Any Legitimate Uses for Vanilla Up Throw and/or Down Throw?

[Luigi Linguine]

I'm a big fan of DK, and after playing as him the other day, I couldn't help but wonder if his up throw and down throw had any niche use over his other throws. On the surface, they appear pretty worthless, but it just seems odd to me that back throw would be his only useful non-cargo throw with how good his grab game is. If there are any DK experts out there reading this, I'd love if you could clarify whether or not up throw and/or down throw have any real applications no matter how situational they may be.

 

[Luigi Linguine]

I've taken the liberty of testing those two throws for a bit and I did manage to come up with something.

First off, his down throw appears to be the more usable of the two. For example, if an opposing Mario fails to DI, it can be used to set up a tech chase between 27-69%. This is especially notable because unless the opponent specifically DI's down, 90% of the cast will be able to jump out of a grounded cargo down throw even at 0%. That being said, if they DI up for the down throw, this setup doesn't work against anyone.

Up throw is... something, alright. It deals less damage and has more BKB than cargo up throw, but never kills, so finding a legitimate use for this move was pretty tough. Unless I missed someone, it can be used to set up a tech chase on Battlefield's top platform against a grand total of two characters: Ganondorf and Bowser, both at exactly 0%. For whatever reason, a grounded cargo up throw won't send Ganondorf high enough to land on the platform despite only being the fifth heaviest character. On the other hand, Bowser DOES get sent high enough, however a grounded cargo up throw just won't send him into tumble at 0, while a regular up throw will. Yeah, I have no idea why this is only a thing for Bowser, but it just is. Hey, at least we can say Jigglypuff's up throw is worse!

As for follow ups, you can punish a missed tech from down throw with a down tilt or jab 1 into Giant Punch or down smash if you don't have one charged, while dash attack can be used to punish tech in place or tech away depending on the character and stage positioning. Up throw was a bigger question mark, but after some testing, I found the optimal missed tech punish in terms of sheer damage. You'll want to full hop neutral air into double jump sourspot back air for the jab lock (fade back a little bit after the neutral air so that the back air doesn't whiff), then finish it off with a Spinning Kong, dealing 60.4% in total. If you're having trouble landing the back air, you can instead full hop neutral air for the jab lock into a buffered double jump up air, which deals a still respectable 42.8%. You can even string into an up tilt afterwards since you'll land on the top platform almost immediately after the up air, but I'm pretty sure it's never true. Finally, neutral air is your best bet to cover their options if they manage to tech due to its lasting hitbox.

Edit: When I initially tested these throws, I forgot to turn on stale moves, so I've fixed up the percentages and replaced K. Rool with Bowser for the up throw setup.

 

[Big O]

I've taken the liberty of testing those two throws for a bit and I did manage to come up with something.

First off, his down throw appears to be the more usable of the two. For example, if an opposing Mario fails to DI, it can be used to set up a tech chase between 28-70%. This is especially notable because unless the opponent specifically DI's down, 90% of the cast will be able to jump out of a grounded cargo down throw even at 0%. That being said, if they DI up for the down throw, this setup doesn't work against anyone.

Up throw is... something, alright. It deals less damage and has more BKB than cargo up throw, but never kills, so finding a legit use for this move was pretty tough. Unless I missed someone, it can be used to set up a tech chase on Battlefield's top platform against a grand total of two characters: Ganondorf between 0-1% and K. Rool at only 0%. For whatever reason, a grounded cargo up throw in that tiny percent range won't send Ganondorf high enough to land on the platform despite only being the fifth heaviest character. On the other hand, K. Rool DOES get sent high enough, however a grounded cargo up throw just won't send him into tumble at 0, while a regular up throw will. Yeah, I have no idea why this is only a thing for K. Rool, but it just is. Hey, at least we can say Jigglypuff's up throw is worse!

As for follow ups, you can punish a missed tech from down throw with a down tilt or jab 1 into Giant Punch or down smash if you don't have one charged, while dash attack can be used to punish tech in place or tech away depending on the character and stage positioning. Up throw was a bigger question mark, but after some testing, I found a couple missed tech punishes. Against K. Rool, you'll want to full hop neutral air into double jump sourspot back air for the jab lock, then finish it off with a Spinning Kong, dealing 56.4% in total. I couldn't seem to land the sourspot back air against Ganondorf (though I may have just been timing it poorly), so I instead went with full hop sweetspot back air for the jab lock into a buffered double jump down air, which deals a still respectable 45.6%. Unfortunately, Ganondorf can jump before landing on the platform again, so you won't be able to extend the tech chase unless your opponent isn't paying attention. Finally, neutral air is your best bet to cover their options if they manage to tech due to its lasting hitbox.

I've said a lot already, but if anyone has anything more to add, please do!

Both of those throws are unfortunately outclassed by DK's Cargo versions.

Regular Dthrow can work to force a tech chase, but against someone who is alert you they will either DI up and jump or just tech it. It is better at forcing a tech scenario than Cargo Dthrow (CDT), but since it won't work if they DI up anyway, it isn't worth going for. CDT does more damage, can be move before the throw, and has better frame advantage. It'd have a cool niche if Dthrow had a quake hitbox when he slams them, but right now it just sucks.

Regular Uthrow is only decent vs Rosa if you don't want to Bthrow her towards center stage. Cargo Uthrow (CUT) is just better in every way aside from Luma being able to interrupt it. You can just short hop CUT to put them at top platform height if it doesn't work at 0% from the ground. Regular Uthrow needs an overhaul to actually be useful. Even if it did 2x the damage it would just be okay.

 

[Luigi Linguine]

Both of those throws are unfortunately outclassed by DK's Cargo versions.

Regular Dthrow can work to force a tech chase, but against someone who is alert you they will either DI up and jump or just tech it. It is better at forcing a tech scenario than Cargo Dthrow (CDT), but since it won't work if they DI up anyway, it isn't worth going for. CDT does more damage, can be move before the throw, and has better frame advantage. It'd have a cool niche if Dthrow had a quake hitbox when he slams them, but right now it just sucks.

Regular Uthrow is only decent vs Rosa if you don't want to Bthrow her towards center stage. Cargo Uthrow (CUT) is just better in every way aside from Luma being able to interrupt it. You can just short hop CUT to put them at top platform height if it doesn't work at 0% from the ground. Regular Uthrow needs an overhaul to actually be useful. Even if it did 2x the damage it would just be okay.

Thank you very much for the input! I hadn't considered the Rosa matchup, so that's a helpful tip to keep in mind. I would still say that regular up throw is better than CUT at setting up a tech chase in the specific scenario that I mentioned though because the opposing Ganondorf would have ample time to mash out before DK could jump, wait, then throw at the exact elevation for CUT to work at 0.

Beyond that, I would probably never go for either up throw or down throw in an actual match despite the theoretical uses that I found from testing. If down throw received a lower launch angle and had its animation sped up to make reaction more difficult and if up throw had its damage significantly increased as you said, they may start to have a more well-defined niche in singles. I'm not holding my breath for the balance team to acknowledge them seeing how forgettable they are, but you never know!