that this is assuming that you DJC PK Freeze, so this would be something to work on if you can't. A grounded Pk freeze btw has much less options.
I recommend checking out the guide written by @ D e l t a if you have already not. It goes over things like this and many more.

 

[NTHPlayr]

There are so many follow ups from a djc pkf confirm that can lead into combos including jc grab, magnet, and aerials. An fsmash can connect if you are close enough, and a DACUS can connect if you are at the correct range of course.
Keep in mind that this is assuming that you DJC PK Freeze, so this would be something to work on if you can't. A grounded Pk freeze btw has much less options.
I recommend checking out the guide written by @ D e l t a if you have already not. It goes over things like this and many more.

Thanks Scraket! I'll keep that in mind whenever a PKF hits.

 

[D e l t a]

Helo. I did a thing

I recommend checking out the guide written by @ D e l t a if you have already not. It goes over things like this and many more.

I'm actually not sure if I cover PKF followups lol. I know I cover many other aspects & combos. Ground PKF doesn't combo into anything at all (despite the frames removed from startup & end lag in 3.6). DJC PKF only means that you'll be able to cancel the apex of your jump earlier and perform more PKF because you don't have to wait for the rise & fall of a jump before using a PKF. You'll still get the same followups if you SH PKF (look at Doctor X's Lucas- he short hops PKF)

==

Here's a simple flowchart for PKF followups:

Floaties
Grab at low % At higher % only if they're bad at avoiding PKF / grab followups / don't always jump out of hitstun
Fair & Nair are the better aerials to use
DACUS / Fsmash if you're spaced correctly

Midweights
Nair/Fair/Dair - apply as the situation demands
Grab - same as above.
Fsmash (Upsmash / DACUS is too slow most times)

Fast fallers / heavies
Dependent on how often they CC and how aware they are to avoid followups. Explained in more detail below.
Grab
Nair - best followup IMO & feels the most guaranteed
Dair - sometimes
Dash attack - after 50%
Magnet -> aerial (Bair/Uair) (low-mid %)
Magnet -> WD back (mid-high %)

Full explanation

Spoiler

Floaties
Low % can get a grab, at higher % you have to wait a short while, otherwise you'll look like Neon vs floaties. Floaties can jump, air dodge, or attack out of PKF hitstun at most %'s, so keep this in mind.

Fair & Uair are good, close range followups that lead into juggles (or kills above 150%)

First few hits of Nair can lead into any of Nair's followups (another Nair, Dair, Fair, etc). At about 130% or so depending on DI, the last hit of Nair has just enough knockback to kill and is really easy to land the last hit out of a PKF.

PKF -> Dacus is easiest on floaties. They get popped up just high enough that you can land underneath them and the Upsmash hitbox will come out before they can counterattack. Fsmash works well at most %'s. Be sure to angle upwards, especially past 50% or so.

Midweights
Against midweights like Mario, PKF followups are tricky. They're at a weight & fall speed that doesn't always allow for followups. I will typically use the following moves on them:

Nair - same as above, only it won't kill until 135 or higher.

Fair - the optimal followup in most cases

Dair - due to their weight & fall speed. Midweights on average, like to CC a lot, but wait for your attacks before reacting. Dair can't be CC'd and will sometimes pop them up.

Grab works at most %'s. Be smart with the timings and account for the PKF pop-up + frames before grab is active.

DACUS doesn't seem to work as much, but Fsmash usually works best on these types of characters.

Heavies / fast fallers
This ranges from the DK family to Falcon to Spacies. Observe how often they CC. If you get a hit confirm, there's a few attacks that can be safe to followup with as they fall back to the ground quickly below 30-40%.

If you're close enough and they don't CC -> shield a lot, followup with Dair. Fast fallers can get punished extremely hard from 1 Dair starting up a combo.
Nair also beats CC, is quick, and can lead to a lot on fast fallers. This is my most recommended move to use after a PKF on fast fallers.
Fair is alright, but only the sweetspot is truly worth hitting. The reward for sourspot under 70% is not good at all.
Grabs are good if they don't fast fall -> spot dodge / roll / counter attack after PKF hits. Starts up big damage at low % and sets up for ledge guards / kill opportunities at higher %'s
Dash attack after 50%, especially on fast fallers like Spacies. Leads to big damage.

 

[NTHPlayr]

Helo. I did a thing



I'm actually not sure if I cover PKF followups lol. I know I cover many other aspects & combos. Ground PKF doesn't combo into anything at all (despite the frames removed from startup & end lag in 3.6). DJC PKF only means that you'll be able to cancel the apex of your jump earlier and perform more PKF because you don't have to wait for the rise & fall of a jump before using a PKF. You'll still get the same followups if you SH PKF (look at Doctor X's Lucas- he short hops PKF)

==

Here's a simple flowchart for PKF followups:

Floaties
Grab at low % At higher % only if they're bad at avoiding PKF / grab followups / don't always jump out of hitstun
Fair & Nair are the better aerials to use
DACUS / Fsmash if you're spaced correctly

Midweights
Nair/Fair/Dair - apply as the situation demands
Grab - same as above.
Fsmash (Upsmash / DACUS is too slow most times)

Fast fallers / heavies
Dependent on how often they CC and how aware they are to avoid followups. Explained in more detail below.
Grab
Nair - best followup IMO & feels the most guaranteed
Dair - sometimes
Dash attack - after 50%
Magnet -> aerial (Bair/Uair) (low-mid %)
Magnet -> WD back (mid-high %)

Full explanation

Spoiler

Floaties
Low % can get a grab, at higher % you have to wait a short while, otherwise you'll look like Neon vs floaties. Floaties can jump, air dodge, or attack out of PKF hitstun at most %'s, so keep this in mind.

Fair & Uair are good, close range followups that lead into juggles (or kills above 150%)

First few hits of Nair can lead into any of Nair's followups (another Nair, Dair, Fair, etc). At about 130% or so depending on DI, the last hit of Nair has just enough knockback to kill and is really easy to land the last hit out of a PKF.

PKF -> Dacus is easiest on floaties. They get popped up just high enough that you can land underneath them and the Upsmash hitbox will come out before they can counterattack. Fsmash works well at most %'s. Be sure to angle upwards, especially past 50% or so.

Midweights
Against midweights like Mario, PKF followups are tricky. They're at a weight & fall speed that doesn't always allow for followups. I will typically use the following moves on them:

Nair - same as above, only it won't kill until 135 or higher.

Fair - the optimal followup in most cases

Dair - due to their weight & fall speed. Midweights on average, like to CC a lot, but wait for your attacks before reacting. Dair can't be CC'd and will sometimes pop them up.

Grab works at most %'s. Be smart with the timings and account for the PKF pop-up + frames before grab is active.

DACUS doesn't seem to work as much, but Fsmash usually works best on these types of characters.

Heavies / fast fallers
This ranges from the DK family to Falcon to Spacies. Observe how often they CC. If you get a hit confirm, there's a few attacks that can be safe to followup with as they fall back to the ground quickly below 30-40%.

If you're close enough and they don't CC -> shield a lot, followup with Dair. Fast fallers can get punished extremely hard from 1 Dair starting up a combo.
Nair also beats CC, is quick, and can lead to a lot on fast fallers. This is my most recommended move to use after a PKF on fast fallers.
Fair is alright, but only the sweetspot is truly worth hitting. The reward for sourspot under 70% is not good at all.
Grabs are good if they don't fast fall -> spot dodge / roll / counter attack after PKF hits. Starts up big damage at low % and sets up for ledge guards / kill opportunities at higher %'s
Dash attack after 50%, especially on fast fallers like Spacies. Leads to big damage.

Well this pretty much answers my question on PKF followups.

 

[D e l t a]

Well this pretty much answers my question on PKF followups.